With the test session behind us, thanks to all who showed up to provide us with relevant information, the next step is to analyze it:
Please continue here with the discussion and provide your opinion with (only) arguments which can be validated. We will apply a BS filter, so don't waste your efforts of writings something down which will be filtered out. Also include in your post if you're referring to GT1 or GT2.
As a reminder: The goal is to see how the overall cars (GT1 & GT2) are balanced for the whole league, not just one race.
We'll be announcing any possible changes before next weekend.
Ok so, the XRR was quite weak here but we seemed to have fixed the problem of our crappy pace and can get quite close to the FZR except for the fastest lap I think.
39.1 was my best in a stint I just done, still think that the FZR is quite alot faster as I saw Bas doing a 51.5 split earlier (I think) which is good for mid 38s, but whatever, it's not as bad as it was atleast.
Don't think that the FZR is quite fast enough for a weight penalty, although I bet when we see Chris hauling past us in the race i'll wish I didn't say that.
If anyone needs to compare the times for any blaancing questions I done my stint online so the laps are on there.
Hey all. Bad weather here put my internet out for a day and a half... :banghead:
I am liking the results I am seeing, and the discussion on this. At the moment I can see the XRR being pretty consistent with 2:40 times and high 2:39s. If a good lap is done, I assume a low 2:39.xx Bawbag? But the FZR still does some faster times on average it seems.
However, what is the tire wear like? XRR can go what... 2-4 laps more than the FZR I assume? XRR stint = 28-30 laps? FZR stint = 23-25 laps? Did you have damage to repair at your stops, they seem longer than Darkone's.
Doesn't a slight increase in weight on the FZR seem logical?
Well, the FZR seemed slightly faster. But, remember this is an FZR track. Also, the XRR and FZR both had to stop once in this race. In the 24 hours, the XRR will have to stop less then the FZR.
And, while I was racing I noticed the XRRs didn't have any clutch heat. One little mistake in the FZR and the clutch is overheated.
In all honesty, I think Chris can do 2.38 mid in the XRR aswell. It's funny, the Merc guys have been practising for weeks, Chris drives in the race for the first time and is such a lot faster? I doubt so..
BTW, I did a 1.51.59. But the best I could possibly get is 2.39.8? Am I being so slow in the last sector?
I think it's just a matter of time really, as it seems like the X patch setups don't quite work in the current patch we're on. I am going to test a few more days with the XRR, i'm quite sure it's good for a 2.38.5~ on a qualifying lap with r3 tyres, also with the set i'm on now.
I also bet that the Mercs could do better than that, considering all their experience with the XRR. Guess they just needed a push to get it going
All in all, i want to test a few more days before the discussions of weight penalties starts - if there will be any though. It looks better now, but i still think this car has got some more potential than we see atm, though it's just a guess
EDIT: Just checked your stint Ray, very nicely driven! It's reminding me a bit of the old characteristics of the XRR now, as i've never seen any FZR do a 39 on the 6th lap.
Both car seems quite equal the first 15 laps, but after that it's definately possible for the fzr to do a 38. Remember that the XRR is starting with 95% now, allmost equal with the FZR. In patch X the XRR usually started off with 20 - 25% less than the FZR on most tracks, which is quite a difference in weight. Therefore the XRR had a advantage the first 10 - 12 laps on tracks like this.
When 15 laps have passed now the XRR has around 50% fuel left, while the FZR has 39%, so it's no wonder that this car hos an advantage after this. Therefore, seeing Bawbag setting his best laptime with allmost half a tank left of fuel is not bad at all
The r3 tyres gets quite cold in the end however, but there should be some room for improvement here?
I don't think the XRR can do mid 38's in the race, maybe squeeze a 38 but even that is still extremely fast. The reason we were so slow up untill now was the tyre pressures that we ran in the front tyres, I had a good 4-5 less in my fronts than Chris in the test race, thinking that it would be an advantage in the last 10 laps of the stint, but last night when I drove with more psi the tyres were colder but somehow still had quite alot of speed in them.
Btw, why do you doubt that Chris can come in and be faster? Practicing for weeks should be more, practicing for days.
The only way I see us doing some good 38s in the race is if our last stint is a short one, then the tyres will be optimum for the low fuel laps.
Tweak, I had a little damage from a crazy irishman at the start of the race () and it seems to have cost me 20 odd seconds in the pitlane, Jonesy popped a tyre at the beginning of his lap and I wa sjust behind him when he did, in all the time that it took him to tickle around the track, do his pitstop and all that he comes out 5 seconds behind. New longer damage fixing stuff is quite annoying though.
GT1:
I haven't followed that much through the whole season but the FXR seems to be way off the pace. I know it was not the main focus for this test, but if I would be driving this car, it would be really frustrating to be so much slower and even have to use r4 tires on the front.
GT2:
Sadly only one car finished which gave no clues...
Only that there is a huge speed difference between Mercury and the Core XRR...
Well the there could be different reasons for that but mainly could be setups, i see core are using about 10/9 or 9/8 downforce with there top speed but considering the gt2 of merc have got the setup almost perfect.
GT2 fxr teams are going almost 31 laps with r3s and xrr going 21-25 laps on r2s. There's good and bad advantages with each car but we need to wait for the final setting with are given for this car.
GT2:
Sidi did 23 laps, with his average lap (inc pit) being 2:51:796 (correction: he didnt re-fuel fully, only to the end, the n00b, +3sec for 60% rather than about 20% = 2:51.919)
Only problem is we havent seen a proper stint from the FXR to know what its average would be.
I suspect our other 2 drivers could get that down to 2:51.6 our intentionally faster drivers tend to wear the tyres pushing it harder, so get less laps out of it, then we have a couple who tend to drive more sensibly and get more laps from the tyres, Sidi seems to be able to do both, just without quite hitting the silly quick laps. So it could be that because they do 2 laps less we lose what they gain by going faster, dunno yet, and despite all the practicing we've done most nights it seems the T7R server has a lower rate of gravety as most of us managed a new PB at some point, i think that was down to a minor change in the set more than anything, still looking (and occasionally finding) the occasional gain from the setup. At least in this session we cant be accused of sandbagging with the number of PB improvements made out there.
3J, the reason i was saying your stint wasnt a fair representation is down to the fact that you didnt complete a full stint, you did 14 laps, spun out, pitting adding something like 70-75% fuel into a car currently holding about 25-35% of fuel and then did 18 laps in a far heavier car than it'd ever be, never driving the car when its at its optimal, so thats why im saying its a joke to just ignore than and add 5sec and it makes things all rosey. You'd be losing tons of time every single lap you did because it'd be far heavier, so how you could consider it fair ive no idea.
Doing that gives you an average lap only 0.15 slower than BBO, and we both know thats not accurate.
Unless someone can say otherwise, im pretty sure the method im using is about as fair & accurate as possible. If you do your normal race stint, pit in, and do a lap or 2 more then stop. Get the laps done in the race, then ignore the first lap done from a standing start, and use the lap after you've pitted.
So thats lap 2-20, the pitstop lap (21) and the outlap (22) and then total that up and divide it by the number of laps you've done.
If you balance the cars so the times are identical (or as near as) then it means if you did 1000 laps, effectively if every stint was ran in the same way those cars would finish at the same time, how pits when and how often doesnt matter because its worked into the average.
If its claimed one car should be faster round a given track, then you just balance the average so they're say 0.4sec different, so after 30 laps in theory they'd be 12sec behind. If anyone that understands the above, can see a fault, then point it out, but pit-stops & their frequency are taken into account fairly, the rest would be down to the admins to decide how close to balance them.
eg
if car A did 6 laps of 1min, and a 1min stop, it totals 7 min to do 6 laps
if car B did 3 laps of 30sec, and a 2min stop, it totals 3min 30 to do 3 laps, 7min to do 6.
total stint time (inc pit) / laps done = racing average
6x 1min = 6min + 1min pit (=7m), divided by 6 = 1min 10sec average
3x 30sec = 1m30 + 2min pit (=3m30) divided by 3 = 1min 10sec average
So no matter how frequently you pit, or how much faster you are, its accurate. All it needs is a fair representation of what the car can do in the form of a full stint with pitstop, the highs and the lows the car goes through during that are then taken into account. Its not what each person can do with it, but what its capable of doing, if your not capable of matching that, thats something for the driver to sort out.
So, anyone see fault in that, or why it shouldnt be used to tell whether or not they're balanced all to the level the admins feel fit??
While we were busy 'sandbagging' (as you imply) Chris was using a setup which by his own admittion was cold 2/3 into the stint, his 2nd attempt was still slightly quicker (5sec faster over 24 laps), but still had cold tyres on lap 24 when he finished, so he was certainly being helped by being faster in the bits he did do, but as he never finished a full stint you didnt get to see the drop-off.
Still, from what i gather (I helped Jonesy figure it out) if we can go say 0.2 faster but only manage 28 laps, we'd be slightly better off than going a little slower and going a few laps further, and with some help from Chris it seems judging by the laps bawbag did last night he's improved the average slightly so hopefully we can find a little more from the setup to narrow it down a bit more. But we dont really have anything to compare/balance it against because it seems some people dont want things balanced, seems a bizarre coincidence some teams have decided not to help get involved in balancing these cars, but if thats how they want to do things then fair enough, at least a fair few have some class in them.
Hey Chris (and other FZR drivers), can you test +30kg weight handicap on the FZR for me? Just do +30kg, I want to know what times are like with that actually.
After some thorough testing today, I am ready to share my views and ideas with the rest of you.
Earlier today I was playing table-tennis on a miniature table, and as a result of the table being shorter than usual it was more difficult to hit the ball fast, while still landing it on the table. Also, contrary to my expectations, the bumpy side of the bat appeared to grip the ball better than the smooth side.*
I did not limit my extensive testing to table-tennis, however. During the afternoon I was feeling a bit peckish, and started looking around for some nibbles. First I hate a banana. It was rather brown and over-ripe; it tasted very dry and took quite a long time to eat. After this I noticed some chocolate-chip cookies in the kitchen, they were nice and crunchie and I ate them much more quickly than the brown banana. The cookies were much smaller in volume than the banana. An interesting aside is that both of the foods had a circular cross-section.
Later on, while watching the excellent film 'City of God', it was clearly demonstrated that people will drive faster if someone is shooting at them from behind. The film also featured some motorcycles, which seemed very slow in comparison to even a very average road car.
Finally, looking at the car specs on the official LFS website, it is interesting to note that the XRR has a "turbocharged inline 4", whereas the FZR only has a "flat 6", which doesn't sound anywhere near as fast. This evidence suggests that the XRR is much faster on the straights.
According to Paul, Mercury are actually lapping in just 30 seconds with their XRR. This is around 5.5 times faster than the FZR is able to manage.
Converting all of the above research into a solid solution to our balancing issues was not easy to do, but I think I've now got a pretty satisfactory solution for everyone.
Due to the extremely large margin seperating the FZR and XRR (the XRR is currently 5.5 times faster), it is not only necessary to slow the XRR down, but also to speed the FZR up.
Combining the table-tennis research with the engine specs, it seems obvious that if we made the track smaller, and therefore slower, the XRR's top speed advantage over the FZR would be reduced. We also now know that rubber with tiny bumps on is more grippy than the smooth stuff, therefore instead of using slick tyres the FZR should use ones with lots of tiny bumps. This will increase grip resulting in higher cornering speeds, while also looking cooler than slick tyres.
The banana and cookie research provides the means not only to speed up the FZR, but also to slow down the XRR. It has clearly been demonstrated that brown things are slow, and small things fast. Therefore, I suggest that all XRR teams should be forced to apply a 30% brown filter to their skins. To speed the FZRs up, we should simply make the cars smaller. It is, however, unclear whether or not circular objects move faster or slower. I suggest further research in this area.
Lastly, the film provided some more valuable ideas. I don't know how easy it would be to implement, but giving the stewards guns in order that they may shoot at the back of FZRs should speed those cars up significantly; I estimate by approximately 8 celsius. This also provides the means to perform live balancing should it be necessary, as the stewards can shoot bits off the cars in order to slow them down. The final piece of the puzzle is the motorcycle, which was clearly shown to be much slower than a car. Therefore, if we were to remove two wheels from the XRR it would slow down significantly.
I predict that after these changes the two cars will be extremely evenly balanced. For the FXR I think we should just add 30kg to the XRR and FZR.
I apologize in advance if any of my suggestions seem particularly obvious.
*It should also be noted that the bats being used were of a particularly poor standard.
So far, I agree on that we need a proper fxr stint to be sure
Anyway I actually refilled 8% less than I would do in race. The stint from that on was pretty so as I expected it. You can do about 3 faster laps on new Tires, than they drop for the next 8 laps or so due heating up and then get better. Tires on FXR peak around lap 19 - 20 (my last lap) and drop then again due not enough heat. So I think i didn't lost that much time from the early pitting. Not to mention that the leading xrr was already over 25 secs ahead on lap 14 (where I crashed). Even Sidi, who passed me on lap 2 or so was 22 secs in front of me. Thats already that what you loose on a pitstop, 10 laps before you actually pit
I have nothing against the XRR being a bit faster, cause It's harder to drive, but as it's now it's just way too fast.
I've already had a chat with Tweak, he sneaked onto our TS to discuss the GT2 cars, and I confirmed its without a doubt completely unbalanced (doesnt take a genious to figure that out) and he suggested the FXR might be made a bit quicker (ie 22-24% restriction) which IMO is a good idea, it makes your car much faster because the straight line speed difference really is a joke, that straight in the last sector you can be quite a bit behind and suddenly your into the slipstream and flying past the FXR car which doesnt provide good racing for anyone. At the same time it has a slightly negative effect on the tyres, and hopefully brings it closer to the XRR, meaning the strategies arent all that different, speeds arent that different, and we get entertaining racing from it.
I'd be more than happy if the cars were rebalanced each round to ensure it was always close and entertaining, the one thing i hate is uncompetitive races, you dont want fights with one class and seperate fights within the other, you want everyone in there together, the characteristics of the cars should just be down to personal preference and marginally bias to the hardest to drive or one mostly likely to have problems, not what it currently is so the FXR isnt competitive simply because its easier.
My only concern is i dont feel we have a true representation of what the FXR can do, and without any intended offense, i dont think its fair to make an equally quick car faster because the people driving it arent able to drive it to its limit. I say the exact same thing regarding the GT1 balancing, at the moment its quite disappointing the truely quick GT1 drivers seem reluctant to show what their car can do, making it much harder for anyone to know if its geniunely balanced to the level it was before the patch (or better in the GT1 FXR's case!) and im pretty sure thats what most people want, but its becoming apparent some dont.
As i said to Tweak, the only true way of knowing what the cars are capable of doing, each driving the alternative car, the XRR guys push the FZR as far as they can, fastest stint is considered the benchmark, the FZR guys push the XRR, and thats the 2nd benchmark, neither will sandbag to have a little extra hidden in reserve, and the balance should be far more reliable than going off what people say is 100% when its really 95%.
I'd be willing to give our current setup to an FXR team for them to validate its at its limits if anyone wishes, likewise if anyone wishes to volunteer theres, and anything we find works better we'll hand over, Chris has definately helped us realise we could go quicker by running less laps and a slighly more aggressive setup (ie shorter life), and its meant less of a restriction needed and we're going quicker under our own efforts (own + chris's at least).
Eitherway, provided it turns out equal when we get to the race, thats all that matters. Im all behind making the FXR quicker rather than making the XRR heavier or slower, its already annoying being lapped every 5 sec as it is so hopefully Tweak will give the thumbs up to test with a new restriction so we can find a solution asap and know where we all stand.
Sorry for none of the Fusion guys showing up at the testrace, unfortunately the timing just didn't work out for us.
We're planning on doing a test race tomorrow night (8th Jan) however, approx 90 mins in length, if any of the other MoE teams want to come along, they'll be more than welcome. (If we we get more than 32 drivers showing up, we'll sort out a 2nd server)
We'll set the server password to the normal MoE password for the night.
server - Fusion MoE
warmup/quali - 19:00 UTC
race start - 20:00 UTC
Erm i was just intersted in why would you want a heavier xrr? If fxr is too slow just make it fasta, and thats it. And that way you can have more ppl doing fxr tests, varying form 25% restriction and down, maybe even 2-3 different restriction, cutting down on intake % graduatly. And the absence of fzr makes things that much easier, and bottom line i dont think sidid testing is relevant info :P, hes just too fast.
K was joking a bit, but idea behind making xrr heavier is -1 from me, as stated above.
