Quote from March Hare :

In real life they heat up from deformation too.
This is why tyres heat up even when driving in a straight line. The tyres sidewalls and contact patch are squished by the cars weight and that is what creates the deformation while driving normally, in real life.

Just FYI, LFS tyres do this too

Simply set the tyre pressure really low or set extreme camber angles, then drive along in a straight line - the tyres will heat up, especially the sidewall. After long exposure to high sidewall and air temps even the rim will heat up.

As I told you on MSN, I'm a bit disapointed from you. You have been playing for much longer than me, and I was expecting this patch to be a great improvement for everyone. I don't know why are you complaining, really. Look, I'm still a noob, I got a lot to learn about LFS, but I wasn't the one throughing on floor and starting to cry when the new patch came out. This is a bit silly, considering your drifting experience is from far much better than mine. I really don't get why the drifter I used to consider like a 'pro' is complaining about the tires wearing out too fast. Ah well, maybe it's just because you can't be arsed to adapt your technique or update your setup.

Jonathan

i agree whit that thread
and about the smoke, when drifters got high temp on lfs and theres a smoke behind the tyres on straight roads when the tyres arent spining is not realistic at all, probly to mutch smoke, its not like the tyres was on fire ,if it was i could understand but its not..its supose to give more smoke when the car is powersliding only so that need to be fixed to make the game be more realistic though..

yep, if lfs may to be realistic - tires can't smoking on straights as flames from hell..
when you are sliding around corner - hot tire should smoking, but not on straight, without slide.
and more grip level for road tires when they are hot will be sweet.
now, when tires are hot (+/- 100*) there's no differents between drifting and without slide - tires are smoking as dragons

..sry for my english, but i hope you understand this post :P

Quote from Ricou :

LFS Patch Y change list:


I'd really like to know how long you can drift a car IRL before your tyres lose all grip.

I can't say for sure, but normal road tires, or even the highest grade road legal tires can't take nearly the amount of punishment I've seen them go through in this game.

However, My boss had a little fun drifting on a road up north, and his brakes gave out before his tires did, but those are stock brakes.

i am drifting in this game since some years now AND i am drifting in RL
BUT
the tire heat/grip isnt realistic imo, lets say, road normal is a Conti Premium Contact, maybe a sebring or kleber
maybe its just my imagination, but those tires arent losing AT ALL so much grip like the tires in lfs do if they heat up

if the tires in lfs would be realistic, daaaaaammmmn, after 30minutes drifting IRL with a set of tires, i could do 500meter drifts on a straight with a 180sx because the tires wouldnt had any grip anymore because they are so hot
now THAT's what i call realistic

Quote from IDA-Itsuki :

i am drifting in this game since some years now AND i am drifting in RL
BUT
the tire heat/grip isnt realistic imo, lets say, road normal is a Conti Premium Contact, maybe a sebring or kleber
maybe its just my imagination, but those tires arent losing AT ALL so much grip like the tires in lfs do if they heat up

if the tires in lfs would be realistic, daaaaaammmmn, after 30minutes drifting IRL with a set of tires, i could do 500meter drifts on a straight with a 180sx because the tires wouldnt had any grip anymore because they are so hot
now THAT's what i call realistic

Post a replay of you drifting in LFS.

My guess is that when you drift in LFS one of the following is the cause of your problem.

1) You are FAR FAR more brutal in your LFS drifting than IRL because fear and G force do not give the feedback you are used to IRL.

2) The time you spend drifting is probably longer than IRL and you wait far less between runs etc.

3) Your setup in LFS might not be realisstic or relate to the car you drift IRL. Compare the two. MANY LFS setups are far from realistic because you do not have to worry about broken car parts. You don't even have to worry about the forces on the human in the car.

What diff and settings in the diff do you use IRL compared to LFS. If you have un-modified car you are probably on an OPEN diff while most drift setups in LFS used LOCKED diffs.

There is much to make even between the two before you can compare. Not saying LFS is 100% BTW, just that you need to compare apples with apples

HTH

Quote from AndroidXP :

Just FYI, LFS tyres do this too

They do? Great!
Oops, I mean: Whine whine LFS is too realistic and I can't drive anymore!

Quote from Woz :

Post a replay of you drifting in LFS.

My guess is that when you drift in LFS one of the following is the cause of your problem.

1) You are FAR FAR more brutal in your LFS drifting than IRL because fear and G force do not give the feedback you are used to IRL.

2) The time you spend drifting is probably longer than IRL and you wait far less between runs etc.

3) Your setup in LFS might not be realisstic or relate to the car you drift IRL. Compare the two. MANY LFS setups are far from realistic because you do not have to worry about broken car parts. You don't even have to worry about the forces on the human in the car.

What diff and settings in the diff do you use IRL compared to LFS. If you have un-modified car you are probably on an OPEN diff while most drift setups in LFS used LOCKED diffs.

There is much to make even between the two before you can compare. Not saying LFS is 100% BTW, just that you need to compare apples with apples

HTH

did you realy read my post? hm dont think so
it doesnt matter which car you are driving or which setup it has
tires ARENT losing their WHOLE grip because of overheating

do a burnout and heat the tires up to the maximum
now try to make a 500m drift on a STRAIGHT road

doesnt work? uh well, it does in lfs

btw my diff is welded

What temps, both core and surface, and what LFS compound are you using in real life?

Quote from tristancliffe :

What temps, both core and surface, and what LFS compound are you using in real life?

He uses Road_Normal, obvisouly.

Which brands sell them though?

Quote from IDA-Itsuki :

did you realy read my post? hm dont think so
it doesnt matter which car you are driving or which setup it has
tires ARENT losing their WHOLE grip because of overheating

do a burnout and heat the tires up to the maximum
now try to make a 500m drift on a STRAIGHT road

doesnt work? uh well, it does in lfs

btw my diff is welded

Please post an SPR of you heating your tyres up to "maximum" (Impossible BTW as they will pop) and then show a vid of you doing the same IRL.

What I was pointing out that MANY MANY people think they drive realistically in LFS yet they drive NOTHING like they would IRL. This is due to the fact you just do not have the same feedback.

So your tyres IRL might NOT be as hot as you believe. Also if you car is NOT setup as the LFS car you are still doing an apples vs cake compare, not apples vs apples.

Hence the question on your DIFF. Use have locked so that is the same, what about all the other factors. Cambre, susspension settings etc etc. ALL will change how the tyres contact the road and hence effect the outsome.

Now do you understand what I was saying?

I've heard the same though, race tyres are good but read tyres are REALLY insensitive to temperate, far less so than road tyres in LFS. I've not seen any first hand data though.

Some interesting little bits of info about rubber and tyres to ponder:

- rubber is a poor conductor of heat, while metal is a good conductor of heat. (different compounds have different characteristics though, the softer compounds may transfer heat more readily than the harder compounds, street legal road tyres would fall into the harder compound category I suspect)

- tyres generate heat mainly due to the rubber being manipulated, not so much by friction. (i.e. A bi-product of force being transmitted through the tyres is heat)

- friction heats the surface alot but doesn't impact the body of the tyre as much - talking about treaded road tyres mainly here.

- heating the outside of a new tyre too rapidly, causes the rubber to harden changing its chemical charateristics and reducing its lifespan considerably. This happens because the outside will heat rapidly while the main body of the tyre doesn't, hence why tyre manufactures advise scrubbing in a new set of tyres, which just means gently bring the tyres up to normal operating temperature.

- locking a tyre causes an isolated spot to 'superheat' turning the surface of the rubber into a molten state which then behaves like a lubricant.

Based on these points I would also suspect that in particular the road tyres in LFS have still got a fair amount of development to be done yet Some thoughts that come to mind are:

- road tyres (treaded) have alot more surface area exposed to the air than slicks so therefore should have a much greater cooling effect on the skin of the tyre.

- road tyres are more likely to be more resistant to heat transfer (due to harder compounds) than slicks and therefore should not transfer heat from friction anywhere near as much as they do now.

- treaded road tyres behave different to slicks near the limit (tread walking) and therefore the frictional heat model would be dramatically different to slicks.

- from what I understand alot of the tyre heat in a road car comes from the wheel and brake assemblies. This is not yet modeled in LFS yet and until it is a highly accurate tyre heat model is difficult.

- steel belted radials would distibute the inner heat of the tyre rapidly and therefore tyre rubber at depth would be roughly consistent around the circumference of the tyre.

While I think the tyre model in LFS is good, I am looking forward to what furture development there will be

Tyres are a very difficult thing to get right as they have many rubbery concepts to master

In Autocross we cool down tires with water... it does take quite a bit of time for the tires to cool down....

Once my Azenis overheat (Azenis RT615s hate heat), It IS like driving on ICE. Overdriving the tires will heat them up VERY VERY quickly!

just my real life experience, take it for whatever its worth to you I guess.... I'm personally happy with the way heat is handled in the patch....

Quote from dawnpatrol :

In Autocross we cool down tires with water... it does take quite a bit of time for the tires to cool down....

Once my Azenis overheat (Azenis RT615s hate heat), It IS like driving on ICE. Overdriving the tires will heat them up VERY VERY quickly!

just my real life experience, take it for whatever its worth to you I guess.... I'm personally happy with the way heat is handled in the patch....

It's always good to hear rl experience

I did notice though that the Azenis RT615s is a pretty high performance tyre almost bordering on a track tyre, having minimal tread pattern and fairly soft compound so I would expect it to perform somewhere between a racing tyre and high perfomance road tyre.

I too think that the tyres in LFS are pretty good, but just am not 100% convinced about some aspects of the road normal and road super tyres.

You do make a good point about tyres being hard to cool down, as rubber is not a good conductor of heat so it will resist heating up but once overheated to a significant depth they will not want to cool down in a hurry as well, as you say even in water

I don't think the road tyres are far off actually and I certainly don't think they cool down too slow as some suggest, but I'm not sure that the way the road normal and supers heat up is spot on yet. Especially the main body of rubber of the tyre, and the behaviour between the surface of the tyre and the main body of the tyre.

Quote from Lautsprecher[NOR] :

A nasty scissor should also come out of one of the DVD-ROMs and cut his balls off!

+1

AFAIK racing slicks are far harder than road tires...

Quote from Primoz :

AFAIK racing slicks are far harder than road tires...

errrr..... Racing slicks have a tread wear rating of 0. R-comp have a tread wear rating anywhere from 40-100. High performance street tires have 140 up to 280.

Racing slicks are soft...very very soft....

You should note that the LFS road tyres are softer than the sort of tyres most of us use on our cars. Just look at the grip they provide. Road supers give well over 1g in a corner, something most "shopping car" tyres will never give.

So don't think of Road supers and normals as direct link to RL road tyres.

Quote from fasukilla :

i agree whit that thread
and about the smoke, when drifters got high temp on lfs and theres a smoke behind the tyres on straight roads when the tyres arent spining is not realistic at all, probly to mutch smoke, its not like the tyres was on fire ,if it was i could understand but its not..its supose to give more smoke when the car is powersliding only so that need to be fixed to make the game be more realistic though..

+1 For fixing the smoke, making it more realistic.
-1 For arcade mode and make tires 'grip' less just to make it easier.

Quote from Riders Motion :

+1 For fixing the smoke, making it more realistic.
-1 For arcade mode and make tires 'grip' less just to make it easier.

Can you hovewer say you know that current lfs hot tires have enough grip? Or in other words, are you sure they don't lose grip too easily? If so, please give facts.

Myself I have drifted on "hot tires", certainly not even close to as hot as in lfs, but it was easier to lose grip than with cold, but not as much as in lfs. Based on what I saw in real life(heavy drifting, lots of smoke, hot tires) LFS might be a tad too slippy. I asked once one drifter about how it is on hot tires and kinda never heard opinion like "it's super slidey then". I will try to get more info about that.

Other thing is, LFS might be too easy at losing grip/beginning drift. Not in like.. "needs less skill", but more like not realistic enough. It just does take more effort in real life to begin the drift, except when using a handbrake ofcourse.

Here is how I see things:

I am for more grip, in a way to bring LFS more realistic (close to real life).

But I'm not for 'adding more grip' just for 'adding more grip' (more than real life).

Quote from kamkorPL :

Other thing is, LFS might be too easy at losing grip/beginning drift. Not in like.. "needs less skill", but more like not realistic enough. It just does take more effort in real life to begin the drift, except when using a handbrake ofcourse.

true true

Ok well maybe a good suggestion but does anyone here think about the way to include this? Does anyone here know the terms and expressions to be calculated to make this possible? I guess not.

As what i know there only 3 devs for LFS and im sure they aint almighty or something they are usual people who cant know everything, so if you know how to make this realistic email the devs with all the required informations.