ok... so the answer to the question of "should lfs support or contain driving aids?" is... LOL?
We should just crash our cars and just not even bother to learn how to drive without aids and just laugh it off, and be like Burnout, where our ultimate goal is to destroy cars???
I liked where the topic was going, it seemed interesting to hear other peoples opinions on the subject of using acronyms for the purpose of showing emotion in a real face to face conversation. Personally I find it very annoying, and just walk away from the speaker that used an acronym to convey an emotion.
Regarding assists in general, why not consider what other simulation oriented racing games have done, which is basically to include assists, but allow servers to specify which assists (or even views in the case of NR2003) are allowed? The assists can always be tweaked so that using them would be slower than not using them (except when the real world equivalent has assists, like traction control and no lift sequential shifting on a Formula 1 cars, or active suspension used in some GT series).
Why should LFS be different than every other simulation oriented racing game? I can't imagine that a thread like "Join the we're glad LFS is harder and more realistic now club" would exist for any other racing game. It's no wonder that many outsiders consider a large part of the LFS community to be elitist (some also claimed LFS S1 had the best physics ever). Note, harder isn't always more realistic.
Getting back on topic about realism:
Since the gear ratios for the cars in LFS are fully adjustable, I would assume that the transmissions being simulated are racing type transmissions with dog gears, as opposed to the syncro-mesh type gears used on street cars (I'm not aware of a racing class that allows adjustable gears, but requires synco-mesh transmissions). With dog gears, usage of the clutch is optional, it depends on the driver, and length of the race (drivers will be more conservative in a 24 hour endurance race than a typcial 2 hour race). With proper throttle modulation by the driver, cars with racing transmissions can be shifted up and down without the clutch, and some very good race car drivers take advantage of this and left foot brake, which can require just as much skill as heel and toe type downshifting. Hmm, are there force feedback shifters?
These deviations are implemented to compensate for the lack of physical feedback that is experienced in a real car. One example would be exagerrated tire scrub and squeal sounds.
I'm turning 30 on the 23. PANIC!
And I am still not familiar with all the lolz and FTW and WYSIWYG nor all the 1337 5p34k and such. Maybe it'll become second nature when I get older
PS.
Why should LFS be like every other "simulator oriented racing game"?
If LFS was like all the others, who in their right mind would pay £24 for an ALPHA?
If LFS was like the others we wouldn't be playing it nor would we have this forum. Haven't heard any gaming house releasing an ALPHA state game to the market. Buggy crap, yes. Alpha, no.
There is one (1) ONE coder working on this small, little, goddam huge, ambitious project. Relax, give the poor guy some time. There is so much to do, and he doesn't seem like all that much of a rush (to do a rushed shitty job, see: rFactor). One day it will be 'done', but that day is long far away. Breath in, breath out. Relax. The day will come. The way in which he is achieving 'goals' in LFS seem to be going in the right direction - realism.
In spite of the name, it's a technically a beta release, since it's available to the general public (alpha implies only available to testers within or contracted by a company):
Back on topic. So is LFS better because of it's physics, or because assists have been removed? If it's the assist removal, think I could sell patches for the other racing games to remove the assists?
One coder? Better hope he never wins the lottery and retires. I feel a bit sorry for the guy. He's been at it for years now, probably long hours, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's sufferenting from occasional bouts of burnout.
Although it seems that removal of assists, such as removal of auto-cut / auto-blip gave the coder more stuff to do, unless there was some conflict between the auto-cut / auto-blip and the new clutch model, and those assists would have to be tweaked in order to work with the new clutch, in which case removal is easier.
Racing game is not the same thing as racing sim. GT4 is a racing game and there it is ok to use arcade features and fake concepts and aids to be able to offer the game for larger group of people. GT4's main goal is to be fun and it is succesful doing it. A racing sim takes as much from real life as it is possible or sensible and offers only fake concepts and features when the real life option is mindbendingly boring or downright useless for the sim aspect.
Driving aids is just one step towards arcade in a sim and arcade aspects should not exist in a sim - they just spoil it and when people get used to them it hinders the progress of the sim. It is the same as having complex real life kinematic weapon modellings in a game like serious sam - it makes no sense and doesn't fit for what the game wants to be. If LFS wants to be everything then driving aids fit in well but for a sim, no.
There is still looong way to go before I consider LFS truly a sim. LFS lacks so many small and huge features that some sim aspects are merely non-existent. But for a sim, the path taken by removing driving aids is 100% correct.
WHAT?!?!? GT; an ARCADE GAME??? ok, gt4 is a very bad example of what polyphony can do but i am sure that gt5 is going to be amazing. it's philosophy is to make everything as real as possible, from stock car tuning, to tracks and physics, it's trying to be perfect. and that's not an arcade game, they are striving to be the ultimate driving simulator that you can learn how to drive and race from.
The quality of the physics probably stopped improving at about gt3.
Now i would think that what you are referring to something more derogatory, something that is foul and it's sim title should be usurped... i bring you FORZA all they care about is what kinda stickers you can put on the car. and the graphic qualities aren't even good enough to compensate for it's stupid physics system
Why, LFS is NOT one of those sims. This is what makes it better than the normal offerings and why we are all here in the first place. Why are you not playing those "better in your eyes" sims instead?
Why is it Soooooooooooo hard to accept the FACT that some of the cars in LFS just do NOT have the systems you talk about. Scawen would have implemented it for those cars if that was the intention, but he didn't.
Guess what, MANY MANY cars IRL that have been modified for track use DO NOT have the systems you keep talking about. We already KNOW that some cars have too many settings options and many would like WHAT you can change restricted for the smaller cars.
NOW answer this simple question with YES or NO, it will show a lot about your motives....
Do you want the old keyboard steering put back in LFS?
The reason I ask is that you appear very concerned about this considering it DOES NOT effect you, or so you keep saying. Well the removal of the old KB steer didnt effect you but look at all the people that effected for the worse.
BTW: If you answer NO then why should blip/cut get back in. If YES you really are playing the wrong sim. Come on, lets see where you stand on this
I have G25 yet i still believe that ppl with 2-axis controllers shouldn't be punished to be honest.
I had a MOMO for some years and i too would be a tad unhappy if i was made to do it a bit tougher , its not that you cant but it makes it a little unpleasant.
As for the adjustable suspension etc etc , these cars would be track day cars so no its not totally unreasonable.
Sarsi has a point this forum can and has had a Mob mentality , which i have been part of too, were getting too quick to attack and too quick to shout down others views .
After reading this pointless back and forth argument... Why is it to me, that JeffR appears to have something viciously jammed up his rump? Yes, you maker valid points, but why? You aren't getting anything done, and not convincing anyone. Finally you got my attention to speak, but I think whatever the Scavier team decides is best I go with it. It's good how it is, I don't look at :lfs: and compare it to real life when I'm racing, or to Rfactor! Yes, I believe it is a simulator. It is very convincing to me that the cars act pretty close to what they would or should in real life. Granted, I'll probably never drive a BMW F1 car, or a Caterham, but I'm convinced thats how it would be, so I'm happy. Why can't people be happy around here for what we got? That's the issue, parts of the community are tight asses, when really they just need to get out there and provide good clean racing and stop complaining about how it should or could be!
Jeff you have to realise the type of people your arguing with. most of them are going to agree with what ever the developers do, in the mind the developers can't do no wrong. plus some suffer from elitist syndrome where they forget that this is just a game. they want the game as "hard" as possible so they can feel better about the lap time they just got.
i mean for god sake its just a game why do you care if the person you racing is using auto blip or throttle cut.
It is just a game, however for most of the people that play this simulator/game(including me), see every time we are out on the track as a club track day, because we can't afford to spend $300 every weekend on tires or for any repair that, might cost $1000 or more, happens to occur. So yes I definitely take this game more seriously than I should.
Elitist, of course, racing is racing regardless if its on a track or in a game. I couldn't imagine anyone would prefer a keyboard and mouse(game pad or flight sticks) to control their daily driver to work, however that is just my opinion.
And I do agree with what ever the developers choose to change, because it is in the license agreement. If I were to choose to not agree, then I would leave the LFS community, whats so hard about that?
The reason I chose to purchase this simulator is because I liked the developers main goal in the making of this sim. I like how they don't try to cater to everyone's whining just to please everyone, otherwise they might as well be making something like the "Gran Turismo" franchise.
Well I can't remember the specifics anymore but I'm certain that the devs have gone back on certain decisions they have made in the past. It's also quite possible that given the timeframe and the well known fact that Scawen was under a deadline with this patch that removing auto-blip altogether may have been done as a quick fix (especially considering that joystick users are not a priority). No one here knows otherwise and if they do they are probably unable to comment. Do I think it's likely auto-blip will return for single axis users? No, but it is possible. FCV is a perfect example of something the devs have implemented quickly to later be refined, hell the examples of this sort of thing in LFS are too numerous to list.
@ Woz, please stop making comparisons between this issue and the old version of keyboard help. The two issues are so far removed in almost every aspect. Also note that keyboard aid still exists but in a form where it doesn't provide for an unfair advantage, this is all some of us would like to see with auto-blip for single axis users only.
On a side note, why am I not surprised that it is forum regulars spamming off topic posts in this thread. This is something along with shouting down and attacking those with opinions that supposedly aren't in line with the devs mythical "vision" that turn people away from participating in this community. Ever notice how the majority of the established aussie community doesn't post here at all? This is because we have somewhere else where we can discuss our concerns (or lack of them) with LFS in a civilised manner without being attacked, accused of being nothing more than a whiner, incorrectly being branded arcade racers or accused of trying to turn LFS into an arcade game.
Edit: Just to be clear I have been a clutch user in LFS since S1 days and as such feel that the latest patch is possibly the single greatest patch made to LFS to date. It has done more to improve the level of realism in regards to racing than any other outside of the tyre physics patch and S2 itself. However certain small things I disagree with and I will post my opinion on these things if I so wish.
