The online racing simulator
assists and realism in LFS
(122 posts, started )
Quote from JeffR :In spite of the name, it's a technically a beta release, since it's available to the general public (alpha implies only available to testers within or contracted by a company):

Wiki - Software_release_life_cycle

Did you even bother to read the wiki page you linked to?

I quess not because the third sentence in the Beta paragraph is:
Quote from Wiki :Beta level software generally includes all features, but may also include known issues and bugs of a less serious variety.

Reading that how can you call LFS Beta? Even the physics model is incomplete! Not to mention there was just a whole new car added.
Nowhere on that page does it say how many Alpha testers are allowed to Alpha test a program.
Quote from JeffR :Back on topic. So is LFS better because of it's physics, or because assists have been removed?

It's not OR it's AND.
Quote from JeffR : If it's the assist removal, think I could sell patches for the other racing games to remove the assists?

Nobody paid anything for the Y patch.
TBH, I don't believe you are such a skilled coder that you could code anything into those "other racing games".
Quote from JeffR :I can't imagine that a thread like "Join the we're glad LFS is harder and more realistic now club" would exist for any other racing game.

What's your point?

Quote :It's no wonder that many outsiders consider a large part of the LFS community to be elitist

Is that a bad thing? Should we dumb the whole sim down so that other sims don't think we're elitist, and drivers like you can cope?

Quote :(some also claimed LFS S1 had the best physics ever)

Ignoring the fact that it was an early version of LFS (0.3), it did. For it's time. Yes, there were errors in the tyres, and yes it wasn't polished like we know now, but nothing else at the time came close. It's all relative. In 100 years people might laugh at LFS S2 for being shite, but right now nothing is more realistic.

Quote :Note, harder isn't always more realistic.

Yes, we know that. But then, we can cope with the clutch and without n00b aids, so we appreciate you (who can't) might have a different view.

Quote :
Since the gear ratios for the cars in LFS are fully adjustable, I would assume that the transmissions being simulated are racing type transmissions with dog gears, as opposed to the syncro-mesh type gears used on street cars (I'm not aware of a racing class that allows adjustable gears, but requires synco-mesh transmissions). With dog gears, usage of the clutch is optional, it depends on the driver, and length of the race (drivers will be more conservative in a 24 hour endurance race than a typcial 2 hour race). With proper throttle modulation by the driver, cars with racing transmissions can be shifted up and down without the clutch, and some very good race car drivers take advantage of this and left foot brake, which can require just as much skill as heel and toe type downshifting. Hmm, are there force feedback shifters?

The gear ratio selection has nothing to do the type of gearbox - it's just a decimal system. Any gearbox can have adjustable gears if you can either find them, or have them made. With dog gears you STILL NEED TO UNLOAD THE DOGS, so clutch is optional, but in most cases recommended (even by Hewland). With left foot braking you generally have some form of electro-hydraulic assistance to do the fancy stuff for you. Three pedal cars are rarely left foot braked whilst changing gear.

Quote :These deviations are implemented to compensate for the lack of physical feedback that is experienced in a real car. One example would be exagerrated tire scrub and squeal sounds.

Again, what's your point. Of course some things need to be exaggerated. You don't see the hardcore crowd getting upset about tyre squeal, do you!?

How about taking a week off, and working out for yourself what LFS is all about. It doesn't need to 'be like other sims' because it isn't other sims. If they all tried to be the same thing there wouldn't be more than one sim.

See you in a week...
Quote from JeffR :Note, harder isn't always more realistic.

Also note: realistic isn't always harder. I'd expect the opposite as it's easier to apply logic to.

Personally I find LFS much easier to come to terms with what's going on than most other sims. There are no weird surprises because "it was coded to occur so at such a speed and at such an angle".

And if I can't initially figure out what happened, I can usually watch a replay and actually see exactly where my driving or setup error was, even without resorting to telemetry most of the time.

Oh, you might want to add these to your list of "not realistic" bits:

Much too forgiving damage modeling for physical contact.
No tyre-failure due to stress.
Camber adjustment is possible during a pitstop.
Lack of four-way adjustable shocks on race cars.
Lack of dynamic ground-effect for cars with suitable undertray.
Lack of aerodynamic drag difference between covered or open versions of the same car.

and the list goes on and on ...

Not surprisingly you can find most, if not all of these, in the improvement suggestions subforum. And that is where they belong, because quite simply, they're not implemented yet and seeing as they are representative of issues that matter in a racing simulation then they're more likely to be implemented at some point than ABS for example or some fully automatic transmission or even active suspension though it is featured in some production road cars and even had a season in F1.
Quote from atlantian :WHAT?!?!? GT; an ARCADE GAME??? ok, gt4 is a very bad example of what polyphony can do but i am sure that gt5 is going to be amazing. it's philosophy is to make everything as real as possible, from stock car tuning, to tracks and physics, it's trying to be perfect. and that's not an arcade game, they are striving to be the ultimate driving simulator that you can learn how to drive and race from.

The quality of the physics probably stopped improving at about gt3.

Now i would think that what you are referring to something more derogatory, something that is foul and it's sim title should be usurped... i bring you FORZA all they care about is what kinda stickers you can put on the car. and the graphic qualities aren't even good enough to compensate for it's stupid physics system

Sorry mate, but you are talking crapola

GT4 and GT5 are VERY poor in the physics states, where as Forza 2 is infact very good.
Dan is right - GT4 is crap to drive (unless drunk), and I'm sure GT5 won't change the mix too much otherwise it won't make a profit. Expect more of the same, with some blingy graphics and an improved photo mode.
From what I have seen, GT5 uses the same non-tyre-pyshics tyres, at least Forza uses Pacejka (sp?) tyre tables (even though they admit some if it had to be fudged because the cars didn't "feel" right).

Some interesting info on the Forza physics > http://download.microsoft.com/ ... 4f54c/Forza2MNL_LE_EN.pdf

to para-phrase

"We tried different tire models after our “green light” demo. We kept tuning
the physics model, finding bugs, and working on it. New cars exposed new
issues. We had two basic ways of expressing the tire physics. The traditional
way that simulation racing games do this is Pacejka’s Magic Formula—no joke,
that’s what it’s called. It’s got a whole slew of variables you tune and input,
and it spits out friction values. But the cars didn’t control the way we wanted
and the results didn’t mesh with a lot of our real-world data. I’ve had enough
experience tuning with that formula that I can feel it at work when I play some
racing simulations. It’s not quite right, but it’s close. Toyo put me in contact
with their tire engineers. It was hard to understand the data they were giving
me, and I had to ask a lot of questions, but they slowly brought me up to
speed to where I could understand what their graphs and data were saying.
Pacejka’s formula is close, and really good in most situations, but not all, and
not for transitions between states. It just doesn’t feel right.
So we went to what could best be described as a table system. We have a table
that linearly interpolates between the curves we have for different weights, tire
pressures, and other variables. It’s a very big, computationally difficult system.
That’s what was nice about Pacejka’s formula when we were using it—it’s
very lightweight, where our approach is extremely heavy. That’s why in Forza
Motorsport, drifting, for example, is very real and very responsive. Drifting is
all about weight transition, and you can control it with your throttle in Forza
Motorsport because in our model the movement between those curves is very
smooth and precise. We spent a lot of time getting it right. The tire model
is amazing, but there are always things to improve. There are things in our
physics model I’ll want to improve forever.
Forza Motorsport 2 is a simulation, not a complete emulation—no one has
ever done that, no matter what they claim. We can’t completely emulate tire
technology until the scientists learn it, and they haven’t learned it all yet. Tires
do some funky things. They’ve got load sensitivity, which involves non-
Newtonian physics. A tire with a coefficient of friction of 1.0 at 500 kg actually
develops a smaller coefficient of friction at 1,000 kg. With 500 kg on the tire,
it might require a value of 500 kg force to push it. But with a 1,000 kg load, it
might require a value of 800 kg force to push it. Understanding this is huge in
understanding how tires function. It’s a big deal to simulate this, though few
people know about it. When I told the tire engineers, they were amazed we
were doing it."
Quote from atlantian :WHAT?!?!? GT; an ARCADE GAME??? ok, gt4 is a very bad example of what polyphony can do but i am sure that gt5 is going to be amazing. it's philosophy is to make everything as real as possible, from stock car tuning, to tracks and physics, it's trying to be perfect. and that's not an arcade game, they are striving to be the ultimate driving simulator that you can learn how to drive and race from.

The quality of the physics probably stopped improving at about gt3.

Now i would think that what you are referring to something more derogatory, something that is foul and it's sim title should be usurped... i bring you FORZA all they care about is what kinda stickers you can put on the car. and the graphic qualities aren't even good enough to compensate for it's stupid physics system

I can't say I expect much for GT5, I played the Japanese GT5 prologue, and it isn't very much different from GT4. Yes there are cockpit views and the physics has changed, and the AI have been updated, but their expectations for their game don't seem to be very high. The makers of GT5 still expect their users to pass 8 cars(16 total 7 behind you when you start) in two laps in a balanced class. I, with a controller, was able to pass those 8 cars in less than a lap with zero contact and no course sutting, not only that but gain 15+ seconds on the finishing lap. That shows what they expect their game to be which isn't very good.

If it is assists any of you are looking for and non-competitive racing, then this is the game for you.
In my opinion improper controllers should be allowed, but without any aids. At least I felt really betrayed few days ago, when I realized that back in my momo days I wasn't fast because of my car control skillz but more likely because flatshifting, paddle shifting, button clutch, auto-blipping, turning only 240 degrees etc. Now I feel really bad for those who may have lost a race to me because of using more realistic controls. I would have been much happier if the aids didn't exist in the first place.

And now that I had a chance to get the proper gear, I either don't want a wing commander outbrake me by just pulling back, not to speak of a teenager pressing 'z'.
Quote from tristancliffe :LFS ... right now nothing is more realistic.

I've read that many racing sim "experts", and a few actual real world race drivers consider Nascar Racing Season 2003 to be the most realistic racing sim ever made, including LFS or any ISI based game. Used copies of the NR2003 are still selling for over $70 (USA) at Ebay, new ones for even more. There are many track and a few car set add-ons for the game.

This doesn't mean there's no room for any other racing games. I bought LFS, GPL, NR2003, and many ISI based games, like rFactor and Race 07. I enjoy them all. I also enjoy arcade racers like the Need For Speed series, Toca Race Driver 2 and 3, and even little known "budget" games like Ford Racing 2.

Other than knowledge about aspects of race car driving like induced understeer, and learning track layouts, I don't think that any of these games would prepare a person to drive a real race car, because the games can't truly reproduce what happens in a real car when at or past the limits of traction, and the feel is never going to be the same as a real car. To get the feedback a person needs in a real car can only be experienced with actual track time. I don't think any sim "expert" would be able jump into a Formula 1 car and click off sub 1:50 lap times at Spa.

Quote :With left foot braking you generally have some form of electro-hydraulic assistance to do the fancy stuff for you. Three pedal cars are rarely left foot braked whilst changing gear.

You missed my point then. There are real world racers that left foot brake and do clutchless shifts with a 3 pedal race car, with no assists. It's a different skill set.

"Some people shift with the clutch, some people shift without," Hemmingson explains. "There is no best way; they just do whatever works best for them. People that drive right foot gas, left foot brake usually find that it works better for them not to use the clutch. Then there are other people that drive heel/toe and use the clutch, but there is no set rule because people are better at different things.

"All you've got to do, basically, is burp the throttle. If it isn't loaded really hard, you can pull it right out of gear, and it will go right into the next gear--if it's done quickly. In a situation like going down into a turn, burping the throttle just unloads the torque on the transmission slightly, which allows the transmission to align itself with the higher rpm of the next lower gear, and it will go right in."

Quoted from this web page:

road_racing_transmission_tech
#85 - Jakg
Tristan IS a real world race driver, and although NR2003 sells for an inflated price in the US it can be had for a fiver on eBay here. No idea why it sells for so much when (For once!) it would be much cheaper to import it from the UK.
Quote from Jakg :Tristan is a real world race driver.

I know that, which is why I'm surprised that he considers LFS with PC based controllers to be the equivalent of a simulator. I've never read Tristan's opinion of how closely LFS's FOX simulates the Reynard he drives, and I'd be curious about this.

Quote :Although NR2003 sells for an inflated price in the US it can be had for a fiver on eBay here. No idea why it sells for so much when (For once!) it would be much cheaper to import it from the UK.

Regardless of the price, it still stands that many racing game experts and a few real world race drivers consider NR2003 to be the best. Tristan is a real world race driver and considers LFS to be the best. I don't know how much time he's spent with NR2003, perhaps with the GTP mod. I'm guessing that most of those real world race drvers that think NR2003 is best are Nascar drivers, so they are biased. The racing sim experts shouldn't have any such biases though, because of the variety involved in all the racing games currently available.
Quote from Woz :I think the correct term there is w00t

lol

(Ducks and runs from Bob)

8u7 1 d0n7 5p34k 1n l33t 5p34k.

Sorry
Quote from JeffR :I know that, which is why I'm surprised that he considers LFS with PC based controllers to be the equivalent of a simulator. I've never read Tristan's opinion of how closely LFS's FOX simulates the Reynard he drives, and I'd be curious about this.

Well, below and above the limit it's pretty accurate (at racing speeds). The level of grip, the amount of feel, even the feel of the sidewalls moving is there in LFS and not far from reality.

Quote :Regardless of the price, it still stands that many racing game experts and a few real world race drivers consider NR2003 to be the best. Tristan is a real world race driver and considers LFS to be the best. I don't know how much time he's spent with NR2003, perhaps with the GTP mod. I'm guessing that most of those real world race drvers that think NR2003 is best are Nascar drivers, so they are biased. The racing sim experts shouldn't have any such biases though, because of the variety involved in all the racing games currently available.

I do own NR2003, somewhere on my shelves it is. But I never really liked it. It has a funny feel, which might be because it's crap (which it isn't), or it might be because it's simulating cars from about 1915 in terms of technology, and I'm from Europe where things have moved on a bit. NASCAR doesn't interest me, and modding games doesn't interest me (unless it's automatic and guaranteed quality).

You've played a lot of sims, and if it wasn't for your exceptional lack of talent (evidenced by your recent threads) and poor choice of controller, I'd ask you if you'd agree that ISI sims are crap, nK has lots of potential but never loads, LFS feels right and all console games are terrible (but some more terrible than others).

I've not stated that LFS is realistic. I've stated that of all the sims I've played (which is most on the PC, not so many on consoles) LFS is the only one that ALWAYS provides an experience not far removed from reality. nK sometimes does (sometimes out of the already few times it works), rFactor hasn't yet (and I do own it, and I do have it installed at home, and I do download stuff of rFcentral), GTR2 was amusingly bad, but not quite as seriously rubbish as GTR1....... LFS has a long way to go in many aspects of it's realism, from setups to damage, via aero and tyres. Maybe NR2003 is best for ovalling or American cars. I don't know.

Plenty of real racing drivers play LFS. Plenty play rFactor. Plenty play GTR1/2. Plenty play... need I go on. Being a real racing driver first doesn't mean your choice of sim is based on realism at all. They judge in all the wrong areas. Put a sim driver in a real car (and I'm not solely referring to me here, but plenty of others on this forum alone) and you get much more interesting feedback.
Indeed.

Scawen did some pretty good things in his little video, and he's been taught by LFS. Recovering from a lockup /slide nicely (What? I thought that was impossible in a SS, haha, stupid RSC), and taking some corners visibly and audibly on the limit. I thought that was pretty interesting, I hopefully one day he'll do a more detailed writeup of his impressions driving the FBM, and how it differed from LFS and so forth.
That would be a great read as well. I give all props to the entire LFS team as this is a racing simulator. I don't really know what your argument is JeffR but you either enjoy it, or you don't. If the things your arguing don't effect you then drop the argument - keyboard and joystick users can speak up for themselves if they really feel like it. You were already told by one person that it effected that they didn't care and would voice their opinion if needed. Well I am sure there are tons of effected people who have read parts of this post and they can post their thoughts. I enjoy it with fewer assists, and the blip/throttle cut didn't effect people with a MOMO as long as they download the logitech profiler and set the pedals to be uncombined. But that argument seems to be over with.
Quote from tristancliffe :You've played a lot of sims, and if it wasn't for your exceptional lack of talent (evidenced by your recent threads) and poor choice of controller, I'd ask you if you'd agree that ISI sims are crap, nK has lots of potential but never loads, LFS feels right and all console games are terrible (but some more terrible than others).

I wouldn't say it's exceptionally bad. I realize I'm not a racing sim expert, but my lap times are within 5% to 7% of world record times with most games, a trend I first noticed with GPL which I played in spurts to get my rank to a -12.

http://gplrank.schuerkamp.de/p ... ?showHistory=1,1,10192,no

I don't know where this ranks me in general with racing sims, probably above average, but obviously not "expert".

Quote :I've not stated that LFS is realistic. I've stated that of all the sims I've played (which is most on the PC, not so many on consoles) LFS is the only one that ALWAYS provides an experience not far removed from reality.

OK, that sounds reasonable, not perfect, but better than the rest. Not being an expert myself, I can only go by what I read, within reason (S1 was not as great as many claimed, but since version S, S2 is very good). I got the impression that the sim racing experts that prefer NR2003's physics don't race the ovals, or even the cup cars, but probably the Trans-Am cars on road courses.

Quote :ISI games

Even I knew that the all or nothing traction in GTR was a problem, that was never completely resolved. The tire model just isn't quite right. A real GT driver made a comment that GTR2 was more realistic with traction control set to low instead of off, so in his opinion, there's still an issue with the tire physics. I bought Race 07, but I haven' really checked out the feedback on this game.

Quote :Put a sim driver in a real car (and I'm not solely referring to me here, but plenty of others on this forum alone) and you get much more interesting feedback.

I seem to recall this being done, but don't remember the outcome. However, skill sets in one area don't always translate well to another, even when very similar. For example, some world class Superbike motorcycle racers weren't competitve on the 2 strock based Grand Prix type motorcycles, while others were. Top table tennis players aren't competitive in tennis or vice versa. I wouldn't expect a sim racing expert to do better than a normal street car driver with a natural but undiscovered talent for driving race cars after a few laps of training for both.

Quote :Forza

The most valuable point made here was the issue with the "magic" formula. I've always thought that interpolation of table data has always been the way to go, since tables are how real world data is sampled. I seem to recall Todd Wasson coming up with his own tire phsyics model, but don't remember if he mentioned any specifics, other that weaknesses in the "magic" formula. It's very rare that a curve fit and resulting equation with a few variables is ever going to be as accurate as a table with dozens or hundreds of sampled points.

Quote :Controller

I'll probably be buying a wheel and pedal set soon, maybe a G25. Recommendations welcome here. I had two issues with the Momo racing wheel and pedals. Pedal pressure was too light, especially for my clumsly left foot if I try to left foot brake (I left foot brake in my wife's car, which is an automatic, just because I wanted to learn how to do this). The other issue with the Momo wheel is the motor inertia prevents fast wheel movments, no matter how small, which is an issue when at the limits.
Quote from JeffR :I'll probably be buying a wheel and pedal set soon, maybe a G25. Recommendations welcome here. I had two issues with the Momo racing wheel and pedals. Pedal pressure was too light, especially for my clumsly left foot if I try to left foot brake (I left foot brake in my wife's car, which is an automatic, just because I wanted to learn how to do this). The other issue with the Momo wheel is the motor inertia prevents fast wheel movments, no matter how small, which is an issue when at the limits.

I have both a momo racing and G25 wheel, the G25 is a big improvement over the momo.

It has more precise feel in the FFB and overall I don't feel the wheel slows down reaction times. But then again I didn't feel the momo was that bad either for that maybe it is how you had it setup? If you have Overall Effects Strength set to your preference and all the other settings to zero or off it should be ok on the momo. The G25 does feel more responsive though. And the G25 actually feels like a wheel instead of a toy

As for the pedals, they are alot better than the momo pedals. Brakes have a reasonable resistance along with the clutch at a little less than the brake, but if your looking for rl type of pedal feel you will be still disapointed. The big problem with brake feel is that irl your brake pedal has limited travel and the brake pressure exerted is less about pedal travel and more about how hard you push the pedal. This hasn't been replicated in off the shelf products yet, I plan to eventually make a cockpit and make a pedal setup that uses a pressure sensor for the brake you can get plans for this off RSC, a few guys arround here have done it I think Nielsathome springs to mind?. That will have to be awhile away for me though
#94 - Woz
Quote from JeffR :I'll probably be buying a wheel and pedal set soon, maybe a G25. Recommendations welcome here. I had two issues with the Momo racing wheel and pedals. Pedal pressure was too light, especially for my clumsly left foot if I try to left foot brake (I left foot brake in my wife's car, which is an automatic, just because I wanted to learn how to do this). The other issue with the Momo wheel is the motor inertia prevents fast wheel movments, no matter how small, which is an issue when at the limits.

For the money there really isn't another choice apart from the G25.

I used to run a DFP with ActLabs pedals and shifter until the shifter bust. (The old style one)

The actlabs shifter is better than the G25 one but not by much. The pedals on the G25 are good and the brake has a good weight to it. The wheel is the best I have used (I have not used reall high end stuff though but then that sort of kit comes with big cost)
Quote from Woz :
NOW answer this simple question with YES or NO, it will show a lot about your motives....

Do you want the old keyboard steering put back in LFS?

The reason I ask is that you appear very concerned about this considering it DOES NOT effect you, or so you keep saying. Well the removal of the old KB steer didnt effect you but look at all the people that effected for the worse.

BTW: If you answer NO then why should blip/cut get back in. If YES you really are playing the wrong sim. Come on, lets see where you stand on this

well, no, i want a sim to be totally realistic, so it makes people who are not GENUINELY interested in racing and/or driving quit within a few seconds since it's too hard for them.

I want a sim that you can basically dial in a setting for a car (ie make specs similar to those of real cars) and you can drive it and it would act as if it was in real life.
Quote from JeffR : The other issue with the Momo wheel is the motor inertia prevents fast wheel movments, no matter how small, which is an issue when at the limits.

Damper effects in the profiler, gives this effect = as Glenn67 said turn it off, you'll feel more and the wheel spins easier.
Quote :As for the pedals, they are alot better than the momo pedals. Brakes have a reasonable resistance along with the clutch at a little less than the brake, but if your looking for rl type of pedal feel you will be still disapointed. The big problem with brake feel is that irl your brake pedal has limited travel and the brake pressure exerted is less about pedal travel and more about how hard you push the pedal. This hasn't been replicated in off the shelf products yet,

Actually there is a G25 brake mod that gives a progressive feel like a real pedal, cheap too I use it and recommend it.
I will be buying a high end pedal set at some point - but with this mod in my G25, I'm not in a big hurry. googles ya friend
Quote from atlantian :well, no, i want a sim to be totally realistic, so it makes people who are not GENUINELY interested in racing and/or driving quit within a few seconds since it's too hard for them.

I want a sim that you can basically dial in a setting for a car (ie make specs similar to those of real cars) and you can drive it and it would act as if it was in real life.

I made the XRG perform like my Miata. However there is still the weight difference that cant be changed with out changing the physics.
Attached files
XRG_N-Miata.set - 132 B - 1078 views
Quote from Polyracer :Actually there is a G25 brake mod that gives a progressive feel like a real pedal, cheap too I use it and recommend it.

I've already modded my pedals there hieghts as well, but I still look forward to making a better set in the future
wow, Lego, sweet, so are u saying that LFSTweak would just screw up the physics if you use it for something minor as trimming a few pounds off?


and as far as controller's concerned, i am not that hardcore so i just got a controller with 4 analog inputs for the: clutch, brake, throttle, and steering
Quote from legoflamb :I made the XRG perform like my Miata. However there is still the weight difference that cant be changed with out changing the physics.

That is a lovely set. Perfect gearing for Fern Bay. I love it!

assists and realism in LFS
(122 posts, started )
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