Fixed
Fixed
I created an assists and realism thread, why do the assists oriented posts keep showing up in this thread asking if the clutch heating in LFS is realistic (as opposed to exagerated or diminished compared to real life). I didn't intend this to be a thread about the removal of auto-cut or auto-blip, because I had the impression that in addition to player that formerly used auto-cut and auto blip, there are also players with "proper" wheel and pedal setups, that never used auto-cut or auto-blip, were having issues with the clutch overheating.
I've only run one test myself, doing full throttle no lift upshifts at 9000 rpm in the LX6 at Blackwood, and the clutch temperature bar only showed a very thin sliver of orange.
I didn't test the other cars, and based on the posts here, some think it's exagerrated, and other think it's OK. My guess is that it may depend on the car.
I've only run one test myself, doing full throttle no lift upshifts at 9000 rpm in the LX6 at Blackwood, and the clutch temperature bar only showed a very thin sliver of orange.
I didn't test the other cars, and based on the posts here, some think it's exagerrated, and other think it's OK. My guess is that it may depend on the car.
First time I got to run the new patch was yesterday.
I may be a little biased having owned a "proper" wheel/3 pedal/shifter setup unlike a good portion of you. Then again, I may be biased because I was raised and drive manual cars in real life too, unlike a good portion of you.
The clutch system, to me, seems very much fine. I see no real problem with it in terms of realism or behavior, nothing that screams change it. It really does take blatant abuse to have problems. Even simple flat shifting doesn't seem to get the clutch overheated. It takes a good bit of me driving around like I own a CVT transmission to get the thing hot and slipping. I basically have to do things that I'd never do in real life because I know it would destroy the clutch in order to destroy the clutch in the game.
I may be a little biased having owned a "proper" wheel/3 pedal/shifter setup unlike a good portion of you. Then again, I may be biased because I was raised and drive manual cars in real life too, unlike a good portion of you.
The clutch system, to me, seems very much fine. I see no real problem with it in terms of realism or behavior, nothing that screams change it. It really does take blatant abuse to have problems. Even simple flat shifting doesn't seem to get the clutch overheated. It takes a good bit of me driving around like I own a CVT transmission to get the thing hot and slipping. I basically have to do things that I'd never do in real life because I know it would destroy the clutch in order to destroy the clutch in the game.
Holy cow I thought you were dead!
Yeah, we had established this quite some time ago in the testpatch threads, I think (and I'd say it's the same in rL, tbh. Some cars have strong, others have weaker clutches). Some people reported problems with excessive clutch overheating especially in rallyx, which lead Scawen to give some cars stronger clutches.
On a different note: I really don't understand how you could start this thread, not having tested the clutch heating at all. Yet, you quite strongly implied in your second post, it was not realistic.
You're right, I overreacted in my second post. I based that statement on what I read in the other thread. Since I can't possibly know how strong the clutches are on all the cars emulated by LFS, I have to go by the feedback of others, and for some cars and players, it seems that the clutch overheating is excessive. In hindsight, I should have left out my second post, and waited for more feedback in this thread before offering any opinion. The title is correct, it's just asking if the clutch heating is realistic, since there seemed to be a few complaints about it.
I was probably biased because I still feel that it takes too long for small hot spots on a tire to cool down. The segmented tire model seemed like a compromise, but I'm not sure how complicated it would be to model variable size contact patches that would depend on the load and tire pressure during the period of tire slippage.
You could, oh I don't know, try them before jumping into a huge argument here on the forums? The fact that you've barely even tried the LFS clutches at this point just boggles my mind. What has been the point of discussing this with you the last twenty-twelve pages if you don't even know what you're complaining about? How can you just take some random complaint you've read here as gospel and then engage in a huge discussion about it?
Of course it's a compromise. Every damned thing in a computer simulation is a compromise. It's always a balance between resource usage, development time and final result. The real question is; is it good enough in most cases encountered when racing? Also load and tire pressure most certainly is part of the simulation right now. You don't need a dynamically sized contact patch to simulate that reasonably well.
I just realized I left something important out of my original post, which is why I created this thread.
Why does a high speed impact peg the clutch temperature bar?
I was wondering why no one had responded to this, until I just realized that I left it out in my original post.
I tried out patch Y on an oval server and there are some players that like to ram other cars between races. When my car got hit by another car at high speed, the clutch temperature bar was pegged solid red and the car couldn't move. Now by all rights, my car should have been totalled, but why was this implemented via clutch overheating, or am I mis-interpreting what "CT" stands for?
You spun and didn't clutch in on time?
It wasn't "implemented" through clutch temperature. I'm guessing that because of the way you got hit the clutch was the weakest (only) link in the chanin, so it slipped and overheated. Once the rest of the damage model is implemented, I'm quite certain the rest of the car will fall apart as well, possibly leaving the clutch a-ok (but resting in a field somewhere).
Spinning didn't matter, just getting T-boned at high speed and knocked sideways with no spinning pegged the clutch bar as well. Apparently certain impacts in LFS overheat the clutch, which seems like a quicky fix to model damage until a better damage model is implemented.
Where are people getting the idea that not clutching in time in a spin is going to cause the clutch to overheat? The main reason it's important to clutch during a spin is to keep from killing the engine, especially on race cars without a starter.
The reason clutch overheating is associated with spins is because a driver may forget to downshift after a spin and tries to take off while in a high gear and slips the clutch too much. I'm not sure how often this would happen in real life, maybe there are some racing cars where the clutch would overheat before the driver realized that the car was still in a high gear.
Before commenting I'm going to need a replay (preferably single player) of this happening, because I haven't seen anything like that.
I'd put that down to the incomplete collission simulation.
i.e. when two cars collide in LFS not enough energy is lost in body crumple etc and so therefore more than rl forces are transmited back through the drive train causing the clutch to slip
I tried spinning cars in LFS; conclusion, spinning doesn't cause the clutch to overheat in LFS. I tested the LX6 and FO8 at Kyoto Ring; did a few 140mph spins, no effect on the clutch. I brushed walls to make the spins worse, still no effect.
I then drove the car backwards at Kyoto and rammed the AI cars; conclusion, crashing can damage the clutch, allowing it to slip and overheat when trying to move the car after a crash. The clutch overheats quickly, but not instantly. This seems reasonable, as the clutch plates or springs could be damaged in a crash such that the clutch wouldn't engage properly.
I wasn't able to reproduce the instant solid red CT bar in single player mode, although I saw it happen a few times in multi-player mode. I'm not sure what was different. It was the instant red that didn't make sense to me. Mabye the multi-player crashes were just more servere, and / or moved my car enough that the clutch just got overheated very quickly, so it was just a very fast transition to solid red instead of an instant one.
I then drove the car backwards at Kyoto and rammed the AI cars; conclusion, crashing can damage the clutch, allowing it to slip and overheat when trying to move the car after a crash. The clutch overheats quickly, but not instantly. This seems reasonable, as the clutch plates or springs could be damaged in a crash such that the clutch wouldn't engage properly.
I wasn't able to reproduce the instant solid red CT bar in single player mode, although I saw it happen a few times in multi-player mode. I'm not sure what was different. It was the instant red that didn't make sense to me. Mabye the multi-player crashes were just more servere, and / or moved my car enough that the clutch just got overheated very quickly, so it was just a very fast transition to solid red instead of an instant one.
If you only see that in multiplayer I'd put it down to lag causing LFS to think the forces are greater than they should be, which is a well know limitation with the crash physics in LFS so all makes sense
Ok, I forgot about that, make sense now. How much lag does it take before LFS turns a car into a lag logo (ghost car with no collision)? I rarely play online anymore, and during my short online testing with patch Y, I didn't notice any cars being turned into lag logos, but maybe the players have better connections now.
LFS doesn't turn cars that lag into ghost cars ever.
When the lag gets too large they simply just disapear and you see a lag count were the car last was. It will then reapear at some point further down the track. For less sever lag LFS projects were the car should be, but when it knows for sure it will place the car there instantly which sometimes can cause a lag hit.
LFS netcode is actually very good and these types of situations are rare even when racing against opponents half way arround the world. But if you try to connect to an unreasonably high ping server you can expect to see more lag hits, high ping for me is 400-500ms. Australian servers are between 80-120ms, USA servers 200-300ms and european servers 380-500ms. I can race closely on servers that are 400ms or less most times.
My last edit didn't take place. Corrected the post to read "lag logo" instead of "ghost car".
It is very good. The previous standard was NR2003, 42 players drafting on an oval within feet of each other (closer than that and lag induced collisions would and did occur, taking out many cars in true Nascar tradition, but without the post race fist fights, a feature that never made it into NR2003). Both games seem to have a good predicition algorithm used for short lag periods, and cars just dissappear if the lag is longer.
I think the problem with multiplay and lag is more down to when the detection of the impact takes place. I get the feeling what happens is this.
Lag and car prediction might mean that LFS does not see the impact until the cars are too far "inside" each other. Then when it detects it then looks like the impact was bigger than it was and you get pinball as worse case or a far bigger impact that it should be.
Would be good if that when LFS detects an impact it rolls back to the last reports position BEFORE the impact and then replays the paths of the cars involved to determine how the impact really happened.
I think this would solve loads of the "pinball" effect with impacts, this extreme force is then what kills the clutch as it is teh only "give" in the chain.
So I found out today that the clutch will slip with it fully engaged... UFR for example.
It is obvious in that video that you are using autoclutch. Please reread Woz's post you quoted an pay attention to his first seven words.
Or, ease the clutch pedal out without throttle until you start to move. It should build heat less quickly. It's fully expected when you floor the throttle and start out in 3rd gear with the clutch halfway engaged, you will build heat and build it rather quickly.
Replay added.... note that I start roughly the same place as the posted video. I purposely stall so that you can see that I do not have autoclutch enabled. I think I did stall once just from the lack of a decent clutch pedal and trying to get moving in 6th gear from a stand still, LOL. FBM, starting from a stand still in 6th gear accelerating down through the corner at the end of the straight. Clutch heat is no worse than a couple of pixels worth on the gauge. This is how you would attempt to start in a higher gear for real if you were so inclined to try. Not flooring the throttle and holding the clutch halfway engaged slipping like crazy.
I confirmed that autoclutch is an issue if speed is too slow for the current gear and heavy throttle is used. While at 50mph in 6th gear in the LX6, I slowed to below 10mph, and took off again. With autoclutch on, the engine rpms quickly increase to 3000 rpm and overheat the clutch. With autoclutch off, it works like it should (engine rpms stay in sync with speed, and the clutch isn't overheated.
I get the feeling the auto clutch needs to be tweaked so that its less "keen" to slip when the revs get low. I am willing to bet that most of the problems will be linked back to this and not the clutch itself.
That's the problem then.
Don't blame the clutch heat if it's the autoclutch that is causing the problems.
Don't blame the clutch heat if it's the autoclutch that is causing the problems.
So that means blame the autoclutch?
How realistic is clutch overheating?
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