Hey,
This is an idea I had talking to a freind on aim.

Is there a way LFS could have a car, that is only able to use offline, that say is just four wheels and an engine. you input how much the engine wieghs, its power output at xxx-xxx rpm, the engine position, tire size, wheel size, wieght, and all the measurements for the suspension.

reason i ask, the physics are decent. but how many of you have wondered how some different rate springs/whatever would feel but dont feel like taking the time to swap everything go to the track and do it when you have LFS already on the computer.

basically an advanced mode, where you are required to spend a couple hours typing in measurements for your car's moving and non-moving parts, so that then you can have it on and go to a lfs track and play with shocks/springs/etc.

just an idea, i know nothing about programming or what it would take, but just curious if this is even a possiblility. probably wouldnt get used a lot but it'd definately be veerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry cool to some people, and it'd be a cool tool to learn more about car setup for people like myself who dont have a lot of experience with fine tuning and nitpicking little things.

Quote from mikespeed95 :

Hey,
This is an idea I had talking to a freind on aim.

Is there a way LFS could have a car, that is only able to use offline, that say is just four wheels and an engine. you input how much the engine wieghs, its power output at xxx-xxx rpm, the engine position, tire size, wheel size, wieght, and all the measurements for the suspension.

reason i ask, the physics are decent. but how many of you have wondered how some different rate springs/whatever would feel but dont feel like taking the time to swap everything go to the track and do it when you have LFS already on the computer.

basically an advanced mode, where you are required to spend a couple hours typing in measurements for your car's moving and non-moving parts, so that then you can have it on and go to a lfs track and play with shocks/springs/etc.

just an idea, i know nothing about programming or what it would take, but just curious if this is even a possiblility. probably wouldnt get used a lot but it'd definately be veerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry cool to some people, and it'd be a cool tool to learn more about car setup for people like myself who dont have a lot of experience with fine tuning and nitpicking little things.

You mean LFSTweak built in then?

As long as offline only or opened up through InSim so server could control it would be good, otherwise no.

i tried to undersand lfstweak but my sheer computer ignorance i didnt really get it.

just like a sled car with a boxes you could add to represent car parts and assign wieght and measurement values to them so if you had time and a tape measure you could build your car on it to tune.

maybe even a server option to allow custom rails. that would be some interesting fun.

100000hp 5 lb car versues 10000000lb 1000000hp car. haha. wouldnt be the purpose but would be a little fun.

Quote from mikespeed95 :

basically an advanced mode, where you are required to spend a couple hours typing in measurements for your car's moving and non-moving parts

:jawdrop: sounds too much like a job! We need enjoyment, not employment! (somone PLZ PLZ sig that )

Quote from dougie-lampkin :

:jawdrop: sounds too much like a job! We need enjoyment, not employment! (somone PLZ PLZ sig that )

If you want it sig'd so bad why don't you do it yourself?

lol, it blows my mind if any of you have jobs with how much i time yall spend on here.

Well with LFStweak or tune you can change all of that on the cars there is in LFS. Find a car that look s a bit like ur style of car and you can change the engin position, tires, power, everything.

And with the weight restrictions ingame maybe you can get it perfectly like ur car.

Btw just a lil question... Does LFS help you in ur real drifting?

i use lfs as a way to waste time. im just curious if i could learn anything from the physics engine.

You want to know how real spring changes would feel in a real life car by inputting your car in LFS? It won't work - sims are far to simplistic to get specific answers like that.

You'd be better off doing some maths to work out wheel rates and roll rates, comparing them to 'now', rather than finding 3000 variables, from chassis stiffness of YOUR car [not manufacturer spec], exact rising rate equations, bush stiffness, perfect CoG position [which will require you to suspend the car].

You just can't do it accurately enough to get a real idea - certainly no more than you'll get from the maths/Excel approach.

And this perfectly demonstrates your complete lack of understand of vehicle dynamics and mechanics. You can get a friend to send me a rude email comparing me to some unknown racer if you like, without knowing half the facts, but you have yet to demonstrate any understanding of anything at all.

-1

Quote from tristancliffe :

bush stiffness

Is this even modeled in LfS?

Exactly - it isn't, but will have a major effect on a real car! Replace your bushes with steel examples (or even rod ends, if you have the money to convert!) and see how different the car behaves, even though everything else is the same!...

thanks tristian for reading way too far into my post to make a lame personal attack.

all anyone has to do is look at my posts to see how i fully understand and preach that this is a video game and nothing like real life, althought for a video game its pretty damn good. but nice try.

for physics/exaggeration sake this would be nice to see the effects of radical changes since it shows data.

The effects of radical changes are well documented in books, websites and paddock folklore. There is no need to use LFS (or any other simulator) to tell you that doubling the stiffness of your front springs will increase understeer.

But you weren't talking about radical changes, if you read this part of your post, QFT.

Quote :

but how many of you have wondered how some different rate springs/whatever would feel but dont feel like taking the time to swap everything go to the track and do it when you have LFS already on the computer.

F1 teams test components and setups in simulators. I don't see why consumer sims can't or wont eventually be used in the same way.

But they design the cars (so they have very accurate 3D models of all the components and their attachments), so can end up with accurate vehicle models and suspension data. They only use new stuff, so can measure their stiffnesses etc, and be confident it won't degrade over 30,000 miles (because they don't do 30,000 miles). They can also do a lot more testing to correlate their results, have thousands of man hours a week devoted to CFD, FEA, Simulation, testing and analysing.

No, I don't think we'll see sensible real race car analysis in grass roots motorsports in our lifetime, for the simple reason we don't know our own cars well enough, and never will (unless we make every bit we can, and thoroughly test every aspect of bought in parts).

Quote from tristancliffe :

The effects of radical changes are well documented in books, websites and paddock folklore. There is no need to use LFS (or any other simulator) to tell you that doubling the stiffness of your front springs will increase understeer.

But you weren't talking about radical changes, if you read this part of your post, QFT.

theres this thing called "selling an idea". you should read about it since thats your forte.

i mean...then again....why use a decent physics engine to play around when bored when you can be glued to a book 24-7 and have nothing to play around with?

Quote from southamptonfc :

F1 teams test components and setups in simulators. I don't see why consumer sims can't or wont eventually be used in the same way.

simple thought pattern for an intendedly somewhat simple idea, i like it!

seriously, this thread is about "hey i want to play with settings, but maybe get an idea on changing things on my real car, it'd be kinda nifty if i could plug something similar to my real car onto lfs to play with in e-racing land, maybe i could even learn something from playing with it on here since fundemental rules will be consant with real life more than likely."

this thread is about....ok i just doubled my spring rate.

this thread is not about OMG SAVE .0001 SECOND PER LAP IRL BY PLAYING VIDEO GAMES

its about playing with things for ideas. ever wonder "what if i did this radical setup" or "what if i wanted to make my car jump"

well, know you miiiiight have a basic fundemental idea. THAT is what this thread/idea is about.

Quote from mikespeed95 :

theres this thing called "selling an idea". you should read about it since thats your forte.

And I'm shooting it down as rubbish. Maybe you should read about it; when you learn to read

Quote :

i mean...then again....why use a decent physics engine to play around when bored when you can be glued to a book 24-7 and have nothing to play around with?

Because a decent book will teach you more than messing about in a PC sim in less time, and make you go quicker in real life. If you aren't capable or willing to read and learn, then motorsport isn't for you, and therefore this thread becomes redundant.

Quote from mikespeed95 :

simple thought pattern for an intendedly somewhat simple idea, i like it!

From a simple person too, to maintain the theme.

Quote :

seriously, this thread is about "hey i want to play with settings, but maybe get an idea on changing things on my real car, it'd be kinda nifty if i could plug something similar to my real car onto lfs to play with in e-racing land, maybe i could even learn something from playing with it on here since fundemental rules will be consant with real life more than likely."

And my reply is basically "well you could, but it wouldn't tell you anything you won't already know if you even know what a spring is, and it would be accurate to any appreciable extend as cars are complex and sims are relatively simple [from the end users point of view]. You've made your point. I've made mine. You are crying about it. I'm not.

Quote :

this thread is about....ok i just doubled my spring rate.

Just for shits and giggles, or did you seriously think such a daft increase, in a sim or reality, could ever be a good thing?

Quote :

this thread is not about OMG SAVE .0001 SECOND PER LAP IRL BY PLAYING VIDEO GAMES

I never said it was. But even trying to find whole seconds in real life won't be helped by putting inaccurate 3D models and data into a simplistic simulation.

Quote :

its about playing with things for ideas. ever wonder "what if i did this radical setup" or "what if i wanted to make my car jump"

No, I can't say I have. The basic set up of a car is easily deduced in about a nano-second. There may be three or four basic car set ups, so call it 4 nanoseconds. From there you have to try things, and see what the driver likes. Then take into account how is driving, and perhaps compensating for a faster setup being, technically, worse... A computer sim WILL NOT HELP YOU!!! It might help your children, or their children. But it won't help you.

Quote :

well, know you miiiiight have a basic fundemental idea. THAT is what this thread/idea is about.

Know you might? What? Speak English please. It would help sort your argument(s) out. This thread is about some monkey suggesting something that isn't feasible, and wouldn't help real life people on iota. So I've made that clear.

If you don't like my opinion of the truth of the matter, then simply don't post your ideas on public forums. If you don't agree with me, then either keep quiet or argue the points carefully with thought. Do the latter, and chances are you'll agree with me on this matter. Unless you happen to know nearly everything about your car, from sectional stiffnesses of the chassis, to perfect tyre friction versus slip angle curves, and much much more.

If you want to know what doubling your spring rate is, it's this:
Terrible ride.
Understeer or Oversteer depending on the wheel rates, which you probably have ignored, and also roll rates, which I doubt you've thought about.
Dampers MILES from optimum, even with 'adjustment'.
Stupid ride heights
Poor suspension alignment, if not statically, then in roll and pitch.

Need I go on? I didn't need to even look at LFS's icon to work that out...

While I agree with Tristan, that sims are only as accurate as the data they are fed, and getting some of the required data is very difficult, it does not rule them out completely.

LFS is good in the sense that you can get in and drive and attempt to feel the difference, but a lot depends on the tyre model. Since all tyres differ, unless yours truly match with LFS, then the results will be suitably skewed.

Approaching things from a different angle, but ultimately constrained by exactly the same limitations, is my analyser (see sig if you're not familiar), which I keep trying to push in more of a real world direction with every release. It does what you are asking of but you cannot "get in and drive", as it were.

Quote from tristancliffe :

From a simple person too, to maintain the theme.

GO **** YOURSELF TRISTAN - and I'm sure I speak for most people on this board, probably everyone you have ever met and worked with and your mother too.

Perhaps most people on this forum.
Not likely most people I have ever met.
Possibly people I have worked with recently.
Certainly my mother (bit of a falling out when she said she'd rather I died instead of my brother).

Just because you can't keep up in an argument, in so much that your technical abilities fail before the end of a discussion, doesn't mean you need to resort to swearing...

Incidentally, are you mikespeeds mother, or do you like defending his ignorance? Should I await another amusing email comparing me to a professional race person, or will it be done here (in public or via PM)?

Quote from tristancliffe :

...

You have got issues, get some help. Seriously.

I have issues with lots of things. One of them is people posting ridiculous stuff about "making LFS a tuning aid for real cars", but being totally unable to back it up with reasonable thoughts and explanations, and falling back on 'Feck you Tristan' when they can't cope with the technical side of things their posts encourage, deserve and require.

I have other issues too, like what wallpaper to put in my hallway, or what damper settings to use as baseline on an Exige. But they aren't important right now.

Quote from southamptonfc :

GO **** YOURSELF TRISTAN - and I'm sure I speak for most people on this board, probably everyone you have ever met and worked with and your mother too.

Tristan is one of the more intelligent living breathing people (not a chapter out of an encyclopedia) on the internet that I have seen on the topic of cars, as well as tearing people to shreds.

His posts are hilarious, and the people usually have it coming

Whats the point of starting an argument if you don't expect there to be someone to say you're wrong??? Thats just no fun.

Maybe if you look past the insults and show some interest you might just learn something, or worse yet...even agree with him.

Quote from southamptonfc :

F1 teams test components and setups in simulators. I don't see why consumer sims can't or wont eventually be used in the same way.

Quote from mikespeed95 :

i mean...then again....why use a decent physics engine to play around when bored when you can be glued to a book 24-7 and have nothing to play around with?

The systems real teams use will not be real time, the real time motion simulators they use for driver training will be fairly similar to commercial simulators, still bound by current hardware restrictions but with massive budgets and access to information. The non-real time simulations, which is what you're suggesting generate multiple full time jobs to simulate and develop one car. It isn't realistic to try and do this on your own and would not be a few hours work, the basic principles and results of radical setup changes can be easily read in books or seen in any vaguely similar car in a current real time simulation. Tristan has far more knowledge in this area than either of you and even I can see you haven't got a clue so I'd read his posts if I were you