Last night was without a doubt one of the worst ever in OLFSL history. Due to that I want to clear/point out a few things.

This league currently runs because of 2 people: me and FienDi. We have one host, who helps out occasionally and 2 guys who have a task; Scirocco is working on the rules update, and Solar Hydro is the Appeals Arbiter.

Me and FienDi started thinking last night, and I think it's time to say this. We use 98% of our free time (what's left after FienDi comes from work/school and I come from school and get my homework done) to keep this league running, we do not only do this for free; we actually pay to keep OLFSL going. The league has no income, so we take the money out of our own pockets. Also even when we're at work/school, we think about new events and ideas for fun minievents, just so you guys would have a lot of fun racing! Often our own personal life comes in second, because we put the league first.

Now my question is: is this what we get in return?

To be honest this doesn't exactly make us want to think of new fun minievents. Luckily most of you enjoyed it and had fun!

Some of you entered the server just to start complaining and went on and on with it even after FienDi apologized twice. What more could he have done at that point?? It was the last pool of the evening, and no one else seemed to have a problem with the concept.
The official complaint about us letting priits continue after the disconnection I kind of understand, but complaining about the fact that we didn't use reverse starting order in this one race, is to me nothing but being petty and making others feel bad because of very meaningless little things. As pointed out before, this was not a normal 2 start race.

I'm sorry if some of you got the wrong idea of what the race was supposed to be. Maybe we can improve the Race Calendar a bit and in the future this kind of things will be there as well.

Things don't always go your way, we have a lot of members and many of them have a request about our events. That's a good thing, but we can't always please everyone. If we do one thing, someone else wants the other. However, we do try our best with this league.

There are still many flaws in the rules, but those are being updated as we speak. Actually have been for months now. A lot of things have changed since me and FienDi took over, and because of that the rules haven't been up to date in a long time. However we agreed with the staff, that update will be postponed until S2 is released.

Some of us work really hard so you'd have a league to race in. We do improve it all the time, but no one is forced to be with us. We warmly welcome everyone who wants to join us and stay with us, but that doesn't mean we can take anything..

As long as we have those guys who stood up for us in the chatterbox and keep thanking us and participating in our events, this is all worth it.
This for all those guys: THANK YOU!

Btw.. this is just my opinion and has nothing to do with OLFSL. The thank you is on behalf of OLFSL though :thumb3d:

Sincerely

Mrs FienDi

For reference, the full text of a draft Appeals Arbiter decision on the priits case has already been prepared last night after the races, and will issued shortly.

Solar Hydro, Appeals Arbiter

hi Mrs FienDi.

Well i understand your point, i didnt had the chance to participate in this league but some team mates had participated and they had liked this test, i say test coz i face this S2 first Encounter as a test for the future olfsl seasons so its normal to have some mistakes.

For other hand i admire your devotion to the league and i am disappointed with some complaints that i saw in the league and some things that happened during the event with some of the admins.

I believe that the next season will be full of successes and fun.

good job and good luck for mr and mrs fienDi and also to all the olfls team.

Best Regards

i'm surprised that there were notable complaints - haven't recognized a single one in the pool5 race and really do not find something big enough to complain about...

like sais before the season even started - this is a test of the new functions of S2 and since it was a test, it's clear, that a few things aren't perfect

all i can say is thank you for the your efforts to make the league as good as possible - it was well worth joining and i will definetly be back for the full season

and also a big thanx for making it possible that newbies like me can also join and have fun with similar skilled drivers - something that's missing in most other organized leagues/events i know

Well I have a few things to say:

Firstly, FienDi did come into the Pool 3 Server and stated to Richard Torp that the second race was not to start in reverse order and there was no complaints, even tho it was just after the sprint race. (atleast thats what I remembered, and good fun was had )

Secondly I appriciate all of the OLFSL crew's hard work, and if it wasn't for them I probably wouldn't be in a league, when I first started playing LFS this was the league I joined and I aint turned back, I got lots of help and they use a fair system so that we all race with someone similary paced.

Thirdly I kindly ask you setup a PayPal donation on your site(or something similar), I would gladly donate something every now and then
I know you are not asking for money in any form, but I am sure I am not the only one you would like to help.

Fourthly Unfortunately I can not help with hosting as I only have 128Kb upload speed (soon to be 256Kb tho). Also I know very little web programming (But I can edit pages ), but if there is anyway I can help share the workload you all have please ask, I'll do anything I can

Lastly I would like to say "THANKS!!!"(again) for a great league and some great races

same here - if there's a way i can help, just say so. i have not the greatest knowledge in web page programming but used to run a few small sites

i also have plenty of experience in community managing, as i'm assistant at a browsergame and head admin for the german community and i used to organize hockey tournaments and leagues for a german inline-hockey federation some years ago, so i should be able to take some minor organizing things into my hands

if all works out well, i might also be able to help with hosting, since the team i'm currently with is thinking about investing in a 23 slot server

and about the pay pal donations - i wouldn't have a problem donating a few euros (although i'd prefer moneybookers) now and then

Mrs FienDi, I think you met with one of the prizes of success. The OLFSL has a lot of prestige these days. The top pool offers the most of this prestige and that can make people nervous. I am gratefull for my lacking learning ability. Now I can enjoy the full immersion of LFS in the midfield :tit: .

Don't let yourself be disappointed by some comment. These issues should be dealt by a neutral referee. When you are so personaly involved this can be hard. You dont want issues.

I think the race organisation was perfect. Why reversed start after a sprint race? Thats what the sprintrace is for! You can have a incidental hotlap but are you realy fast? With me there was no doubt. My hotlap was 10th. I finished both the races 9th of 13. Sounds boring! Was very exciting .

Of course the OLFSL can count on support from lots of its competators. There are also some webdevelopers that are willing to support OLFSL. They say I am a professional. (Just made my own site for my new founded team.) When you are already 98% commited there is very little room for expansion for the OLFSL. Isn't that a pity?
[etals:]


Greetz, HeerBommel

Thanks guys.. If you want to help, send me an email and tell me what you can do. [email protected]

98% of our free time.. yeah, that's true. But there actually is room for more, because back in the André days everything had to be done manually, nowadays it's different. FienDi has made a lot of it automatic, otherwise we would have been forced to quit a long time ago. He keeps making changes to make our work easier and cut off some of it.

I personally am trying to learn html at school and FienDi is teaching me to update OLFSL website (as you may have noticed ), but it will take time before I can do anything myself, from scratch that is..

I've had this idea for a long time, so this might be a good time to bring it up.. If we would get a deal of OLFSL stuff, like t-shirts, hooded jackets, mugs, caps, towels, season cd's etc, would there be any interest in those? There would be a OLFSL shop on the site.
Let me know.. If there's interest, I'll start working on that, if not, I'll bury it deep

could be a great way to cover the running costs

you just need a talented artists to design some good looking logos and maybe a good idea for a slogan

there are shops like spreadshirt that offer merchandise webshops for very little cost and without the risk of producing large ammounts of merchandise before it's sold...

if it looks good, i'd definetly buy stuff

Quote from Mrs FienDi :

I've had this idea for a long time, so this might be a good time to bring it up.. If we would get a deal of OLFSL stuff, like t-shirts, hooded jackets, mugs, caps, towels, season cd's etc, would there be any interest in those? There would be a OLFSL shop on the site.

A month ago I founded a new team with another well known driver Bandino. A few basic principles I stamped on the team where: no commercials, no sponsors, no money, no owner ...

I knew Bandino was studying at university. Later I asked what he was studying. It was economics ...... :bananalla . Allways good to have a hobby that is not too close to your profession.

Firstly, thank you both for a great league. I haven't been with you long, but so far I can only praise it ESPECIALLY as you do it for the fun and not the money! Please keep up the good work.

Secondly, I thought it was written on the web site that the finishing order of the four lap race would decide the start order for the main race... I personally got disconnected before the end of lap 2 of the 4 lap sprint (my adsl dropped out), so I started last in pool 4 (which was 12th) and finished 6th. Again, sounds boring, but was anything but, I really enjoyed it. I can't wait for the season proper to start. I now feel reluctant to race on "public" servers, I would much rather race here!

Once again, thank you very much Mr & Mrs FienDi and all those involved.

Tim

ps I would be interested in OLFSL merchandise.

Quote from t1ger :

I now feel reluctant to race on "public" servers, I would much rather race here!

I am not reluctant but I hardly join public servers. No time with all these organised races! There are enough and you can train on their server the week before. This should keep you occupied for a long time.

Edit: Yap, this is the best league to join. There are others that are also great. But only one can be ......

really surpised that anyone can complain about having a league and servers very well organized without paying a single dime...
I've never been involved in creating/maintaining a league, but i have some experience with gathering individuals for a common goal (most noticeably, the ex-RCME team - for which i pay - that does heaps of stuff for Racer, and now merged with Team Evolution to add depth to the LFS section).
people tend to forget the immense ammout of effort, dedication, time and money that these guys put into this league.
This has been my favourite league since the beginning and this is where i improve my driving. for that, my sincere Thank yous

The merchandise thing sounds great to me, a PM is on its way to you Mrs.FienDi

First of all I want to thank the "Fiendi's" for their hard work. Running something like this is never easy, but it is much appreciated.

Second, I want to echo Pab's suggestion of setting up a paypal account to accept volentary donations. I have donated to other leagues and would be more than happy to donate to yours. I know that you most likely want to keep the league open to everyone and do not want to hang any financial responsibility on this. That is OK. I view donations as a way of saying thanks for the races, even if another one is never held again.

Third, One of the quirky things about human nature is our ability to form groups and recognize the authority of the group. You are in the unenviable position as the leaders of our little community. This means that when somebody is disgruntled, they will expect you to fix it for them. Either way, somebody has to make the decisions and enforce the rules. Without this kind of guidance, the league would be sure to fail. Some people might not like it, and some will feel they were treated unfairly, but guess what... that's life. This is entertainment for us all and the people joining in must accept that there will be mistakes and there will be situations that they will not come out ahead on. It is just the way it is.

Keep up the good work. You are running a professional quality league.

I have had a lot of fun (and yes, frustration) in the races. The frustration comes from not finishing as well as I felt I should have. It is on me to fix that, not the league.

This last race is a good example of what can happen that is the fault of nobody. Going into the last turn on lap 5, the driver in front of me made a mistake and slowed way down on entry to the last corner. I had to brake much harder than normal and got a tad sideways. My exit speed on the corner was very slow because of it. Fiendi came around the corner with no grip budget left and there I was, floundering around trying to get up to speed. He was left with nowhere to go and he banged into me. I spun off into the wall, damaging the front suspension. I was 1/2 to 1 second slower per lap than normal after that. I was lucky to be able to take a couple of positions back, but finished much further back than expected. This was a classic "racing incedent" that nobody wanted to happen. There is nobody to blame. Things like this happen. I was not happy about it, but I am not mad at anybody because of it. Life goes on and there will be another race

Quote from Hallen :

This was a classic "racing incedent" that nobody wanted to happen.

Yesterday I felt a victim of that in the first race. The previous sprints I finished in 5th a few times. In the real sprint someone blasted the inside, blocked and drove away. Should look how much I lost because of that. The 3rd lap I blew a lot myself so it did not matter much after all. But 2 seconds loss ???? Would have been a few places.

But this kind of counting is fatal for your joy in racing. I did not count and went full for the second race. Did I have great battles with some others! The result? Pointless, it was a great race!

Edit: not so pointless, got 4 of them :evil:

http://www.lfs-league.com/misc ... 0Pool%201,%20Race%202.pdf
hehe. No Problems

I don't really understand why there is so much trouble about complaints.

Quote from Mrs FienDi :

Last night was without a doubt one of the worst ever in OLFSL history.

I exactly felt the same that day

Quote from Mrs FienDi :

Some of you entered the server just to start complaining and went on and on with it even after FienDi apologized twice. What more could he have done at that point?? It was the last pool of the evening, and no one else seemed to have a problem with the concept.

I don't know what happend on other servers but to hear seconds before race2 of pool1 started that there is no rev. start confused me and others. And thats why i asked "Why?" That's pretty normal i think most of the others didn't have a problem with it because they never ever read the OLFSL rules on the site where this reverse starting order thing is stated!

Ok it was because of a mistake/missunderstanding/lack of info on the site and the public apology comes after that event. No problem, accepted and it's ok now, it was a test season and kind of these things have to be sorted out for the next full seasons.

Quote from Mrs FienDi :

The official complaint about us letting priits continue after the disconnection I kind of understand, but complaining about the fact that we didn't use reverse starting order in this one race, is to me nothing but being petty and making others feel bad because of very meaningless little things. As pointed out before, this was not a normal 2 start race.

Yes it was me who made this offical complaint. What's the big deal? I felt like it was against the rules (and it surely was because no one said anything about it in front of the event). But a complaint has nothing to do with the respect that i have for all of you that keep the OLFSL running (you know that because i'm long enough related to the OLFSL).

Do you really want a horde of sheeps that say in front and after every single race "YOU ARE THE GREATEST" and "I am satisfied with all and everything". I don't think so, because the OLFSL also lives from new ideas and improvements and fun.

For me it's like there are offical Appeals Arbiter, there are complaints and thats all. Nothing more nothing less. The rest should be decided after the rules by them. Things like that can only bring the OLFSL further and close the flaws in the rules. And that's good for all.

To a few guys in the chatterbox (like GS or Johnathan Russ):
I understand that when you are driving around place 40 or 50 of a league just for fun that you don't think about things like that or understand it. But others are driving in the top 10 and some people in Teams drive not for the fun only, they also drive for sponsors and or a good Team reputation. They also like to finish as good as they can and they plan race events and they think about strategies etc. so when you hear about changes, seconds in front of a race you have to say something no matter how much you like people or a league.

So that's all ;-)

Quote from BBO@BSR :

I don't know what happend on other servers but to hear seconds before race2 of pool1 started that there is no rev. start confused me and others. And thats why i asked "Why?" That's pretty normal i think most of the others didn't have a problem with it because they never ever read the OLFSL rules on the site where this reverse starting order thing is stated!

I'll say it once again: THIS WAS NOT A NORMAL 2 START RACE. If it was, the rules would have applied to it, but IT WASN'T. I also said, that the rules haven't been up to date in a long time, but update was postponed until S2 got released. Go back and read my post again, I hate to repeat myself.

Quote from BBO@BSR :

But a complaint has nothing to do with the respect that i have for all of you that keep the OLFSL running (you know that because i'm long enough related to the OLFSL).

Depends on the complaint.

Quote from BBO@BSR :

Do you really want a horde of sheeps that say in front and after every single race "YOU ARE THE GREATEST" and "I am satisfied with all and everything". I don't think so, because the OLFSL also lives from new ideas and improvements and fun.

No, and we've never asked that either. The whole point was, that if you do as much for something as we do, you certainly would like to see some appreciation! Being petty ain't that..

Quote from BBO@BSR :

To a few guys in the chatterbox (like GS or Johnathan Russ): I understand that when you are driving around place 40 or 50 of a league just for fun that you don't think about things like that or understand it. But others are driving in the top 10 and some people in Teams drive not for the fun only, they also drive for sponsors and or a good Team reputation. They also like to finish as good as they can and they plan race events and they think about strategies etc. so when you hear about changes, seconds in front of a race you have to say something no matter how much you like people or a league.

I hope you're not saying, that people who are like 40th or 50th in the standings, don't do it seriously? We all (at least most of us) are in it to have fun, but that doesn't mean we don't race seriously to win! Let's take me for example. I can leave a lot of people behind me, but there are a lot of people who I can't beat. So that makes me an average racer. Am I not a serious racer because I can't beat them all?? Or because I'm not in the top 10? If this is what you mean, then I suggest you take the plug out of your ear and let the yellow liquid come out.. If not, then ignore this part.
I'm also in it to win, but my priority is to have fun!

You (and your teammates) could just as easily have asked about the system before the race. Obviously it was not clear to you, that this event wasn't like those others have been, so why not ask to make sure? To leave a window open for complaining and make us feel bad?

Oh and just for the record.. Priits didn't LEAVE the server as you said in your complaint.. He got DISCONNECTED. Even though the result is pretty much the same, there is a HUGE difference you know..

Quote :

But a complaint has nothing to do with the respect that i have for all of you that keep the OLFSL running (you know that because i'm long enough related to the OLFSL).

I know, but Bismarck's statement before race2 about me spoiling his race was kinda personal. I'm aware that this had nothing to do with you BBO, and I know and hope he didn't mean it that way, because I'm not doing this to spoil your fun and/or race. It's like HeerBommel (I think it was him, too lazy to browse thread) said - in middle of the race & action things look and feel different, and also feelings are much more stronger. I can understand that, I've experienced that several times. However, a mistake was done - nothing can erase it, it's history now.

Maybe we could leave it behind, and give "learning-experience" a chance (if you can grasp my point here).



P.s. And no, we don't want a horde of sheeps.. Baaaaaah..

Quote from Mrs FienDi :

.... THIS WAS NOT A NORMAL 2 START RACE....

That's excatly the point. None of us knowed that in front of the race.

Quote from Mrs FienDi :

You (and your teammates) could just as easily have asked about the system before the race....

There was no need to ask about it. There was no info about it on the site so how could i/we know that it will be different as stated in the rules or even think about asking for something that looks like a normal raceday.

Quote from Mrs FienDi :

....Depends on the complaint....

I don't get that it was just a normal and formal complaint about something that in my eyes was not correct. I didn't say anything personal there about you or the staff of OLFSL, so come on please don't make it look like it was despicably.
If someone think that something was wrong - then that's what complaints are for.

Quote from Mrs FienDi :

The whole point was, that if you do as much for something as we do, you certainly would like to see some appreciation!

I know what you mean, but i also spend most (97% ;-)) of my free time for LFS and Team related things, writing news, working on a Team internal Setup-Station (instead of just driving around the tracks) etc. but you always have to live and to deal with criticism. If you can't stand it don't do things like that.

Quote from Mrs FienDi :

I hope you're not saying, that people who are like 40th or 50th in the standings, don't do it seriously?

No but i looks like none of these 2 guys (i named) in the chatterbox that said it was just moaning understand what a complaint is for.

Quote from Mrs FienDi :

Priits didn't LEAVE the server as you said in your complaint.. He got DISCONNECTED. Even though the result is pretty much the same, there is a HUGE difference you know..

There is no need trying to provoke something with things like in that quote.
But ok i apology for my lack of the english language. I surely meant that he got disconnected (but i didn't know that exactly maybe he disconnected himself or it was his provider or.... come on. He left the server and rejoined and that express it in a way which everyone can understand. The fact that he got disconnected for some reason resulted in leaving the server.

With things like that you really give me the feeling that complaints are not welcome in the OLFSL. Because after you did one you will be hated by some of the staff ;-)


Use your short free time with nicer things then getting angry about people like me who have sometimes another sight of things.
It was just a complaint and nothing more.
It was just because there was a mistake in the rules/infos but this case is already closed.

I'm off for some news writing about that raceday and making some OLFSL promotion on our site (yes some people do but there is no need to thank me. I do it not for money but for the fun of it and to help get the OLFSL bigger and better than it already is)

Have a nice day.

Quote from varjsa-9 :

.... it's history now....... Baaaaaah..

It is

Quote from BBO@BSR :

but you always have to live and to deal with criticism. If you can't stand it don't do things like that.

Criticism is something I CAN take. But there are many ways to express yourself.

Quote from BBO@BSR :

There is no need trying to provoke something with things like in that quote.

It's not provoking, there IS a difference.

Quote from BBO@BSR :

With things like that you really give me the feeling that complaints are not welcome in the OLFSL. Because after you did one you will be hated by some of the staff ;-)

Surely we are "happy" to get those complaints, that way we can fix things that are wrong in our league. But let's just say, that we all need a good long look in the mirror every now and then.. Besides, I don't hate anyone. Can't speak for others.

Quote from BBO@BSR :

Use your short free time with nicer things then getting angry about people like me who have sometimes another sight of things.
It was just a complaint and nothing more.

Oh don't flatter yourself! I would have happily strangled 3 people last Sunday, but that's the kind of anger that comes, stays like an hour and goes away. It was a crappy day, so what, I've had quite many of those since I started running OLFSL with FienDi. So far a lot more good days though.
The part that was personal, was when Bismarck attacked FienDi on the server. Don't know exactly what part you played in that. I saw some of it, and that made me angry as well. Attacking him = attacking me, has been that way since we started dating 7,5 years ago. Got even stronger when I married him 6 years ago.

I wanted to publish my opinion as me, not as a OLFSL staffmember. I think I have a right to do that. In Finland we tend to talk things through, even if it means the biggest fight of the century. It clears the air and brings people closer to each other.

This was never about the complaint, which I hope you will see if you read my first post and really concentrate. It was about how it was presented and everything that came after that.

Just out of curiosity.. which bugged you more, the fact that priits disconnected and rejoined, or that he still managed to kick your butt out there?

Quote from Mrs FienDi :

The part that was personal, was when Bismarck attacked FienDi on the server. Don't know exactly what part you played in that.

I said after the race something like that: FienDi you really killed the fun i had with OLFSL with your decision this time and left (some say disconnected from ) the server. And after the race he and me spoke on MSN and i told him to forget about it because i was really pissed about that decision.

Quote from Mrs FienDi :

I wanted to publish my opinion as me, not as a OLFSL staffmember. I think I have a right to do that.

Sure everyone has and no one said something about it.

Quote from Mrs FienDi :

This was never about the complaint, which I hope you will see if you read my first post and really concentrate. It was about how it was presented and everything that came after that.

Well, no i don't read it that way but if you say you meant it not in this way ok.
quote from your first post

Quote from Mrs FienDi :

..but complaining about the fact that we didn't use reverse starting order in this one race, is to me nothing but being petty and making others feel bad

Quote from Mrs FienDi :

Just out of curiosity.. which bugged you more, the fact that priits disconnected and rejoined, or that he still managed to kick your butt out there?

None of it. Because it's not 1 fast race or hotlap that brings you to the top so why should i battle with a driver that would get for sure a DNF and who also just started for only 1 race. And my car control and the suspension was also damaged after n1 constans turned me around in lap 12 after passing 4 drivers till then (They all including priits passed me again during that incident you would have known if you had seen the replay). It's not really funny to drive that way but pitting would have cost my a lot more time

For reference, please note the following:

The OLFSL Appeals Arbiter was totally unaware of any of the 'dynamics' discussed in previous posts (such as recriminations that I learn now may have been exchanged during a chat on MSN, in which I had no part and of which I was not informed).

The Appeals Arbiter decision was taken solely based upon the replay as I downloaded it from the OLFSL website. The appeal was granted, and resulted in a rule modification.

Complaints are not discouraged. OLFSL members should consider carefully in advance the possible validity of their complaint, and specifically if it is substantial or if it could be considered to be frivolous. Suggestions for rule changes are (generally) a matter to be separated from specific complaints, but, as is demonstrated by this case, the OLFSL Appeals Arbiter/Staff will put forward rule changes as and when it is deemed to be proportionate and appropriate in the interests of upholding the principles and spirit of the league.

The rule change resulting from this complaint is an enhancement of the 'fair play' character of the league, which may not obviously have occurred without having to assess the complaint; therefore this complaint was useful in ensuring the future fairness and success of OLFSL. Please note that 'technical measures' may also be used to enforce the new rule going forward.

Solar Hydro, OLFSL Appeals Arbiter

Quote from Solar Hydro :

...such as recriminations that I learn now may have been exchanged during a chat on MSN, in which I had no part and of which I was not informed...

I don't know anything about this!

I just had a friendly chat on MSN with FienDi (like we always have) after the race and I said something like "I said to you after the race on the server 'I was pissed about your decision in the race' you should forget it" and he said something like "np i'm used to it".
Then he asked me for help because he didn't saved the replay of the 2nd pool1 race but he knows i always do. So i send it to him.

After thinking for a while and watching the replay myself, i thought it would be better to make an offical complaint, just because there was something wrong that has to be changed for the future, that's all.

So the only "problem" is that a staff member that wasn't really involved in all this wrote "her personal opinion" in a really attacking kind of tone (in my eyes) that sounded like I did a crime by doing that complaint and so i had the feeling to say "my personal opinion" about it too, to present it in the proper light.