Quote from hyntty :

Wasn't the difference in the distance... GT's are long-distance, touring cars aren't.

Distance is irrelevant. I think best way to explain DTM is: half-touring car, half-GT car. In performance wise it's closer to GT cars anyway.

Then again DTM is as much as "touring car" than Le Mans prototypes are "sports cars".

Quote from deggis :

Distance is irrelevant. I think best way to explain DTM is: half-touring car, half-GT car. In performance wise it's closer to GT cars anyway.

Then again DTM is as much as "touring car" than Le Mans prototypes are "sports cars".

IMO, the difference is not so much in the cars themselves, but what race they're in. As TFalke55 said, 'the DTM Opel Astra and Audi TT drove in the 24h-race of LeMans'. Here, they are GT cars, as they compete in long-distance races. However, in the DTM they are Touring Cars as they compete in short races.

JM $0.02

Quote from TFalke55 :

EDIT: Sry... previously i said lemans but it was the Nürburgring... I spoke too much and thought too much about the Circuit de la Sarthe (LeMans)

I was just about ask this and noticed you had corrected it... it started to sound too much like urban legend

Quote from J@tko :

IMO, the difference is not so much in the cars themselves, but what race they're in. As TFalke55 said, 'the DTM Opel Astra and Audi TT drove in the 24h-race of LeMans'. Here, they are GT cars, as they compete in long-distance races. However, in the DTM they are Touring Cars as they compete in short races.

Besides long endurance races GT cars (FIA GT1/GT2 rules) can also compete in short races in amateur / lower series, that doesn't make them touring cars during those races does it?

And still about the DTM, the most conclusive is that they are really neither... the series has the concept of touring car series but cars are not technically true touring cars. Why no one has yet brought up "stock car" term, that's the weirdest term.

PS. About your sig, that line wasn't from me, it was quote from the article

Quote from hyntty :

And the FIA is always right, and in Max Mosley we trust...

Even though you may not like it, the FiA is (and will hopefully stay for a while) the jurisdiction of the motorsport world. Of course the FiA is NOT always right, how could I dare say that? But do you think all of the decisions your local judges do are right? No? well, then don't blame the FiA for not always being right.

Quote from hyntty :

So Dtm cars are what, just cars?

Category II cars, but there is no group in the category they'd perfectly fit in atm.

Quote from hyntty :

It's probably called "Tourenwagen" because it isn't a single seater formula.

which is wrong.

Quote from hyntty :

Although it is basically a formula car with a plastic cover on top.

which makes them Category II cars, as I said. They are completely purpose-built and only single examples.

Quote from hyntty :

Doesn't "touring car" just simply mean that the car doesn't have an open body.

Appx. J, Art. 251 ONLY covers Tintop cars and trucks. There are other appendices for Formula cars. I was wrong there - Formula cars also fall under Cat. II. They're group D and E.

Touring car is Category I, Group A. Rules state that Category I cars must be "Cars of which the production of a certain number of identical examples (see definition of this word hereinafter) within a certain period of time has been verified at the request of the manufacturer, and which are destined for normal sale to the public (see this expression)."

You can take the definitions of "Identical cars", "Homologation" and "Normal sale" from the document I already linked to twice. Basically, it means that a certain amount of cars must have been made in series production to allow these cars to be Cat. I cars. Basically, a Cat. I car's bodywork and chassis must stay the same as in production, however the higher the groups in Cat. I get, the more modifications (Spoilers, ...) are allowed.

I do not think that any formula car fullfills the needed number of identical examples needed for Cat. I. And even if they did, I doubt they would be allowed there since NO car manufacturer can sell a formula car to normal customers since they are not road legal.

Quote from hyntty :

And in my opinion, DTM is one of the best racing series ever. The cars are built to be as fast as possible, which is the point of all motor racing.

copied. I never said I do not like the DTM, I just pointed out that they got the name wrong.

Hmmmm, it sure as hell looks like a DTM car. Ralf Schumacher has been mentioned as joining the DTM series and he's got ties with Toyota (who own Lexus). Could it be?

Nah... Ralf has been talking to Mercedes about a test and that's it as far as I know. Don't think we will see him in DTM this year at least.

Quote from X-Ter :

Nah... Ralf has been talking to Mercedes about a test and that's it as far as I know. Don't think we will see him in DTM this year at least.

when it became clear that Ralf would leave Toyota, i heart that AUDI was trieing to get him and that the ITR tryed to get him racing in DTM.

If you list up who drove a DTM car as testing its quiet a great list of great drivers, e.g. Damon Hill (at Brands Hatch, Mercedes 2007) or Valentino Rossi (at Hockenheim, Mercedes, 2006 (i think))

A DTM test doesn't have anything to tell you who will be the next driver, but I think the ITR will try everything to get such a big name for the DTM as Häkkingen retires.

Finally some light has been shed on the Lexus IS-F prototype that was shown at the Tokyo Auto Salon 2008. We will not see the car in the Deutche Tourenwagen Masters of 2008. Instead the car is going to be raced in the GT300 class of the Japanese Super GT championship this year. According to our information this is a project for Lexus to prepare them selves for the new DTM rules that are expected to be introduced earliest 2010.
By Johan MeissnerThursday, 17 January 2008 09:45 CET

The shown prototype shown in Tokyo will make its race debut in the third round of the JSGT and then run full season.

ChampCar-driver Andrew Lotterer has driven the car during the testing sessions. Speculations have been made regarding the name Y.Yaguchi that was written on the side window of the car displayed in Tokyo. This is however a homeage the Lexus IS F Chief Engineer who's name is Yukihiko Yaguchi.
Source: Photo: Lexus.jp

So they are aiming for DTM after all
I wish them best of luck

Quote from scania :

...

How do those new DTM rules look like? I hope they're getting nearer to the original concept of "touring cars".

quiet interessting, wasn't there a discussion before what DTM is? Touring Car or GT? now a car, DTM like, will Race in JSGT

Quote from Fabri91 :

How do those new DTM rules look like? I hope they're getting nearer to the original concept of "touring cars".

If they weren't touring cars before, the 2009 set won't make them touring cars at all. It seems like one plan is that everything apart from the bodywork and engine is identical.

Let's hope the DTM dies soon and the drivers and teams will go to a real (I.E. Super2000 or at least with some similarity to road cars) touring car championship.

to see the DTM dying, you'd need Eclestone... he did it once, he could do it again... The strong fanbase, you find here in germany is hard to break, although the races are boring... but if boredom would be a reason for the death of a series, you'd still see the V8Star Cup racing (on my mind there were interesting races) or you would see more production car cups on television.... or you would see the ChampCars instead of the F1... but thats not the case

But Eclestone (and/or FiA?) doesn't have anything to do with the organization of DTM right? Ok so DTM follow the basic rules and regulations of FiA, and even use the same points system as F1 and WTCC etc, but it's not an official FiA championship, right?
So I don't think Eclestone has much to say about it

Quote from duke_toaster :

Let's hope the DTM dies soon and the drivers and teams will go to a real (I.E. Super2000 or at least with some similarity to road cars) touring car championship.

I'm just gonna quote myself since I'm so self-centered:

Quote from hyntty :

And in my opinion, DTM is one of the best racing series ever. The cars are built to be as fast as possible, which is the point of all motor racing.

Quote from X-Ter :

But Eclestone (and/or FiA?) doesn't have anything to do with the organization of DTM right? Ok so DTM follow the basic rules and regulations of FiA, and even use the same points system as F1 and WTCC etc, but it's not an official FiA championship, right?
So I don't think Eclestone has much to say about it

The DTM organizing body or whatever it's officially called has nothing to do with FIA (fortunately).

But remember, Don Ecclestone is the boss of all bosses in motorsport in our galaxy.

Quote from duke_toaster :

Let's hope the DTM dies soon and the drivers and teams will go to a real (I.E. Super2000 or at least with some similarity to road cars) touring car championship.

Some real championship... like BTCC?

BTCC has it's place, as does all S2000 series and I like all of them. But DTM also got it's place, as does V8 Supercar and almost every Touringcar series out there. It is the most thrilling racing you'll ever find. Cars with wings and open wheels confues me and I don't like it. Tin tops forwever

I was just referring how it has become Banger Touring Car Championship...

I have no side in this because I'm more into sports car / endurance stuff, ALMS and Le Mans you know. Too bad there's a slight depression going on, the new planned rules in 2010 should shape up things little bit

Quote from deggis :

The DTM organizing body or whatever it's officially called has nothing to do with FIA (fortunately).

Well, as it's an international championship (more than two rounds outside of Germany) the FIA have to approve it.

Quote :

Some real championship... like BTCC?

I don't know why the BTCC gets a bad name for that, whilst there are more incidents in the BTCC, the BTCC gets bigger grid sizes IIRC. Yes, there are some rather dodgy drivers (I.E. Matt Neal and Jason Plato, who are basically Hamilton vs Alonso with a roof) but not that much worse.

DTM > WTCC by far.

I tried to like the WTCC for several years, but every race just seems boring to me. S2000 cars are way too slow (atleast they seem to be so slow). EuroSTC/ETCC was far better when there still were SuperTouring cars.

DTM is also not really a touring car series. The cars are silhouettes.

I agree DTM is not what it used to be, but the glory days where in the 90s anyway. Sadly FIA had to ruin the series, as they did with all the series.

Quote from duke_toaster :

Quote from deggis :

The DTM organizing body or whatever it's officially called has nothing to do with FIA (fortunately).

Well, as it's an international championship (more than two rounds outside of Germany) the FIA have to approve it.

the organisation body of the DTM is the ITR (Internationale Tourenwagen-Rennen e. V., international touringcar races association) wich works together with the DMSB (Deutscher Motor Sport Bund, German motorsports union) wich itself is a member of the FIA (Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile). The DMSB works after the regulations of the FIA.

btw: the thingy with "more then two rounds outside of germany". The Champcars have 3 european rounds as north american based championchip in 2008 and are no member of the FIA

Ok, seems like I shouldn't have said that because it was just my assumption...

Quote from TFalke55 :

btw: the thingy with "more then two rounds outside of germany". The Champcars have 3 european rounds as north american based championchip in 2008 and are no member of the FIA

They kinda are, they are a member of ACCUS which in turn is a member of the FIA. And CCWS is listed on the FIA International Calendar. Linky.

EDIT : Interestingly, no mention of SLF on there yet ...

Quote from duke_toaster :

They kinda are, they are a member of ACCUS which in turn is a member of the FIA. And CCWS is listed on the FIA International Calendar. Linky.

EDIT : Interestingly, no mention of SLF on there yet ...

like diggis i should not tell my thoughts without controlling it