The online racing simulator
LFS with a handcontrol just makes me sick. I can agree to a XBOX port if the following is true:

* Failure to detect a wheel should erase bios, trash the TV and blow up the XBOX right in the players face.

A bit harsh maybe. Maybe I like LFS too much for my own good.
Quote from Infiniti :But with perhaps the first sim ever to find its way on to a popular console...

You forgot that consoles already have "first sims" Forza Motorsports and Gran Turismo. And because most of the the players think those are really the most realistic "sims" today (which is really sad) how can you sell them a real sim because their eyes are already blinded by Forza and GT4?
AJS - I'm trying to think of the majority here, which means a TV. So taking a high end widescreen TV running at 1360x768 is going to be quite reasonable. But compared to a similar sized high end widescreen monitor which could be running as high as 2560x1600, the difference is still going to be immense.

Back to my point though, there are still plenty of people out there with 14" £30 tellys running the latest games from consoles, and the menu system can't exclude them, so will still have to be readable on such a display. Basically any console port would have to be markedly inferior.
#29 - wien
The biggest problem with LFS going console is the fact that the devs would have to buy a devkit and a license to be allowed to publish a Xbox360/PS3 title. And those things don't go cheap, I can tell you that. (The PS2 devkit alone, was about $50,000 US if I remember correctly.)
Quote from wien :The biggest problem with LFS going console is the fact that the devs would have to buy a devkit and a license to be allowed to publish a Xbox360/PS3 title. And those things don't go cheap, I can tell you that. (The PS2 devkit alone, was about $50,000 US if I remember correctly.)

Dude... why didin't you quote me? I feel so invisible...

Quote :By the way, isn't it very expensive to develope and publish a game on either Xbox or Playstation2-3 because of the licensing costs (and the MS/Sony takes a big slice from game sale profits too)?

#31 - wien
Quote from spankmeyer :Dude... why didin't you quote me? I feel so invisible...

I'll go hide in shame now... Please ignore me.
Quote from wien : I'll go hide in shame now... Please ignore me.

Come back Wien, all is forgiven! Let's cuddle...
Posted by hallen

That is an invalid assertion. If you focus on taking care of the needs of the many (in this case people that want to play flashy games), then by definition you alienate the needs of the few (in this case pure race simmers). You can succeed very nicely by focusing on a niche market with a product specifically designed for that market. If that is not what you want, then get NFSU on your 360 and have a nice life (might I also suggest the Google toolbar... it has a nice spell checker built in).


Maybee i wasn't, in talking about the needs of the manny, i meant the long awaited aero-patch, the thing about this aero bug is that it's hard to implement even with single precision it would use a HUGE amount of cpu power to compute the air fluiding the car(!s!) around.
I apologize for unclear talking, i didn't meant to make lfs "smaller" as it is right now ca.130Mb is really good in comparsion to other "racing" related programms.
Besides how long was the aero "bug" known by now?
Guess quite long.

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posted by Boris Lozac

vbmenu_register("postmenu_68356", true);

I really don't understand you man...

(you don't have to...)


If i understood corectly, you think that LFS is gona fail, and noone would play it because our needs are not fed???

Yes, in a way that the devs can't answer the urgent bugs and problems because of manpower.
And NO because the devs have a well grown community that won't flee in terror because of "incompleteness"
Anyway the longer you work with a certain programm, then in time you'd have some whishes to be fullfilled, and that will be quite hard if you're a threesome.


WTF? This is the only game that trully listens to the players/customers, and implements what they want, and what is the best.. I myself played a small role in one of the patches back in S1 days(suggested the buton that can skip to the next song playing )...
So, i really don't know what you are talking about..
Other part if again i understood corectly, is that LFS must go to the consoles, in order to suceed...??

NO, but it should open up to more programmers that can help finding solution for problems.
You know the saying that 4 eyes see more than 2, well think of more people working for LFS in order to support the devs in their quest to programm aerodynamic-fluid-computation in real time...
Anyway i don't know from where you got that console thing


I am surprised by your posts really...


Unique people, unique oppinions, if it's possible to discuss them in a normal manner, then the better...
I am a product manager and I manage multiple, complex software products. Many times, just adding more engineers does NOT improve speed or efficiency. It would take many good engineers months if not half a year to come up to speed on Scawen's code. Then, Scawen would have to spend a portion of his time just managing what the other engineer was doing. It is a bit of a vicious circle. (Not to mention the overhead, admin requirements, and extended legal requirements of having non-principal employees)

Secondly, working faster and putting out patches on random bugs quickly is a sure way to turn a product into a total cluge (hacked together messy code). He typically release a patch that fixes several things, then we go through some quick rounds of revisions putting the finishing touches on those areas. Then he moves on to other areas. It seems very organized and efficient to me.

The aero bug has only been around since the release of S2 Alpha, because that was when aero was introduced. It does detract from play to a degree, but it does not crash the system, and it affects everybody equally. Although it needs to be fixed, it is not as urgent as you seem to think that it is. Plus, I think it only really affects the two formula cars. If it really bothers you, drive the LRF cars.
Interessting viewpoint altough i've read about your circle.
But noone except the devs can say if their product is accurate or not, nontheless it's accurate enough to use it...
It doesn't matter if a problem was just found after it's introduction.
For me it looks like as if this aero thing was never really tought-to-the-end and yet to early to be brought to lfs.
Anyway i think the alpha state is still the best excuse/tag for lfs and it's dilema, of "work in progress".
Seriously i wish all the best and brightest ideas for the devs for their life-filling project, but you have to admit that their way of developing isn't the most productive in comparsion to open-source.
Sure i see your mentioned dowsides, but hey man it's just 1! (one) man coding (right?) so even if he would spend more time on the code instead of other important things his progress would still be very slow.

I don't want to paint the devil at the wall (german saying) but i wonder what would happen to Lfs if a serious attempt from another software house was made.
And I can see what circle you tend towards.
You cannot see all the code like it were a model that you hold in your hands and spin around looking at it from every angle. The world is more monstrously complex than you can ever imagine... trying to code the real world is every bit as complex, if not more in some ways, than the real world. Bugs are going to happen, whether it is some open source project, or a private effort. With technology where we have it today, there is no way to avoid it and no simple and quick way of fixing them (every time, there are exceptions).
You can't have it both ways. It is the point I was trying to make before. If you throw a bunch of people and money at the problem, then you have to have either a very expensive product, or one that appeals to a whole lot of people. Very, very few people are going to pay thousands of dollars for a racing simulator, even if it is 10x as good as LFS. So, bigger companies will make products like NFSU, ones that appeals to more people, but sure misses the mark for race sim enthusiasts like us.
sad but true...
I think getting strung out about the aero issue is akin to banging your head against the aforementioned devils wall (German into English saying). This is just an Alpha, Scawen has never claimed it to be otherwise. We all paid our money with the understanding that LFS is exactly as it is now, warts 'un all. It is my believe that Scawen is beavering away like a good 'un trying to bring the community a patch that will fix many problems, and hopefully surprise us with some added content. What I don't want him to do is release some half baked code that he has mashed together because he feels under pressure from the community and that he needs to placate us with unsatisfactory content. I think he knows better than to listen to the great unwashed and I wished the great unwashed knew better too.

Scawen and the gang have a dream. They want to produce something that is tangible and top grade. They have chosen to make their living from building this simulator. If that is the case (Coming back on topic now, wait for it . . . .) and with me being a socialistic Capitalist then once a suitable finished version of LFS has been completed and the idea of Porting to a console market is a viable one, then let them do it. It's a large marketplace, one which personally LFS wouldn't have much of a place in but It might recoup it's money, that could do with a dose of realism . . .

But, with the evolutionary nature of PC's (Beware, lack of Console knowledge immenent) with Patches, upgrades and constant users Modige (Ige? Age? Moddige? Moddage? Mod-Idge?) wouldn't an Xbox just be simply left behind as a PC version of LFS devops over time? If thats the case you would have to seperate the servers, would then, depending on the market share, PC users be left behind as the Xbox market shoots through the roof and all efforts are put into devoping LFS2 : Redux - This Time With Guns. The Devs would be bought out by a big development house, the very thing they where trying to get out from. They would then leave with their millions and set up yet another kick arse company producing yet another stupendous Simulator.

What am I going on about . . . Does this make sense to you?
#39 - Gunn
Quote from micha1980de :
For me it looks like as if this aero thing was never really tought-to-the-end and yet too early to be brought to lfs.

For me it looks like as if your posts were never really thought-to-the-end and yet too early to be brought to this topic. You already know that we are using an alpha version and S2 isn't released yet. You already know you are using an incompleted aero model. You know it is not perfect because it is not yet complete. So why keep harping on about it as if it is some great surprise to you? You know it is being fixed yet you sound like you have been a part of the community for about five seconds.

Nothing has been brought early to LFS, rather we have been given the opportunity to use the alpha version and participate in the testing as a community. The software was at a stage where the devs believed that we would enjoy the new features. A stage where the alpha was a usable, if yet incomplete, S2. At the time of the Alpha release the devs identified where main improvements would be needed and stated:
Quote :By "alpha", we mean that everything is in place but not necessarily 100% refined or complete. So nearly all features that will be in the future Final version of S2 are there already, but there will be updates to physics, car models, track scenery, and refinement of features, between the Alpha and Final releases.

For those who have difficulty finding such information, or claim that nobody has told them that physics would be updated, just trot along to the main page of the LFS web site and read a little. Now you know that things like physics, cars, tracks and other features will be refined and that even more features are likely to be included in the final release of S2 where is the logic in asking if these things will be updated? We know the answer is "yes". We know that the devs already have identified issues then and since.

For those who like to complain about the time scale, the devs have always been up front about the changeable nature of the development and the impossibility of setting sure deadlines. I hate seeing people acting like they've been cheated or misled. The devs told us their plans and philosphy for the race sim, I know most people accept that open approach. Even if many people don't like waiting, we have little to complain about. All the "big" patches have blown everyone away simply because they were quality changes that weren't rushed through to please the masses. Where's the logic in complaining about how long it is taking?

If people can't keep their pants on long enough to wait for Scawen and Eric to do their thing then they should perhaps go and enjoy one of their other titles for a while until things are as they like them? I'm sure there are plenty of semi-satisfying rCade games to wile the hours away. Or as a completely novel approach, reading some topics on the forum can kill some time and as a bonus provide information that negates the need to complain about the bloody obvious.
actually it does..

sometimes i have a hard time understanding these native "slang" type english talking people.
But it's nothing different then talking to a "nordfriese" as a "bayer" these 2 german-slangs are very different in pronunciation so these 2 people wouldn't understand each other despite the fact they are germans speaking german...

But back to topic:

I don't want to see "hurry-code" too, so i hope someday far in the future when i'm old and grey i'll see a lfs full version...(s2)


<--- can't wait so sue me, blame me for being impacient...
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