I fink 'is point woz dat..

Sliding around corners generally is not faster BUT in tight hairpins it IS faster than gripping through it. I think that point was mentioned earlier too. Classic Japanese touge racing specifically includes these sort of corners where drifting is actually faster.

The main point though, was that drifting takes skill to perform correctly. I might add my own viewpoint too. Gripping or drifting, it takes huge amounts of skill to consistenly perform maneuvres at the utmost limit.

When it comes to drifting being a spectator sport, I got the impression that e.g. a touge is far from it. Modern race track drifting, as long as it's not done individually, is perhaps more spectator oriented but still not actually for the audience whereas when drifting individually it's the only purpose.

Needless to say real drifters don't drift alone but battle it out. If you've ever watched drifting battles, even when performed on a race track, you can tell there is an element of competition in it and the more perfectly drifting driver will end up at the line first.

*edit:
Also consider that error margins in drifting battles are very, very small. One might even say smaller than in grip racing. Drifting is done over a lesser distance (tyres don't last ) so there is less chance to catch up so backing up is simply not an option, unlike in grip racing you can wait and try the same move on the next lap. Watch how close drifters are, it looks incredibly demanding to keep the car so close, to get a better line. Keeping the car from going too wide or not wide enough and stopping the sliding altogether is far from easy, especially when the outside car's rear tyres may go slightly off the road and catch grass / dirt.

Quote :

I fink 'is point woz dat..

Sliding around corners generally is not faster BUT in tight hairpins it IS faster than gripping through it. I think that point was mentioned earlier too. Classic Japanese touge racing specifically includes these sort of corners where drifting is actually faster.

The main point though, was that drifting takes skill to perform correctly. I might add my own viewpoint too. Gripping or drifting, it takes huge amounts of skill to consistenly perform maneuvres at the utmost limit.

When it comes to drifting being a spectator sport, I got the impression that e.g. a touge is far from it. Modern race track drifting, as long as it's not done individually, is perhaps more spectator oriented but still not actually for the audience whereas when drifting individually it's the only purpose.

Needless to say real drifters don't drift alone but battle it out. If you've ever watched drifting battles, even when performed on a race track, you can tell there is an element of competition in it and the more perfectly drifting driver will end up at the line first.

*edit:
Also consider that error margins in drifting battles are very, very small. One might even say smaller than in grip racing. Drifting is done over a lesser distance (tyres don't last ) so there is less chance to catch up so backing up is simply not an option, unlike in grip racing you can wait and try the same move on the next lap. Watch how close drifters are, it looks incredibly demanding to keep the car so close, to get a better line. Keeping the car from going too wide or not wide enough and stopping the sliding altogether is far from easy, especially when the outside car's rear tyres may go slightly off the road and catch grass / dirt.

And this has to do with engine tuning how?

*edited so no one cries.

Well I don't think some tweaking (not talking about bolting on a turbo here) of engine performance is unrealistic or would create any more uneven racing than the suspension setup options already do having said that I don't think engine tunning/tweaking would add anything to LFS in its current form...

On the other hand, if in S3 component failure and stress is modeled then engine tunning would have consequences in this area and would make long races like the 24hr one just run alot more realistic and fun

What I would also love to see (as has been suggested before) is leagues/ servers being able to set rules for racing (i.e. limit setup options, sets of tyres for a race or season, etc.)

At the moment we still mainly see very short races compared to real life (5 - 10 laps average) I think this is alot to do with the fact that there is no incentive to race longer, as we just race flat out at the moment with no consideration for many of the variables faced by real life drivers, and more laps is just more of the same tyre temp/ wear has improved that situation a little. But I look forward to the day when many more factors come into play, like brake temp/ wear (brake fade/ failure), engine temp, track conditions (racing line differences dry verses wet as Tristian mentioned, different fliud spills from crashes or engine failure), component failure due to stresses imposed on the car by different driving styles, accidents, etc (engine, gear box, tyre, brake and even suspension and drive train reliability - wouldn't like to see totally random failure, failure linked to forces imposed on the car with a random element based on real life reliability data would be ideal), varing weather and light conditions during a race... just to name a few from the top of my head

I feal most of the races we see at the moment are at hotlap speed because drivers don't have to deal with varying track conditions or the reliability of their cars as in real life, then there's the issue that in a Sim you don't fear death

@MachucaA:
None at all, P5YcHoM4N gave the impression he wasn't entirely sure what the post above his was getting at and I elaborated (extensively). What's yours got to do with engine tuning? Slag ppl of with PMs if you have the need, that way "no one cries".
[/offtopic_part2]

I don't think we should have engine tuning implemented, LFS should be a race driving simulator, not an engineer's simulation. At least to a reasonable extent. I honestly wouldn't know what to do with engine tuning, nor would I have the interest to look it up. I believe tuning is done by professionals and not your average driver.

Besides, looking at all these race / server options, it's going to end up prutty annoying to find a quick race when you gotta look at a whole page of options to decide whether you like the format. Let's have the essentials only to edit, and leave the complicated stuff to either static presets or out altogether.

i will explain my post - it was mentioned earlier in the thread drifting came about because of 100000000000 hp or whatever it was (look above somewhere) all my point was thats not where drifting came from - it came from the touge. Thank you not an illusion. Drifting is by far slower on a race track but for gettin down a mountain with hairpins etc it easily quicker, otherwise why do rally driver drift? (Even on tarmac stages)

My other point was that although drifting takes power to do so, as breaking traction with 2 8 inch wide tyres needs about 400bhp, it is not just the power the drivers do have skill.

Last point was that i like engine tuning i enjoy seeing tuned car (not chavy corsa's etc, more mazda Rx-7's, nissan S15's Nissan skylines) so i am one of those 'tuner types' and it would add another dimension to racing, but lfs doesnt need it,

Hope that made sense to those who couldnt follow the first thread by me,was it was reli (for P5YcHoM4N that was really pmsl) that confusing was it?

If u didnt follow that one, i think you need some help with reading lol

Well I personaly think car mods are a great idea, infact I think if LFS was exactly like NSFU in every possible way it would be good, I'd love to drive the xfgti corning at 320km with over 1500 different combinations of body kit upgrades. I think LFS needs nitrosoxide in the cars to give that extra edge, I also beleive that if we get rid of all the race cars and have the totaly basic road cars that we turn into super cars that traval over 400km and suffer no damage after landing a 300foot jump it would be perfect. I also think we should have race meets and free roam around the city looking for hidden drift events. Also change the basic 1/4 mile drag strip to a 1.525mile windy road while you dodge traffic and don't need to steer because the car grips to the road at any speed. Another thing I think would be good is to have a dyno where no matter what the weight of your car is or the areodynamics as long as it had the same power it would drive EXACTLY the same as all the other ones with equal power.



If these suggestions were made complete I think LFS would be the best totaly unrealistic waste of time game for 11 year olds out there and would cause millions of people to waste their money on it.

I am going to have to agree with hinirags here.

Although I treat with distain anyone who calls NFSU a racing simulator show me one single real life racing car that doesnt allow for ANY engine tuning. In fact show me one single race team anywhere that doesnt have an "engine guy".

And for all those complaints about engine tuning is too difficult and hard and i dont understand....how much about suspension geometry did you know before LFS?

In fact, noobs just ask for a set and get it, so its fair to assume there are still plenty of racers who still dont understand.

The greatest advantage in engine tuning (if brought into the game correctly) it is will actual create differences! Racer A goes for a torquey setup to get drive out of the corner on his particularly soft setup, racer B on the other hand sacrifices low down torque for up top power so he can blitz racer A down the straight, but once we arrive at a corner again, the advantage is back to racer A.

In reality this is how a car is tuned to a driver, a combination of suspension and engine management.

Having said all that, I tend to agree its not something we need in S2 Final, there is a heap more to do yet, and so far the racing is great anyway.

Maybe S3, or 4, or 5 and beyond?

I think it would add unnecessary complexity to LFS. Of course RL racing teams have engine guys, but this is a single player sim and I'd bet 9 out of 10 of us wouldn't know how to set up an engine and would just go looking for/asking for the best setups, much like what happens now with suspension setups. I'd say few people make their own setups from scratch right now and often just use other people's and modify them to suit themselves (me being one of them). Engine modifications would take extensive testing to evaluate their effectiveness and I think would take up more time than most LFS'ers want to spend in the garage, or just driving around alone. And having to match such things to all the tracks available I think very few people will want to spend so much time on the engine.

I'm not saying it's an awful idea but I think it will have very limited appeal in the LFS world. Except for hotlapping or a long prac session, LFS'ers (generally) want to go to a track, pick their setup, get going and have a clean, fun race. I think the natural variation in driver skill/style and the existing suspension/gearing options already makes for good close racing (which is the whole point) and I believe adding engine options would complicate the LFS experience unnecessarily.

agreed with hankstar; here are hte main points i picked up from his post:

race teams have their own people that work specifically on the engine, some specifically with suspension, etc.. LFS is only a single person game.. so thats just plain to much for one person to learn how to do to make a car setup 'correctly' yes it would be fun, i've spent hours on NFSU2 messing with my suspension and ECU and turbo and whatnot, its tons of fun.. but when competition racing.. its not much fun when you have no idea what is good and what isnt good

and shut up FPVaaron, just TRY NFSU2 and see what its like; to some serious extents the game is real..

Quote :

and shut up FPVaaron, just TRY NFSU2 and see what its like; to some serious extents the game is real..

can i have a "LOL" :P.

Anyways, as mentioned, engine tuning may be too much for most people to handle (myself included, im no big engine tuner geek, i'm more of a suspension guy).

Imagine yourself driving for a team, what they want from you is good input about the suspension, not about the engine. And you as a driver, you can change the suspension, not the engine, its logic. Engine stuff is left for other ppl, not me, not the driver, if you want to tinker with the engine, get gearhead garage or something.

I actually agree that LFS should focus on the RACING and not the tuning side of things and it's obvious most LFS's do to thats why the community is in general so generous with sharing sets... the problem is if it is to be a Sim it needs to be realistic in as many details as possible (within the constraints of current technology of course)

The idea (engine tuning and car tweaking) has good and bad side effects though (the same as suspension tunning)
Without any type of tunning (suspension or engine) it would be pure driving skill (the ability of the driver to adapt to the situation to get the best performance out of the car) this is good for public online races, but has the downside of the driver must adapt his driving technique to get the most out of the car (which sometimes can be difficult especially with the variations in controller choice, etc.) Also the other downside is it is quite difficult to get car pairs that work well together on all tracks (i.e. XFG/XRG, XRT/FXO, etc.) so you end up with mainly one car classes again (although it might be easier if they took away all or most of the suspension settings ).
With engine tunning (which could be as simple as two or three engine choices like we have with diff's) it maybe easier for the developers to balance the car classes on all car/track combos .

As has been mentioned, in RL most race drivers don't know how to tune engines or suspensions (although many do learn as much about it as possible) they have engineers, mechanics and pit crew to take care of these details... (which is why many good set builders in LFS share their sets willingly, they want to encourage good close racing)... but this is one side of racing that makes the sport very interesting in RL, the choices and decisions the Team make ultimately see them at victory lane or not, and this can be simulated in LFS quite well in league racing
I don't think it would be unreasonable that when LFS is completed (S3 and beyond) that teams entering leagues would have a race engineer, team manager, etc... this is what real life racing is about it's a team sport not individual pursiut as alot seem to think...

MS Flight Sim springs to mind here, it attracts real life pilots because of it's realism, but also attracts others who like to fly but also have an interest in the other areas of aviation also (like traffic control) there is a whole segment of the community devoted to giving the pilots of the sim an ultra realistic traffic control system so it's like a sim in a sim

So what I think would be the best of both worlds (which I know would be complex and very time consuming to implement, thats why I say S3 or beyond) would be, have maximum complexity in tunning and adjustment settings for everything to do with a car, but also have a virtual race engineer. In real life race drivers tell there race engineers how their car is responding and the race engineer makes adjustments accordingly based on his knowledge of how that particular driver drives. This could be done even via a third party application I guess, like the replay analysers. That way people could choose to tweak their own sets or have the "virtual race engineer" do it for them, I'm sure the community still would be as generous as it currently is, so it wouldn't mean starting from a stock set, you could still download someone elses set as a starting point then have the VRE tweak the set for a particular track driver style alternatively a team could recriut a race engineer... I could even envisage that interested people (like traffic controllers in MS FlightSim) could setup services where by they offered Race Tunning of cars for individual drivers (sim within a sim)

I know I'm a dreamer but you never know it could happen

seems to me that a minority of racers wants tuning, and the majority doesn't want to be bothered about engine tuning or aftermarket parts. Right now, it IS possible to tweak the cars (mechanik or LSF tweak in near future) for offline. Online shouldn't be allowed, because most people would be put off to know about the best tuning, they just want to race on equal conditions and improve their skills.

So, seems to me, the situation we have is the best solution we could get....

Reading this whole thread as not checked the forum recently - it seems that the (possible minority) who want engine tuning and even the ones who dont agree that it would be to difficult and would put of noobs as even more to learn. Also seems to be said that maybe slightly more options in future version eg S3, S4 . . . . . .
My view is wats above - would b nice to have enigine tuning but then i doubt it would b good for lfs to have as its good already and gives close races.

I agree that very slight mods would be a good idea but it's better off having no options then a little. If you have a little people want more if you get more you suddenly have alot. then you can't remember if you clicked NFSU or LFS.

Very true. But why not be the only game to capture what no-one else can Eg; a little amount of mods.

Engine Tab
Rich-Lean Rich= safer and slower
Fuel Injectors 7ms - 1ms Lean= Faster but raises engine temp and causes detination

Boost 5psi - 22

Etc

Quote from e15exa :

Maybe you know that your intellengence Level is not quite high enough to maintain your driving level and cope with tuning aswell, Or is it that you have no Machanical Aptitude at all and feel that your hopes Lie on driving.

If you're going to be insulting and have a go at people for having low "intellengence" or no "machanical" aptitude, try proofreading your posts.

Truth is, most people who aren't in favour of this idea have been quite polite while voicing their objections and haven't implied a lack of intelligence on the part of anyone who didn't agree with them.

Also, the majority opinion around here seems to be that adding engine tuning options would add unnecessary complexity to LFS (the menus are a maze already) and more work for little gain on the part of the programmers. Most people seem to think it's not such a bad idea in theory, but also think it wouldn't add enough to LFS to justify it's inclusion. At this alpha stage of LFS's development, adding tuning options seems like far too technical an improvement to be worth including as the driving physics themselves (the core components of the game) are still incomplete.

I think most people here are race fans who want to race with as little fuss as possible. A lot of us don't even adjust setups a great deal once we dowload them either, as long as we can drive with them consistently.

To be fair on everyone, not just the noobs but most of us who are in the middle ground between "I can't drive the UF1000 around the oval using manual transmission" and "I need to shave 0.001 sec from my AS Historic time to beat the WR in the FO8", I don't think everything that's involved in RL racing needs to be included in LFS.

Quote from Hankstar :

If you're going to be insulting and have a go at people for having low "intellengence" or no "machanical" aptitude, try proofreading your posts.

Truth is, most people who aren't in favour of this idea have been quite polite while voicing their objections and haven't implied a lack of intelligence on the part of anyone who didn't agree with them.

Also, the majority opinion around here seems to be that adding engine tuning options would add unnecessary complexity to LFS (the menus are a maze already) and more work for little gain on the part of the programmers. Most people seem to think it's not such a bad idea in theory, but also think it wouldn't add enough to LFS to justify it's inclusion. At this alpha stage of LFS's development, adding tuning options seems like far too technical an improvement to be worth including as the driving physics themselves (the core components of the game) are still incomplete.

I think most people here are race fans who want to race with as little fuss as possible. A lot of us don't even adjust setups a great deal once we dowload them either, as long as we can drive with them consistently.

To be fair on everyone, not just the noobs but most of us who are in the middle ground between "I can't drive the UF1000 around the oval using manual transmission" and "I need to shave 0.001 sec from my AS Historic time to beat the WR in the FO8", I don't think everything that's involved in RL racing needs to be included in LFS.

Excellent post Hankstar! Couldn't agree more.

Hi,
I Have tried to read all this topic (but I am a little poor in English :schwitz I don't think I have understood everything....

I am with those want the possiblity of engine tweaking because I play LFS quasi only for simulate my real car.

I do some trackdays with my car and, for training, I managed to build a nearest car that suits my Sierra Cosworth 4x4 in FLS: RB4 whith same gears, one central visco-coupling, "civilian" tyres, very smooth shock absorbers.. etc

With force feedback wheel and clutch I was really amazed by realism of car driving : really really near my car.

But some paramaters are still wrong: Weight, engine power (a little more ), red line rpm, certainly torque... and... look !

My wish is:
Possibility to set all this parameters like my real car and to make races with other "real car".

But how can we prevent for some players to have a 500 hp car instead of a simple VW bettle 60 HP in real life ???? It's all the problem...

Ho ! I have forgotten:
Real noise of the engine, gravel or sand noise when we are out of track, some fire throwing out of exaust after 3 laps ;-)
And I want all this options for tomorrow please !

Yves

OK, i know ive only read the first page fo this thread but i see something going on.

Everyone is jumping to the conclusion that "Tweaking and Tuning" is teh same as "modding"

Tuning is adjusting for optimization. In the case of an engine you might adjust the timing to give you a lwoer peak horsepower, but wider powerband for slower courses, where torque is an issue, but you dont want to sacrifice all your top end either. this is just one example.

If youre allowed to adjust the suspension and gears to optimize for a track why not your timing and fuel mix (via a simple gui, no need to get complicated with actual radians or degrees on this)

Modding is grabbing a bolt on kit at your local autozone and bolting it on.

Quote from KeiichiRX7 :

OK, i know ive only read the first page fo this thread but i see something going on.

It might be a good idea to read it all then.

After a full read i dont think i missed much.

to sum up what's here, youve got your guys that want to be able to tweak and optimize, and youve got your spec racers. both are ok groups to be in, but it rather be able to adjust. I happen to fall in the former grouping.

the same could be argued about suspensions, which are actually much more complex settings wise. and you guys would be quite miffed if you didnt have them

Quote from KeiichiRX7 :

After a full read i dont think i missed much.

to sum up what's here, youve got your guys that want to be able to tweak and optimize, and youve got your spec racers. both are ok groups to be in, but it rather be able to adjust. I happen to fall in the former grouping.

the same could be argued about suspensions, which are actually much more complex settings wise. and you guys would be quite miffed if you didnt have them

I would love a server setting to lock settings, once the default setups are improved a little.

Wow this is getting a bit out of hand. In orginized racing it's not about who has the better car, it about putting drivers in very similar vehicles with a defigned performance range and letting them prove who is the better driver, not who has the better car. LFS is a Racing Simulator, as such it is designed to simulate the compitition between driver's skill.

I understand the desire to tweak and tune your cars. Most people in to drag and street racing are as the car is am important factor. For those that participate in more officialy sactioned and orginized racing the cars have to conform to the rules outlined by the governing body. Think of the limits in what we can do with the cars in LFS as those rules.

Until servers can classify and limit vehicles based on pervormance envelops, allowing people to alter the performance of the cars in LFS will only lead to non compettitive races between dis-similar vehicles. I am not saying it should never be in, just that the tools and constraints to make them viable and keep then under control need to be implimented first.

I have said my peace.

Quote from KeiichiRX7 :

I happen to fall in the former grouping.

Then, as far as I can tell, you fall in the grouping that doesn't see how engine tuning may spoil fair and even racing online. The ability to race fairly online is something most sim fans respect. An uneven playing field won't help to maintain that situation. The more tuning options you introduce, the further apart racers become in their understanding of setting up a car. To me, racing is the first goal of this sim. Fiddling around with engine specs is not needed at all and will only cause confusion for many players.
It is a bit different from the car setup options we have now, they are all fundamental and in a way are important to understand. Apart from a rich/lean mixture adjustment I can't see what value advanced engine tuning would bring to LFS. I think it would ruin the racing while producing a new "grouping" of FnF tuners who have little or no interest in racing at all.

Quote from Hyperactive :

So far only thing that I might be accepting is that the cars would have some changeable part that don't change any of the car's specs. Like wings with different kinds of shapes and rims (changeable inside he game) for ecample. But I wouldn't want any tuning stuff in LFS - most of those tuning cars look just overdone and childish to me

Yep, because bodykits add 50hp

Quote from Dasser :

And the possibility of changing spoilers or adding spoilers for better looks and traction.

illepall

Quote from Gunn :

I think it would ruin the racing while producing a new "grouping" of FnF tuners who have little or no interest in racing at all.

FnF was all show, no go.
I love the idea of fine tuning your engine, but as you said. The idiots that have no idea cry about it.