If n00bs should drive way underpowered cars because its safer, then by all means do get your new drivers a mint condition 3 cylinder Geo Metro! It's absolute lack of power means it will reach a top speed of 76 MPH maybe. It has good handling due to being as heavy as a bike, and it comfortably seats 2. Also, who doesn't like a convertible top?

There is one problem.

The Geo Metro is about as safe as driving a bunch of beer cans welded together in the shape of a car. If he/she hits a parking meter too fast, the results can be devastating!

So, instead of the n00b driver dying from rolling a super car on a twisty road at 100+ MPH, the n00b driver will die from a head-on while trying to pass someone on a 2 lane road at 40 MPH.

Really, then, it's not so much how fast the car that is being driven (although there is some accuracy to that) as it is the responsible education of the driver that needs to learn how to safely operate a 160 BHP grocery getter!

Quote from Impreza WRX :

If n00bs should drive way underpowered cars because its safer, then by all means do get your new drivers a mint condition 3 cylinder Geo Metro! It's absolute lack of power means it will reach a top speed of 76 MPH maybe. It has good handling due to being as heavy as a bike, and it comfortably seats 2. Also, who doesn't like a convertible top?

There is one problem.

The Geo Metro is about as safe as driving a bunch of beer cans welded together in the shape of a car. If he/she hits a parking meter too fast, the results can be devastating!

So, instead of the n00b driver dying from rolling a super car on a twisty road at 100+ MPH, the n00b driver will die from a head-on while trying to pass someone on a 2 lane road at 40 MPH.

Really, then, it's not so much how fast the car that is being driven (although there is some accuracy to that) as it is the responsible education of the driver that needs to learn how to safely operate a 160 BHP grocery getter!

Touche (with the little accent thingy over they e...)

Quote from atlantian :

a 135 hp saloon, is like a lancer or a corolla, hairdresser and a car for the broke

It's still too fast to be driven near flat out safely on all but a few interesting roads so for anybody who wishes to drive quickly it's a bad choice of car.

@Dark Elite - I don't think you've realised quite what reading a road and traffic means and just like all learners you'll be completely out of your depth the first time you drive down a main road

Quote from ajp71 :

It's still too fast to be driven near flat out safely on all but a few interesting roads so for anybody who wishes to drive quickly it's a bad choice of car.

I honestly find that statement to be ridiculous. ANY car cannot be driven flat-out safely. You'd be just as likely to die going flat-out in any car, considering that any of those cheap 90-mph top speed hatchback cars aren't built well enough to save your life if you hit something at any speed over 20.

The ridiculous part though is just the fact that if a car can go fast "flat out" that automatically means it's a bad car for a learner. I'll say it again, if you really think that the person is going to take his car flat out whenever he gets the chance, as a parent, you shouldn't allow him to buy a car or drive it.

I honestly believe that the solution could easily be an ANONYMOUS tracker in the person's cell phone. It would not track position, JUST speed, and would just send an email to the parent IF speeds exceeded, say, 85 mph. That's all. If you have to go 85 mph to overtake someone, I'm fairly certain that you shouldn't have needed to overtake them to begin with. Problem solved. Even better, it would report speed to the police, or the insurance company maybe, which would raise insurance if the speed was exceeded. There are so many ways to keep a person's speed in check. Or just require all teen drivers to have a GPS chip installed in their vehicle that does the same thing.

Quote from ajp :

Dark Elite - I don't think you've realised quite what reading a road and traffic means and just like all learners you'll be completely out of your depth the first time you drive down a main road

Like I said - I know my experience comes nowhere near preparing me for road driving, and I will be out of my depth the first time I drive on my own on a public road; just a bit less so than most first-time drivers. The bit that irks me is that my experience, however minor an impact it may have, isn't taken into account at all. :rolleyes:

Having a tracker installed in cars by law is an extremely sensitive thing to think about, and I feel that some sort of privacy protection will disallow it. It has also been said by plenty of high-up people in the industry that any device which is not controlled by the car, entirely internally, cannot be permitted to affect the car's behaviour. Something like a GPS speed restrictor, which uses throttle and brakes to restrict speed, could also be made to crash a car, and so this isn't really viable. Trackers, though, remain quite unlikely, and the concept of trust should really make them redundant

Sam

Quote from Stang70Fastback :

I honestly find that statement to be ridiculous. ANY car cannot be driven flat-out safely. You'd be just as likely to die going flat-out in any car, considering that any of those cheap 90-mph top speed hatchback cars aren't built well enough to save your life if you hit something at any speed over 20.

Quote :

The ridiculous part though is just the fact that if a car can go fast "flat out" that automatically means it's a bad car for a learner. I'll say it again, if you really think that the person is going to take his car flat out whenever he gets the chance, as a parent, you shouldn't allow him to buy a car or drive it.

The Morris Minor we've got in our garage has to be driven as fast as it physically can to get anywhere vaguely quickly, same goes for the less powerful Minis and some later hatches. You can have genuine fun in them on crap tires as fast as they're able to go at half the speed you'd be traveling in a 200bhp car. You can't get away from the fact that E=½mv2 and simply not hitting something as hard is far far better than adding tons of safety features to make a stupidly fast car 'safer' in an environment where its performance is total overkill. I would have used the Minor as a learner car if it wasn't for the fact that getting insurance wasn't possible for me due to its age.

Quote from Dark Elite :

Like I said - I know my experience comes nowhere near preparing me for road driving, and I will be out of my depth the first time I drive on my own on a public road; just a bit less so than most first-time drivers. The bit that irks me is that my experience, however minor an impact it may have, isn't taken into account at all. :rolleyes:

You have no experience. You can operate a car that's it. It's not difficult to drive a car a lot of people can do it before they start learning on the road and most will pick it up in a week or two. For an insurance company that stage is pretty much non-risk because they're unlikely to get a massive third party claim as a result of someone trying to drive down a side street at 5mph.

Quote from ajp :

You have no experience. You can operate a car that's it.

Well, I'm sorry, but if driving a dozen different cars amongst others in cars - and on foot - in different conditions, on a hundred different days, is not experience... I've no idea where you draw the line between a complete newcomer and someone with at least some basic preparation.

Sam

Quote from Dark Elite :

Well, I'm sorry, but if driving a dozen different cars amongst others in cars - and on foot - in different conditions, on a hundred different days, is not experience... I've no idea where you draw the line between a complete newcomer and someone with at least some basic preparation.

Sam

Don't mind these people. The first time I got in a Helicopter the Instructor was not impressed that I had hundreds of hours in a simulator and no real seat-time. He was a little more impressed when I was given the controls and produced a fairly competent hover. Patterns were a breeze. The next time out, at about 1.5 hours TT and completing many maneuvers better than many 10-20 hour Pilots (20 Hours in an R22 can be $6000 or more) I was asked if I'd ever done any "Autos" (Autorotations.) The simulator stigma is starting to go away as more people enter the industry having first flown sims. The old timers still think doing it the old fashioned way is the only option. Yes - your LFS racing experience does give you an edge. It may also have instilled some bad habits as well so be on the lookout for those. Check each intersection your cross; cross traffic is supposed to stop but it certainly doesn't mean they will. Things like this don't crop up as much in LFS. Situational awareness is key though.

Real track/off road experiences and necessary skills are completely different to road driving. If you said you'd been clocking up hours in a learner driver simulator that might be slightly more relevant.

You're wrong. Simulator driving, real-racing and off road experience is VERY relevant to on road driving. By your logic, a defensive driving course would do nothing to enhance a person's on-road driving skills, and yet it is the MOST HIGHLY RECOMMENDED and ENCOURAGED driving lesson to take to make you a safer and better driver. Racing is essentially DEFENSIVE driving. The fact that I know which way to steer when my car goes into a spin to keep it going the way I want is EXACTLY what defensive driving teaches you.

I know people who intuitively turn the wheel the WRONG way when going into a slide. LFS has taught me MANY things about the physics of a vehicle's motion that I would not have learned otherwise - especially in a car that does not have enough power to do anything remotely dangerous. I have, in multiple instances, had the rear tires on my car swing loose - be it the result of snow, black ice, or hydroplaning - and I can tell you, while it's still scary as hell when it happens unexpectedly, I feel way more confident controlling my car in these situations because of my LFS and off-road fun experience. That does not mean I'm going to be COCKY and simply ignore all the laws of physics and assume I can correct for any slide at any speed, it only means I have more respect for the car, the road, the physics involved and a greater understanding of what the limits are.

Your statement is not only unsupported, but plainly wrong.

Quote from Stang70Fastback :

if you really think that the person is going to take his car flat out whenever he gets the chance, as a parent, you shouldn't allow him to buy a car or drive it.

Well, isn't really that dangerous to go "flat out" if you are on a highway. Most highway crashes are not the result of speeding. As long as you aren't exceeding the speed rating of the tire, and there is no traffic.

Quote from Stang70Fastback :

You're wrong. Simulator driving, real-racing and off road experience is VERY relevant to on road driving. By your logic, a defensive driving course would do nothing to enhance a person's on-road driving skills, and yet it is the MOST HIGHLY RECOMMENDED and ENCOURAGED driving lesson to take to make you a safer and better driver. Racing is essentially DEFENSIVE driving. The fact that I know which way to steer when my car goes into a spin to keep it going the way I want is EXACTLY what defensive driving teaches you.

The driving test and learning is mainly focused around interacting with roads and traffic. Understanding how to drive a car at the limit should be irrelevant for any road driver, you will not experience extreme road conditions, traffic, pedestrians, navigation, lane use, round abouts or the majority of what new drivers struggle with on anywhere other than on the road or possibly a simulation of it. A sim or track experience can help make you a better driver in the long run but before one's even passed their test you shouldn't be worrying about driving fast and any illusion you can on the road is plain dangerous. As for the basics of car control, yes a sim will help you with that as will karting a track day or a muddy field. No doubt it helps to have that before hand but it should be completely irrelevant until at least after passing the test. The only time I needed any car control whilst learning was when I had a high speed blow out, hardly anything tricky but I know a lot of learners (and experienced drivers) panic the moment they end up in danger, a compulsory car control course/test may well be a good idea if all it does is gets people to remain calm and do what should be natural when it goes wrong. I still maintain though that car control is a minor (but absolutely vital) element to road driving and simply understanding car control isn't going to help you read the environment properly and have the confidence to drive safely on the road and for that reason in no way counts towards basic road driving experience, maybe it's the icing on the cake but you need the building blocks first.

Depending on the driver I believe (sim-)racing experience can work both ways: Either it makes you too confident in your car control so you take unneccessary risks / drive absent-mindedly, or it will give you a better feeling for what can go wrong. Before starting simracing and without a lot of driving experience I took quite some stupid risks when driving of which I only later fully understood how dangerous the situations were. Starting simracing has certainly made me become a much more careful driver.

And for the record, the car I made most of my driving experience with was a 45hp/800kg Polo and I agree that this snail of a car (0-100kmh in 21s according to the manual) was much more fun than the more powerful and heavier cars I have driven and also got me everywhere more than fast enough.

Saying that a 100+hp car is not fast enough to get you in trouble seems to miss the point. As soon as you get to more than walking speed you can easily kill a pedestrian and also yourself if you are unlucky enough. Just imagine moving an object more than 15 times your weight at more than double the speed you can dash. Then pair this figure with a city driving situation and remember the last time you knocked your foot on a table leg while walking around in your house. Measure the result in "Ouch".

Quote from ajp71 :

The only time I needed any car control whilst learning was when I had a high speed blow out, hardly anything tricky

On the rear or front?

Quote from Stang70Fastback :

On the rear or front?

Instant blow out of the nearside rear, ran over a piece of metal plate with both nearside tires at 60mph, it the front flung it into the sidewall of the rear tire. Saw it too late under the shadow of a bridge to safely slow down and couldn't avoid it because there was oncoming traffic. Car control helped me to know not to close the throttle on a FWD car when I realised it had blown a rear tire and bring it to a safe stop but it was road skills that let me know I was in for a bump and quickly decide that I had no option but to run over it without slowing. Of course in reality something like that happens in a split second and all the skills merge into one, but situational awareness is still imperative TBH because if I hadn't spotted it (my driving instructor didn't) I'd have had the shock of my life.

Quote from benja-man :

Depending on the driver I believe (sim-)racing experience can work both ways: Either it makes you too confident in your car control so you take unneccessary risks / drive absent-mindedly, or it will give you a better feeling for what can go wrong. Before starting simracing and without a lot of driving experience I took quite some stupid risks when driving of which I only later fully understood how dangerous the situations were. Starting simracing has certainly made me become a much more careful driver.

And for the record, the car I made most of my driving experience with was a 45hp/800kg Polo and I agree that this snail of a car (0-100kmh in 21s according to the manual) was much more fun than the more powerful and heavier cars I have driven and also got me everywhere more than fast enough.

Saying that a 100+hp car is not fast enough to get you in trouble seems to miss the point. As soon as you get to more than walking speed you can easily kill a pedestrian and also yourself if you are unlucky enough. Just imagine moving an object more than 15 times your weight at more than double the speed you can dash. Then pair this figure with a city driving situation and remember the last time you knocked your foot on a table leg while walking around in your house. Measure the result in "Ouch".

At the same time that I probably corner a bit too fast than I should at times in real life, how much I know about what happens when things go wrong scares the crap out of me. And inattention causes most accidents, and I am anything but inattentive because of this (eyes never leave the road for more than a second, usually just a split second to gauge where something is in the car). I do have to say that even in some relatively extreme conditions and with some car issues (beater issues, broken front swaybar endlink throughout one winter, balding rear tire another winter), I've never gone off the road or spun (accidentally) my rwd 84 supra. I'd like to think that this useless simulator helped me a lot, considering I had never driven rwd before I sat in that car and I started driving it at the start of winter. I did however manage to go off the road once on ice my first winter driving solo (parent's minivan), very light corner doing the speed limit when road conditions changed as I started into my friend's housing development.

And all this talk about hp is kinda meaningless. It's more about the car's package. My car (160hp) scares my friend more to screw around in than it does his 400hp 3000gt vr-4. My car being willing to snap at the wrong inputs from an inexperienced driver, his car just glued to the road.

I agree that if someone has spent time with a car "out of shape" you will have a better knowledge on how to recover when things go wrong. This is a good skill to have on the road and will save your life

It is also a skill that is never taught to most drivers, the risks of teaching it are too high for teacher and student

The trouble with things like track and sim experience is that these environments are very very alien compared to the road, which is full of the great unwashed. Track and sim experience can lead to a skewed belief that people in cars are predicable and that they will do things the "correct way". Everyone on a track or in a sim is driving the same way because they want to drive fast.

On a track you KNOW they won't:

• Lean across to the passenger footwell to reach their mobile that is ringing, head below the dash so they can't see.
  
• Drink 5 pints down the pub and think they can drive home.
  
• Turn into a side road and because they are from another country and suddenly forgotten which side of the road they are meant to be on start driving down the wrog side of the road.
  
• Pull out of a side road at the last second forcing you to stand on the brakes because they think thay can make the gap.
  
• Drive from the fast lane, across 3 lanes of traffic to reach the exit ramp at the last second because they noticed the sign at the last second.
  
• Stop in the middle of the road and start looking at their map or have a huge argument with their other half because they took a wrong turn.
  
• They won't adjust the rear view mirror so they can see themselves so they can put on their makeup while driving.
  
• They won't drive with their newspaper folded up in the middle of their steering wheel so they can read it on the way to work.
  
• Tune their radio while approaching a corner, look up and realise where they are and then stand on the brakes when they panic.
  
• Get so pissed off with the "slower" car in front of them that they overtake a car on the approach to a blind hill/corner.
  
• Won't sit 3mm off your bumper no matter the speed trying to make you go faster because they are late for work/meeting/date etc.
  
• Be so involved with the conversation their mates are having in the car that they are not looking at the road.

You might find it hard to believe that there are people stupid enough to do some of these but it is just the normality you will experience every single day on the road. This is what the track and sadly even the driving lesson does not teach you

NOTE: I am not saying the list is the fault of the young. There are cupid stunts of all ages that will pull the above and more on you day in, day out. You will even do some of them yourselves at some point in your life even if you believe you won't, don't fool yourself on this.

This is what I tried to say with battle hardend in an earlier post. The road is full of c*nts and some days on the road you will just not believe your eyes

This is why insurance companies will NOT take into account ANY track experience. Some might even load you up higher as your confidence in your skills can make you an even higher risk in a road setting because you feel you already know.

The UK insurance system does limit what people can drive on the road. The younger you are the less you can afford to drive. Try and get a quote for a 911 at 17 with no road experience to see what I mean.

But it is an unfair system based on cash and not skill. Why is a rich kid safer in a 911 because he has rich parents?

The more I think about the more the solution is probably that EVERYONE no matter what age is power limited in what they can drive UNLESS they pass the advanced driving test. At least it stops the people that should not even be on the road driving a fast car. On a bike you are power limited with staged tests, why not cars?

The thing that nobody appears to acknowledge in this thread is that the more a car is tuned for speed the more BORING it becomes at slower speeds. A car that is made to do 150mph gives you a false sense of safety while driving at 90mph. This is a fact anyone that has long enough experience in a range of cars will agree with. Its the reason you see performance bike pushed hard, anything tuned to operate at 10000rpm and go at 140mph+ just is not fun at 50mph.

For me the most FUN cars I have owned have ended up being the slowest, my 1977 Mini Clubman and a 2CV. It was not SAFE enough to push my BWM Mini Cooper as hard on the road, so you just ended up frustrated stuck behind "slower" people etc.

Insurance companies do cut your rates if you have taken a defensive driving course.

Quote from Stang70Fastback :

Insurance companies do cut your rates if you have taken a defensive driving course.

And they should if it is a recognised course. They do also in the UK if you pass the advanced driving course, probably similar.

Try going to one and say I have just passed my test but I have 3 years track racing experience though and see what they say

Stop the music!

The whole problem about "power limited" is that many way underpowered vehicles that you recommend are beer cans when it comes to safety. If they get hit by someone else, which does happen too you know, it means certain death, especially when they are hit by SUVs and War Wagons!

The main issue here is brainless kids driving very fast cars. If you want to make sure they get slow cars, you go by power to weight ratio! That allows them to drive the tanks and land yachts that are no quicker than the Kei cars, despite their tremendous power, and if they get in an accident, at least you know they will be well protected by a fortress of materials and airbags and crumple zones! Much more than the littke Kei cars. Plus, Insurance Companies don't put giant premiums on granny mobiles and Subarus (NOT the Impreza you dolt!) like they do the smaller cars.

I still maintain that a proper education is as or more important as/then learning to drive in a big golf cart of death that slightly resembles a small car on your own.

^^Most small modern cars will do far better in an accident than any SUV or pickup truck, which have a habbit of folding up on themselves and rolling. They may be tough but they do not deform in a safe manner for the occupants, not to mention they present more of a danger to other road users than a smaller lighter car. Older cars may not be safe but your still less likely to get in an accident in one and when you do you'll do less damage to everything around you. Just getting a bigger heavier car so you can obliterate anything that gets in your way is a rather American approach to the issue.

Also, mass translates into impact force. So basically a crash with 30 in a 2 ton monster is doing more harm than a crash with 50 in a 1 ton car.
Harshly put: if somebody is stupid enough to kill himself in traffic, at least he should do it in a manner where he poses as little danger as possible to others.

Quote from ajp71 :

Real track/off road experiences and necessary skills are completely different to road driving. If you said you'd been clocking up hours in a learner driver simulator that might be slightly more relevant.

FFS geezer, let it go... You are now officially talking shite... Personally I think Dark Elite's concern that certain young drivers should be given some kind of of 'insurance credit' is the sort of product that some companies would consider, but as a general rule it seems too complicated to administer to be considered by most major companies.

Anyway, I would trust my car to anyone with his experience, because the only way to acquire road knowledge is to drive on the road. He is plainly learning car control (if its not all BS, and it doesn't sound like it...) and simply needs to adapt such awareness to the random environment called traffic. Really not that hard.

Any hours clocked in a 'learner driver simulator' would count for nothing with me.

I haven't read through this thread at all but as for the beginning topic, every manual car I've touched has been the same.
It can be in neutral, you just have to put the clutch in, start engine, and if it is in neutral just let the clutch out and you're fine.

Same for every manual car i've been in the following:
Aston Martin Vantage, VW Golf Mk2 (hardtop and convertable), VW Jetta, Acura NSX.. probably some others I can't think of.

I don't know about our Ferrari Daytona though, that was so long ago but I could ask my dad if he had to, I only got to go for a ride in it once or twice, but that was a good 8+ years ago.

Americans are stupid. There's no question about that. They sure like to flatspot their tires (watch past the burnout part, when they go over a jump):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUDG1nW0I6E

Another person, who doesn't seem to care about their front suspension:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlvOtFXeyiM

These people seem to think that a solid white line means "bypass traffic using this lane". It makes sense to use your turn signal when you are breaking the law anyway? lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGnSn31Lqzc

I don't know what to say about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea7YFH9dlRw