The online racing simulator
Method Of Racing Discussion
Options
  1. If 16 Nations. 2 Drivers/cars per Nation, 1 Server.
  2. If 28 Nations. 2 Drivers/Cars Per Nation, 2 Servers, BOTT style qualifying/disivision sorting.
  3. 1 Car Per Nation, Driver Swaps, 2 Hour Race, 1 Server
Please Post your thoughts
I wont lie, i'm new to these things - i mean leagues. Could you maybe explain, what is BOTT style. I'm interested in 2. and 3. option. 3. Is more liked to me.
BOTT style means that there are multiple servers where people qualify and one tracker on a website that records all the times. After quali, the top x drivers go to server 1 and the rest to the other servers according to their times.
I choose option ..... 4.

To be honest, it looks a little awkward to me, having only 2 Drivers representing a nation. I would think 4, or at least 3, drivers in a race per nation would be good. This way, we really could talk about a team event.

Option 3 brings additional trouble, regarding the amount of time, each driver is allowed to do. Having one good driver doing 1 hour 55 and the second driver doing the last 5 minutes wouldn't be nice. Also, 2 hours is no distance worth switching drivers. I'd say, this starts at 3 hours.

Regarding of race distance in general, I would prefer a number of laps high enough to have a race time of 80+ minutes, for some serious racing. (Only the strong shall survive )

Regarding the method of racing, I liked the Nations Cup concept: First having several groups battling it out and the best nations of each group make it into the finals. The number of teams in the finals is kept small enough to do the finals on one server.
Looking on the number of countries listed (35) and removing the countries without team manager aspirants or even drivers (leaves 25), it could be
a) 5 groups with the 2 best nations of each group getting into the finals with team size of 3
b) 3 groups with the 3 best nations of each group getting into the finals with team size of 3
c) 4 groups with the 2 best nations of each group getting into the finals with team size of 4

kr
Lion
<Scratch this, accidentally pressed the button>
i go for BOTT style... more fair to the ppl that already registered for their nations..
Quote from TheBlackLion :I choose option ..... 4.

To be honest, it looks a little awkward to me, having only 2 Drivers representing a nation. I would think 4, or at least 3, drivers in a race per nation would be good. This way, we really could talk about a team event.

It wouldnt be the same 2 drivers, we'd introduce a rule restricting the number of times a driver can take part, ensuring a truer test of a countries drivers as well as allowing many more people to take part than just 2-3.
However, 3-4 people (per country) on a track at a time, half the countries barely have enough to do that if they all turned up for every single round!! The method of racing needs to work for all the countries, about 1/4 of the requests for their country to compete were just 1 person thinking 'wouldnt this be a great idea [click]' and wont realisticly represent their country with their support. We want to get as many people as possible involved rather than it being a tiny group of people, but at the moment theres very few countries who've got the numbers to support this possibility.


Quote from TheBlackLion :
Regarding the method of racing, I liked the Nations Cup concept: First having several groups battling it out and the best nations of each group make it into the finals. The number of teams in the finals is kept small enough to do the finals on one server.
Looking on the number of countries listed (35) and removing the countries without team manager aspirants or even drivers (leaves 25), it could be
a) 5 groups with the 2 best nations of each group getting into the finals with team size of 3
b) 3 groups with the 3 best nations of each group getting into the finals with team size of 3
c) 4 groups with the 2 best nations of each group getting into the finals with team size of 4

kr
Lion

Same thing again, but those 25 countries, 9 of them dont currently have more than 8 drivers, 3-4 of them have less than 5 drivers. The problem isnt coming up with interesting ways of doing things, its finding ways that allows countries to compete without it being just a tiny minority of drivers representing a whole country.
Incidently, method A has a grid of 15 drivers per race?? There would be room for 6 per team, let alone 3.
But each of those means the countries who've had decent signups and shown a decent commitment to taking part, at best a quarter of them might see a race. Some countries have 20+ drivers, some cant manage 8, coming up a method that keeps things interesting for both isnt easy.
Theres also the issue of time it would take to run an event with 3-5 seperate races per round, and then some form of finals.

Im not saying the group style is a bad method, i wouldnt be against it, but Arrow ruled this out from the beginning, he wants everyone up against each other at the same time... or in the BOTT style method, the possibility to be in the same race (depending if you qual in server A or B before the race).

Personally i think this thread is asking for opinions on 3 options, when only 2 of those are physically possible unless we have a sudden influx of signups. Theres only ~17 countries with 10 people signed up, of completely unknown ability (meaning i havent checked who's signed up, im just talking numbers) and unknown commitment. With BOTT they were groups of individuals committed to their team, people they already know and should have decent communication and commitment to. LFSWS is bringing people with no real commitment together, and i dont think we can count on every single signup being a guaranteed driver, with 20+ people even if half decide they're too busy to drive, theres plenty to still race, but with 5 people... its just crazy to build a series around the premise of them, i'd guarantee half of them wont make it through the 5 1/2 month season.
BOTT started with 48 established teams and half a dozen in the waiting list, it finished 8 rounds (over 4 months) in with about 30 teams. Those are groups of people who have commitments to one another, not random people born in the same country at some point in time, possibly never even heard of them. For that reason alone, i think its stupid having a ton of teams entered knowing full well half of them wont be there after a few rounds in, it reflects badly on the series and its crap for those taking part if each round the grid gets smaller and smaller.

It may very well be unfair for the countries with smaller signups, but hopefully with a successful first season the 2nd will open up the possibility for more countries to compete because there is enough interest from them to do so with a decent sized squad of drivers, not just a couple of random individuals. IMO, its about looking at whats in the best interest for the series and the people competing in it, not purely pleasing as many people as possible so they can do the odd round then get bored and leave.
I think it'd be far better for the series to have a trial/practice run, with teams it can rely upon to turn up each round and field a strong line-up, and at the end of it all fix any issues that come up and then launch a much inflated version with better representation from all the countries involved. The nations cup struggled because it tried to find the definitive answer at its first attempt, and IMO thats too big a challenge from an unestablished series. Half the teams/drivers didnt turn up and in the end it almost became a sham, it made a well setup series look poor because IMO it tried to stretch itself too far too soon. Plenty can be taken from that.
After discussing these ideas here in Austria, we see some issues, I want to state here.
  • The "full server idea": We don't believe, it is possible to have decent races on a full server with participants all over the world, because of connection issues. We made the experience, that we cannot even use our servers in Germany for our national events because of packet loss issues - we are talking about a distance of 300km and the connection Austria/Germany is considered to be pretty good.
  • The limitation of participations per driver: Personally, I liked the idea, but I was convinced otherwise. It cannot be enforced, since drivers can share their account or some have two or more accounts. How to avoid, that an nation is reduced to only 2 drivers: Increase the number of drivers per nation participating in one race. This would also reduce the influence of luck - especially method of racing option 3 is very vulnerable to this.
  • Limiting the number of entries: That's a bad idea, especially considering this is the first try for LFSWS. Does someone really expect the dropped nations to be happy about this and come back next year just for the chance to be dropped again? We consider the group method, like the Nations Cup had it, to be the perfect way to handle it. Unmotivated nations won't make it through the group elimination phase and then the finals could be done like option 1 or whatever is possible with a fixed amount of drivers. To keep it interesting, the group elimination could be kept short - maybe 3 races only.
And since I mentioned the Nations Cup: We don't believe, the Nations Cup tried to start too big. It just was a lack in organization, information flow and presentation. Areas, in which the LFSWS also still has some homework to do. But since the organization is on it, we hope for the best.

kr
Lion
NOTE - This post contains the opinion of me. Not the England team, me. I have not even discussed this with other members of the England team, this is not necessarily their opinion. If it is, fine, if it isn't it's also fine as no-one likes yes men.

LFS has pretty good netcode, and other leagues work with having participants all over the shop. Yes, it won't be perfect but a small bit of lag in a good league is better than no lag in a flawed format. Masters of Endurance, OLFSL etc. have a lot of drivers from different countries. Whilst Masters Of Endurance have had a server crash, well, shit happens. A server crash can happen if you (and the server) all are within an area the size of Luxembourg - no disrespect to Luxembourg, I've been there and it's nice.

I don't like the idea of a minimum number of drivers to be used/maximum round per driver. I think it would penalise smaller nations - like Venezuela. As admirable a cause it is to have as many drivers participating, it would punish the smaller nations and could cause problems in mentaining a large talent pool, if a nation has people quitting all over the shop there could be issues. I'm a firm believer in "those who can do, those who can't talk about it/help in other departments". I can't, I'm hopefully going to be helping in other departments. There are plenty of drivers better than me in the England setup, but I still would like to help keep the team running smoothly and winning races in any capacity I can (which excludes driving because I suck badly), wether I am elected manager or not. But I don't want this to be a "Vote Duke" thread, I want people to select who they feel is more committed and capable to run their team (irrespective who it is) rather than the person who spams up the board full of "Vote For Me!!!!!!!!!111111111111!" posts.

I agree with TheBlackLion that a teams limit is a bad idea. A version two with no teams limit (I.E. any nation that can put forward two half-decent can enter) would be nice. Even allow mid-season joiners, as the league increases in profile they would replace the teams that go early.

IMO quali with a central tracker like BOTT - but with the exeption that teams shouldn't be split on to two servers - followed by races would work. The BOTT format works, it isn't broke so it doesn't need fixing - just one or two tweaks to make it a little more suitable for this application.

So far the administration has went very well, and I'd like to thank the guys running this for what they've done as they did a better job of organising something on this scale than I could.
Well, the idea that 32 people from around the world cannot safely race on a track is a bit bizarre, as Dukey says, we've just seen MoE run their 3rd 24hr race, this time with 31 cars. There were disconnections during the race, but less than 2 an hour, which is hard to pin on the fault of netcode or other instabilities involved with international events. For lag... again, just going back to the previous round of MoE, there was a very good scrap between our German driver and another teams American driver, and they went about 3/5th round the 2m50 Aston GP track, about half of that was done side by side through some tricky corners where it isnt all that easy to go side by side, neither touching or at any risk to each other.
http://w14.easy-share.com/1698288821.html
Should check it out, 5 corners, from T1, neither giving an inch and side by side on all but 1 corner. If that can be done midway through a 24hr race with drivers on opposite sides of the world, i dont see why it should be a problem for a 1hr race.

If there is lag, its never because of location, its because of a bad internet connection.

Sounds like you just need a decent European server, theres no way you'd get problems on a solid 10mbit line, if its a shared line then you may have problems, but that would be down to the company your hosted with and what they're offering. Im assuming its a dedi server in a datacenter rather than in someones home, though it'd fit the description being given.


Driver limitations will be introduced, and should be confirmed along with some other details hopefully before the weekend. We'd hope that people arent lame enough to start handing over the reigns to their account just to cheat their way to victory, if people really need to do that to prove how great their country is, they probably should look into a new pasttime. Im sure everyone will respect this rule, and im betting if i all of a sudden managed to put in hauling laptimes similar to what Bawbag can do, you'd probably spot something isnt quite right, we all know i'd kick bawbags ass so something must be wrong So if suddenly im giving the top drivers a decent scrap, its going to stick out like a sore thumb, they'd know it, we'd know it, and it wouldnt fool anyone.
Were not stupid, we all know pretty much what most drivers are capable of doing.


Limiting the countries would be done for 1 reason, lack of sufficient drivers signed up expressing an interest. I personally wouldnt have any problem limiting the series to 16 teams, getting things underway and seeing how things go in order to make sure everything works how we think, there arent problems which will result in negativity towards the integrety of the series, and then once were confident the format works opening the doors to as many teams as possible.
It comes down to what people think is better, waiting until the format of the series is tested, works how we'd like it to work, and has proved itself to be an entertaining series to take part in and in turn the success its had incourages people to sign up and race for their country. Or do we just say sod it, stick 30 teams in a server despite the fact that half of them could fit their whole team into a Mini Cooper and wont last the full season. Ignore the fact that it doesnt exactly look good for the series which allows numericly weak teams take part only for them to leave, and doesnt really fill people with confidence about taking part themselves.
Its all down to how people perceive the series, and the best way to encourage people to take part is by proving the series is a good idea, it works and they'd enjoy taking part. If people are saying load of people left half-way through, people assume its because its a bad series, when the truth could be simply that 'interested' and 'committed' are completely different things, and when the chips are down they chose to walk away.
If there were 30, 40, 100 teams with say 20-30 drivers all saying they wanted to take part, then maybe they'd force our hand, but i still firmly believe the lack of interest from some countries helps us *this time* more than it hinders us.

I dont have the final say on this matter, but i have no problem being honest and saying IMO its in the series' best interest to run the first season with a controlled group, get it right, prove it works, and have that success generate improved awareness and interest in the aims of this series. This was my opinion going back to Dec 31st, possibly earlier, but well before any conclusion could be drawn on how many people were interested.
Its not your average event, and shouldnt be treated as such, were trying to find the country with fastest team of drivers, and it'll take a while before the ideal format to justify that title will be found. I think expecting it to be perfect at the first time of asking is would be a little niave, and i'd hope people would see the bigger picture rather than assuming just because they couldnt be involved in things from the beginning that its a crappy series and not worth participating in once everything is ironed out and working smoothly.
On the lag 'issue' - to back up Paul:

On Sunday we had the 1st round of the LFSBC. We had competitors from USA, Europe and Australia and had not problems (apart from the 2 Northern Ireland competitiors continually timing out)

No lag at all - and a great race.
Yep, the netcode in LFS is awesome. I've participated at a race, where connection issues where that bad, that it took the game 3 laps to figure out, who is in which position. But it managed to keep the race going and that is something, you most likely won't find in any other online race game.
But I'm not sure about the disconnect issue. I was also watching MoE (live for 24 hours ) and the race was o.k., regarding lags. But I also noticed the disconnects during this day and if was visible, that the German teams had an advantage by being close to the server.
Personally, I'd say, the idea behind the feature of being able to have 32 cars on the track is to have 32 car races. And who knows - it might work out. But having a plan B would be good ...

I also wanted to add: If there is really only a choice between the 3 options above, I'd vote for option 2. This way, we can let all interested nations participate. Option 3 would offer (almost) the same, but you know our opinion regarding this option already ...

kr
Lion
Regarding our servers: We tested several servers located in Germany during the past two years. One even being a dedicated host service for LFS. All located in data centers, all perfect for our German neighbors, all going down, when they were filled up with our Austrian bunch.
We know, the problem is the backbone connection between Austria and Germany: It's damn fast (I've seen load testing of German servers done from within Austria - quite commonly done because of the fast connection), but at certain times (for e.g. around x-mas), it has a package loss of 30%!!! No problem for Internet surfing, but crap for playing LFS.

Anyway, we are arranging a deal for having a permanent server within Austria. Located in a data center and as close to the Internet backbone as it can get. It's already set up and so far beating every other server regarding ping and it handled our last big race well.

Just want to say, we have decent servers.
And if the World Series is in need of an additional racing ground, I'm sure, we can arrange something.

kr
Lion
This thread is closed

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