James and Shotty, much as I'd like to continue this here (because you both raised interesting points which require responses) I promised I wouldn't (see above)
As one example, just think about those Egyptians for a minute, James: if the entire Egyptian army was indeed drowned (which means you must accept (a) God indeed "chose" the Hebrews (b) he loathed Egyptians (c) the miracle of the parting of the Red Sea), surely you'd think Pharaoh would wonder where the hell his army, presumably many thousands of people, went? He would have been exposed to all his enemies, both in and out of Egypt, who would have been very grateful to hear he was undefended. I simply fail to see how a vanishing army and an exodus - covert or not - of millions of people failed to attract any attention from anybody who thought it was newsworthy enough to write down, either in Egypt or any of its neighbours. The fact that the only account comes from the "victors" is no solution - I've already registered my distrust of circular logic. "My book says it happened and my book says my book is true, so it must have happened, therefore ..." does not fly. Anyway, since you've confessed to being a fundamentalist I think I'll leave it there and go do some work.
Of course I respect anyone's right to believe anything, but I reserve the right to question & criticise anything which asks me to drop all standards of objectivity and take something on faith. "Because I said so" didn't work when I was a kid, sure as hell won't work now.
Arrgh damn it. I really didn't want to get dragged into this conversation, but, this comment:
Needs answering....
Lets put aside the obvious Adam/Eve/talking serpent/Garden of Eden and The Exodus issues (as mentioned by Hank) to one side and go for some of the other biblical episodes.
Noah and his big boat.
a)It is not and never has been technically possible to build a boat of that size and design from wood, it would simply collapse under it's own weight. The only way it could be built is to have so many bulkheads and support members in it, the internal rooms would be the size of yer average porta-loo.
b) There are currently 30 million species of animal on the planet today (not including all those that have become extinct). Just exactly how long do you think it would take to load 30 million animals onto a boat ? (get your calculator out and do some maths) Then there's the food and crap issues !!.
c) If the whole planet was covered it water, then they'd be at an altitude of at least 28,000 foot. Less oxygen, with all the planets oxygen producing plants now underwater. What did they breath ? then add all the stench from the crap from the 30 million animals cooped up in a boat, phew !!.
d) What about the lack of geological and archaeological evidence that supports a global flood (only 5,000 yrs ago remember). There is plenty of geological evidence that supports a near global ice age. And that was 18,000yrs ago.
e) The only humans to survive the flood was Noah and his family. In genetic terms they'd be equivalent to todays North African/Middle Eastern race. So, where do Eskimos come from, genetically they're different from North Africans. What about the Native North American Indians, South American Indians, Asian Indians, Orientals, Europeans, Samoans, and the real kick in the nuts, where on earth do Native Australian Aboriginals come from ? and how did they get there ? (and with them have a collection of the weirdest creatures on the planet, not found anywhere else)
Jericho....historical and archaeological evidence has proven that Jericho didn't exists at the time the Bible states God and his people blew the walls down. If there was anything in the location at the time it would have been nothing more than a handful of farm houses, nothing at all that warrants a city wall.
The're many many other Biblical accounts from the Torah that i could mention, but the final one for the moment, and this also goes against the claim the Bible doesn't contradict itself. But, How did Moses describe and give a written account of his own death and burial/cremation ?
But there are other so called "miracles" which actually could have happend. I'm thinking about the splitting of the ocean, the rivers turning red, stuff like that. They can be proved to be real.
I'm not sure about the first example, but the split ocean actually were two oceans, and if the currents are right, they are capable of colliding and splitting. But I don't really believe that one.
The other one I'm pretty sure about, around that time there was a lot of iron in the ground.. Rust.. It was able to colour the water to a blood like red.
Mazz, nice one for having a go, but experience in allowing myself to be drawn into such things tells me that none of this has any effect, except to sharpen one's own arguing skills and improve one's typing speed. You're not going to de-convert a true believer, especially a self-described fundamentalist, and you're certainly not going to gain any ground pointing out fabrications, contradictions and holes in the story (even though Biblical gaps far outweigh any of the gaps in scientific theory that are continually pointed out by the faithful as proof that science is wrong - sweet Jeebers, the blinding irony!).
Yeah i know, and that's why i didn't want to get drag into it in the first place, but, if there's one thing the Bible states very clearly, its, ask questions, "test the spirits, because not all spirits are from God" and don't believe everything you're told.
Just wish more Christains would do it, then they'd be able to separate the charlatans from the idiots, fact from fiction, truth from lies. Then they'd be able to understand that what they call Faith and Belief is merely their own personal opinion.
I do think religion can have very healthy benefits to individuals and society as a whole, but, when certain groups of people start to use religion as a means to control, manipulate and deceive both individuals and society it becomes a huge problem, and it's imperative to fully understand the foundation and workings of said religion and if what you're being told by these people lines up with the fundamental truth of life.
Test other religions and claims of knowledge and truth to the enth degree, but if you dare question "Your Lord God and his Holy Book" then yeh be banished to Hell for the rest of eternity"
Mazz, I do accept the point that religion and religiously-inspired groups can be a force for good in the world - what I will not accept, however, is the all-too-common religious assertion that only religious belief can inspire people to be moral, charitable and decent to each other. I'm moral and honest and I care about people because it's right to do so, not because I hope it'll get me into heaven, and I strongly resent anyone assuming that such a thing is impossible without divine inspiration.
As for Flip's comment: that's a major factor in my scepticism (& cynicism): the fact that the creator & controller of the universe would be so offended by my refusal to bow to him that he'd condemn me forever paints him as quite a petty & small personality. I think if I'd created a universe (or the universe) I'm not sure I would care that much whether a tiny life-form on a small planet worshipped me. Why create a limitless universe and then let it stew for 13 billion years before caring if anything that happened to evolve in that time knew who you were?
Erm, just need to check, you did realise my previous post was an "extract" from teh Bibble, not my personal point of view quick edit: Sorry bud, just having a bit of a blonde moment there, of course you knew.
To be honest Hank, a lot, and by that i mean approximately 90% of modern churches are actually based on new age philosophical reasoning and idealism squeezed and twisted so it somehow, at first glance matches the "Official Word of God" (i'm especially thinking of this "name it and claim it" brand of Christianity thats arisen in the last 40yrs or so) and thats not even mentioning the huge Pagan influence of historical Christianity and religeous tradition.
Thing is, when you really get into the nuts and bolts of the Bible, it actually states that these modern interpretations and ideologies trying to pass as Christianity are actually contrary to biblical ethics, and are as the bible would describe it, demonic teachings. Unfortunately, most modern day believers sit on the happy clappy bus of "well it works, so it must be God" These people are being led astray thinking they're following biblical truth and Gods personal plan for their lives, but in reality they're just being led around by their own conscience and their own ethical limits on what's acceptable and whats not.
Take this Westboro Baptist nutters group. They hate "fags" coz the bibble tells them to, and in a sense it does, it's in the book of Leviticus somewhere. But, the same book states thats it's wrong to eat pork and all the unleavened food stuffs, and anything that's not kosher, etc etc. There are also a million and one rules about washing, women wearing hats, women not speaking or teaching etc etc and the list goes on and on and on. So if these Westboro psycho's are following just one of those rules to the letter, then surely they should follow all the rules contained within that book, if they want to be considered true followers of the faith. Which incidentally if they did, then they'd be still following the law and thereby annulling everything their "Lord Jesus" apparently did on the cross.
But as you said previously, try telling them that (and indeed any fundamentalist believer of almost any religion in the world) and they won't listen, regardless of how much evidence, truth and reality you present to them. And its a shame, coz 99.9% of people with faith in a particular religion that i've met (and trust me, i've met thousands of em, used to be one myself) are very very very, very nice people....but, just a little deceived
lol, that turned out to be just a tad longer reply than i'd first intended..
Hank, I said I’d find some hard evidence that the Bible isn’t the only source of information – and whilst I could paste many hundreds of references, I’ll start off with one about the existence and believed divinity of Jesus.
Jesus’ existence and supposed divinity are referenced by several, notable, Roman historians.
There are more, for this and other events in the Bible – but you get the gist.
Of course you would… but if you read up on your history, Pharaoh’s led their armies into battle.
If you say so. I’m not going to go into painstaking detail about each of your points, because no doubt you’ll just fabricate some holes in that, too. The reason I say ‘fabricate’, is down to the fact that non-Christians seem so keen to try and disprove God and the Bible with science… when the very nature of God is that He is supernatural. Being supernatural means that you don’t have to conform to the physical boundaries imposed on humankind.
I suppose you have some structural proof for this? We, as humankind, have built far bigger wooden structures than the supposed dimensions of the ark.
No, there are 30-million species and sub-species on the planet today. The words referring to ‘animal’ in the original transcripts refer to the genus, rather than sub-species themselves. There are far fewer animal genuses (sic?).
Additionally, with matters of food and ‘crap’, as you so eloquently put it… how do ocean liners stay out at sea for weeks on end with hundreds of humans on board? It’s called waste storage, and food stockpiling. The ark was hardly a rushed project.
Presuming God was able to flood the whole planet – wouldn’t you think he’d be able to provide oxygen at 28,000 feet? Granted, that’s going to be one of the unprovable aspects – but as I said above, God is supernatural.
As for the stench of 30m animals… see above.
That’s true – but if you’re going to argue for geological and archaeological evidence (as well as their dating methods), I suggest you go away and re-think your argument. These methods have never been a reliable source of information on a timescale as small as 5,000 years. Even several years ago, a piece of planed wood was discovered and dated by several methods back to several thousand years ago – only to find that it was processed by a company in Manchester… Our current dating methods are right only some of the time.
Once again, I presume you have some proof for this? Also, how would you know what race, for example, Noah’s children-in-law were? And if you’re going to fight on those sorts of grounds – I’m genetically different to a single-celled organism… but apparently I’m related…
[quote] Jericho....historical and archaeological evidence has proven that Jericho didn't exists at the time the Bible states God and his people blew the walls down. If there was anything in the location at the time it would have been nothing more than a handful of farm houses, nothing at all that warrants a city
Blew? Well that’s not in my Bible. Additionally, Jericho is one of the oldest continuously-inhabited cities in the world (according to Charles Gates’ book on ancient cities and others). On top of this, Encyclopaedia Britannica states:
[quote=Encyclopaedia Britannica] Traces have been found of visits of Mesolithic hunters, dated by carbon-14 to about 9000 BC, and of a long period of settlement by their descendants. By about 8000 BC the inhabitants had grown into an organized community capable of building a massive stone wall around the settlement, strengthened at one point at least by a massive stone tower. The size of this settlement justifies the use of the term town and suggests a population of some 2,000–3,000 persons.[/quote]
[quote] But, How did Moses describe and give a written account of his own death and burial/cremation ?[/quote]He didn’t, it was written by the remaining elders of Israel – and it is indeed noted as such in the original manuscripts.
[quote] if there's one thing the Bible states very clearly, its, ask questions, "test the spirits, because not all spirits are from God" and don't believe everything you're told.[/quote]Quite right it says that – but tell me where it says to prove it by science? It’s something that’s said time and time again, but it is true – if you felt what I feel, you’d understand. I don’t expect you to believe me.
[quote] but if you dare question "Your Lord God and his Holy Book" then yeh be banished to Hell for the rest of eternity[/quote]I’m struggling to find that in the Bible… I do, however, find that God says at least once to test HIM (such as in Malachi 3:10).
[quote=Hankstar] As for Flip's comment: that's a major factor in my scepticism (& cynicism): the fact that the creator & controller of the universe would be so offended by my refusal to bow to him that he'd condemn me forever paints him as quite a petty & small personality. I think if I'd created a universe (or the universe) I'm not sure I would care that much whether a tiny life-form on a small planet worshipped me. Why create a limitless universe and then let it stew for 13 billion years before caring if anything that happened to evolve in that time knew who you were?[/quote]
Once again, going back to original texts, you’ll find that Hell is regarded as a chosen destiny, just as Heaven is. Would you expect a just God to overlook sin? Would you expect the police to overlook stealing just because jail didn’t seem ‘fair’ to you? It’s like in any country here on Earth – if you break that country’s laws, you can expect the consequences of breaking them.
[quote=Mazz4200] To be honest Hank, a lot, and by that i mean approximately 90% of modern churches are actually based on new age philosophical reasoning and idealism squeezed and twisted so it somehow, at first glance matches the "Official Word of God" (i'm especially thinking of this "name it and claim it" brand of Christianity thats arisen in the last 40yrs or so) and thats not even mentioning the huge Pagan influence of historical Christianity and religeous tradition.
Thing is, when you really get into the nuts and bolts of the Bible, it actually states that these modern interpretations and ideologies trying to pass as Christianity are actually contrary to biblical ethics, and are as the bible would describe it, demonic teachings. Unfortunately, most modern day believers sit on the happy clappy bus of "well it works, so it must be God" These people are being led astray thinking they're following biblical truth and Gods personal plan for their lives, but in reality they're just being led around by their own conscience and their own ethical limits on what's acceptable and whats not. [/quote]
Couldn’t agree more with that part.
[quote] Take this Westboro Baptist nutters group. They hate "fags" coz the bibble tells them to, and in a sense it does, it's in the book of Leviticus somewhere. But, the same book states thats it's wrong to eat pork and all the unleavened food stuffs, and anything that's not kosher, etc etc. There are also a million and one rules about washing, women wearing hats, women not speaking or teaching etc etc and the list goes on and on and on. So if these Westboro psycho's are following just one of those rules to the letter, then surely they should follow all the rules contained within that book, if they want to be considered true followers of the faith. Which incidentally if they did, then they'd be still following the law and thereby annulling everything their "Lord Jesus" apparently did on the cross.[/quote]Don’t get me started on Westboro Baptist… eugh. As for the above points, it comes down to (as I said to Hank), the context of the Old Testament. Jesus’ death accounted for large parts of the Old Covenant being fulfilled (as, if you recall, the Old Covenant was actually only between Israel and God… not ‘Christians’) – but some of the sentiments displayed were echoed in the New Covenant.
Additionally, there is a difference between parts that could be fulfilled (such as Kosher eating, because Jesus’ sacrifice made everything ‘clean’ – for want of a better way to put it) and parts that are eternal standards. As for homosexuals, the Bible does state that homosexuality is wrong (note, it does not condemn homosexuals for this, but simply treats it as another kind of sin) - but this is defined in the light of how humans were created… and, as such, remains as a standard.
[quote] But as you said previously, try telling them that (and indeed any fundamentalist believer of almost any religion in the world) and they won't listen, regardless of how much evidence, truth and reality you present to them. And its a shame, coz 99.9% of people with faith in a particular religion that i've met (and trust me, i've met thousands of em, used to be one myself) are very very very, very nice people....but, just a little deceived[/quote]Isn’t that what everyone thinks of everyone who doesn’t believe the same thing as they do? But what makes you any more sure you’re right than I am sure I’m right? What makes science the highest authority in the universe? Can you authoritatively claim that anything not provable by science isn’t true? As Tristan said in another thread the other day (or was it even this one, I don’t recall), something proved today will just be disproved a few hundred years later… how can you put your trust in something that changes so much? Why you love someone isn’t provable by science – but you still love, and you know you do.
I would trust a theory tested over many years scientifically than a bunch of stories that falls to bits in terms of 'proof' almost instantly.
However, I'm willing to concede that 'faith' comes into it, and whilst you have faith in the Bible's meaning, I do not, and just think that all religious people (from whatever faith, even though they are all the same, even though most dictate against violence, and even though religion has killed more people than AIDS over the years) are a bit weird, and unable to handle the truth that we are just an animal, and when we die 'it all goes blacker than black'.
I know a lot of religious people. My girlfriend claims to have 'the faith' (although I don't think she does; she was indoctrinated at an early age when in a particularly needy time). And I don't openly mock or ridicule her. I won't force my views on science proof down religious people's throats if they don't try and force their beliefs down mine. I had a wonderful time bringing a... religious preacher (trying to convert people with mumbo-jumbo and leaflets)... close to tears over Christmas. If I want to start believing then I will start with whatever 'flash' or 'vision' occurs. I cannot be tempted to believe something so daft as an all seeing entity that controls everything because some tart on the street suggests I should. I didn't leave a donation.
Anyway... I believe that about the only thing which can convince either group that God is real, or that science is right, is for a technologically vastly superior alien race to come down to our little planet and announce that they created us, or know exactly how we came to be and have the technology to prove it.
Any normal discussion always ends up being a "that's not true because you can't prove or disprove it" game of tug-of-war.
I am actually GLAD that I don't sing hymns in Wellington College. Plus the fact that I never really liked the fact that I had to do them EVERY BLOOMIN' WEDNESDAY AND FRIDAY.
Thing is, I don't actually know what Religion I am. So remember everyone has different faith.
Nah that was an early form of Viagra that did that
My favourite version happened a couple days ago, was playing GRW2 on the X-box 360, and all of a sudden some American came across the mike reciting that part, while simultaneously destroying the opposition. Was as if he had that Vietnam flashback, very worrying
Hrumph, this is exactly the reason i didn't want to get dragged into this thread...i'll never learn.
I''m gonna cut this up into bite sized pieces over the next few hours/days and make separate posts, otherwise this may turn out to be the longest post ever in the whole history of interweb world wide land.
But i really really want to be as brief as possible.
Hmmm don't know why those extracts didn't come up in your quotes ?. But please do yourself a favour and do some research on those particular scholars, especially Josephus. Who incidentally was born after the crucifixion, so by the very nature of erm, nature, couldn't have given an eyewitness account of Jesus and his doings. Oddly enough Nero was born the same year as Josephus, so obviously he wasn't around when Jesus was 'alive' either.
The main issue with this is, the role the vast majority of the Israelites played within Egyptian society. Most were tradesmen, builders, carpenters, merchants, servants, slaves, essentially the working classes. So, when Two and a quarter million of them suddenly pack their bags one day and leave the country, thats gonna make one hell of a dint in the infrastructure of Egyptian society don't you think ?. The worlds population would have been tiny in those days, and the population of Egypt back then is believed to number around 4 million !. So, on one day approximately half the population of a country emigrates, and not one single Egyptian scholor bothers to mention it ? odd don't you think ? And what state would Egypt be in after they all left, with no servants/slaves/tradesmen etc ? and again no one mentions it ? The Egyptians may have had some very odd practices and believed some weird shit, but one thing they were good at was keeping records, and yet, there's nothing of the Exodus.
I'll come back to the other points you raised in a while, don't want to bore the reader to much.
Don't worry about boring the shit out of the reader Mazz, that's why I'm here
Referring a non-believer to scripture is as effective as shooting blanks. I'm not convinced one bit of the Bible's authenticity as the word of the creator of the universe (whose existence, as described in the Bible, I am equally unconvinced of), so using it as an authoritative source is a waste of your & my time. Similarly, concepts such as "heaven", "hell" (which is an abhorrent thing to teach, let alone to children), "sin" and "God's law" are redundant & equally useless as arguing points. You'd have a better chance getting a United supporter to go for City.
Now, I concede your point about Pharaoh leading his soldiers to battle (and therefore not being able to notice their disappearance in the Red Sea, very well done), but you've missed the entire point - and the fact that Pharaoh would've been drowned as well only strengthens it! If the entire Egyptian army disappeared while chasing a million Hebrews that would be one thing, but if the god-king of Egypt also perished I think that the entire nation of Egypt might notice and might think it was an unthinkable catastrophe. I know Egyptians were selective in their reportage & archiving (for example the name of Akhenaten, the radical pharaoh who changed the official religion, moved the capital city and made many other unpopular changes, was removed from many, but obviously not all, official documents & records after his death) but I think the loss of the nation's entire defence force and their semi-divine god-king would have been cause for great lamentation, fear & possibly even massive social upheaval. A defenceless, leaderless nation in the ancient world (and even now) would have been a prime target for invasion by any number of opportunisitc neighbours, many of whom may already have had grievances with powerful & wealthy Egypt. The labour vacuum left by the(supposed) millions of absent Hebrew slaves would not have gone unnoticed either.
Quite simply, the loss of Egypt's entire army, king & a significant portion of its labour force would have been devastating to Egypt socially, economically & would have left the country completely unprotected. Even if not recorded by Egyptians, these events would have definitely been recorded by Egypt's neighbours or by foreigners who may have been in Egypt at the time. The fact that the only place these events occur is in a book already rife with outright fiction can really only lead a logical person to one conclusion: they either didn't happen at all, ever, or the actual events that inspired the story were so mind-numbingly dull & unimportant that the authors felt compelled to embellish their account. A lot.
Now, that's just one point to think on (many others to address but very limited time, unfortunately - and your answers to it thus far have been less than compelling tbh). This whole Egypt issue might seem trifling, but we're talking about one of the foundation stories of the Jewish (and therefore, by extension, Christian & Muslim) religion. If that one point is based on a fallacy, the whole thing's already on shaky ground. Before and after this story are miracles, magic, contradictions (even from the mouth of the Man himself, see here for a full & exhaustive list) and various other absurdities, so I think any rational person could see why any other rational person would have strong doubts about its veracity. If something can't be demonstrated to be true or, at the very least, partly accurate, most rational people are going to have great difficulty abiding by it and basing their lives on it.
If you stop posting whilst I'm asleep tonight I'll be cross. And when I'm cross I tend to resort to petty name calling. And you won't like that. Oh no you won't. You'll be pleading me to let you type.
So do me a favour, and give me something to read at work tomorrow
Hank is far more eloquent than me with this stuff and as a result is a much better read, or do you just like to make fun of me when i use long words that i don't understand ?
Especially when every known fact is rebuffed with the comment "Well God did it, and he's supernatural so can do anything he wants and doesn't have to prove it" Which actually isn't biblically accurate. God has set things up so he's not even allowed to do things outside the laws that he himself set up in the first place, hence sending his only begotten son to the cross to atone for sinners breaking said laws.
