Don't think it takes D/Cs into account though...

http://www.bean0.com/concept/IGTC0Stats.zip

Still uploading, wait 5 mins from post time.

Thanks very much, Bean0.

I'll examine the replay and figure out final results in a few.

Thanks Bean0.

Here are the stats online

http://www.niallmcevoy.com/misc/igtc/igtc_test_result.html

This is official results or preliminar? Because We don't have 30 laps before break connection.

Stats don't account for disconnects. I'm tabulating official results right now.

I've looked through the replay and have some questions about it. First of all I want to apolligy for our second driver coursed some accidents. ( I assume he'll write something about it here).

But the questions I have is regarding the SC which coursed us troubles.
1. When SC goes out it have to be as seldom as possible. When the restart goes the tires are cold and is a risk for accidents. To bring out a SC for a car flipped isn't necessary imo. The driver can just go to spec mode as soon as possible.
2. When sending RC messages it's a big delay if "Yellow flag" or "Blue flag" is shown, somehow the messages seem to come from a cue. It can go several seconds before the message is showing up.
3. When the SC is going out to catch the leader the gap between the slower cars can go from 2s to one lap if a car just been lapped and the one he have a fight with is not when the SC is deployed. I guess you have discussed this before but I bring it up again if so ...

Based on the above I want to suggest the following:
1. No SC when a car get flipped, just let the driver go to spectator mode.
2. Send all admin messages via normal chats.
3. Let all lapped car pass the SC and gain a lap. They are going to the end of the line and will not interfere with the racers on the lead lap.

The other strange things that happened during the SC period, passing cars, drivers out in the grass and so on, I'm sure you will look into and I saw some good suggestions from you.

Quote from Cawwa :

3. Let all lapped car pass the SC and gain a lap. They are going to the end of the line and will not interfere with the racers on the lead lap.

Do you mean by that, that even if the SC has catched leader up, the lapped cars can still drive pass the SC and others and gain the lap back if they will make it ?

If yes, then i agreed with that proposal.

This was actually the thing that confused me in the race, in F1 you can pass the whole "train" of cars, but to be sure i did not pass them and stayed in the line. And yes, i have read the rules , the SC part several times and some things are still confusing...
I think you should change the rules and really make allow to pass SC if you are lapped.

Besides, it will be better for all. If the lapped car can't go pass and gain the lap back. There is big chance that after green flag he will cause an accident, because he will have blue flag. It would be more safe if lapped cars could gain lap back, get in to the end of the line and continue safely race after green flag.
That was the actual reason of crappy performance of c4R cause we were racing all the time under blue flag... we had some technical problems with 2.nd driver. So i had to do 3 PIT-s before i could give the car to him, with this time i lost 2 laps and after that it was very bad to race. 80% of the race was blue flag for us...




Kirill.D

Yes that was what I ment.
The restarts was a another word for caos. The lapped cars got Blue Flag during the first two laps all the time, they never know who they should let by and who they where fighting about positions with.

Quote from Cawwa :

....
Based on the above I want to suggest the following:
1. No SC when a car get flipped, just let the driver go to spectator mode.
2. Send all admin messages via normal chats.
3. Let all lapped car pass the SC and gain a lap. They are going to the end of the line and will not interfere with the racers on the lead lap.

The other strange things that happened during the SC period, passing cars, drivers out in the grass and so on, I'm sure you will look into and I saw some good suggestions from you.

1. The SC is to simulate real life conditions. In real life an SC would be called for this incident. Flipping rarely occurs, but Blackwood seems to attract it more than any other circuit. I suggest that FXR+XRR drivers take it a bit easier through the chicane to prevent this.

2. The messages are RCM + Admin text messages, however admin messages do not show in the replays.

3. The problem here is that not everyone will be in position even if you let all lapped cars through. For example the car behind the leader is 7 laps down but the car behind this is only 2 laps down. They may or may not work out that the 7 laps down car has to let the car behind it through as they regain the lap on the leaders. Hence there will still be lapped cars mixed in between other peoples races, only this time it would be further down the grid and not with the leaders. Sorting this out would take a lot longer than 2 laps. It would be handing a whole lap to the other teams which is not exactly a fair proposition if you have worked your right leg off for an hour just to have that lap given back to everyone else (e.g. ConeDodgers). My suggestion here is that everyone watches out for each other on restarts and that they are patient and weary of the lapped cars and COLD TYRES. R3's do not have the grip that R2's had in patch X etc.

For the remainder of the season, weaving during an SC period will be banned. It caused more incident than it did help. The reason people weave in real life is to get rid of "marbles" on their tyres and other debris. LFS doesn't simulate this and the gain in heat anyway is minimal.

Another option would be to have all lapped cars drop to the back of the queue (in order) during the SC, but I think this would be too messy to pull off effectively (without adding a lot more laps to the SC periods).

As Benji said, the number of SC periods in this weekend's race was a fluke. I think the highest number we had last season (except for the semi-disaster at SO4) was three, and that was in four-hour races. The easiest way to prevent SC periods is for drivers to keep all four wheels on the ground. The only one I saw in watching the replay that wasn't directly the driver's fault was the Cyber flip, which was a combination of two unrelated incidents (i.e., Cyber spun on his own exiting the backstretch, was recovering and another car spun and hit him, catapulting him into the fence and onto his roof).

The fact is that a majority of the drivers in the test race were not driving as if it were an endurance race. Over-aggressiveness and silly/dangerous moves do not win endurance races. Caution and strategy do.

SC periods are a fundamental part of the design of this league. Obviously, we're doing our best to improve our implementation of them all the time, but this requires some cooperation from the drivers and a good deal of clean driving.

I never suggested to order the lapped cars among them, for a while I thought of it but put it away for the same reasons you gave, it takes to long time and would be hard to understand.
But to let every lapped car by the leader and SC would bring them behind the field and the fight for the lead among the head competitors could go on without disturbance from lapped cars.
The lapped cars would at least have less Blue flags to take care of.

Just let the lapped cars by in the order they are, shouldn't be a problem at all.

Quote from Cawwa :

I never suggested to order the lapped cars among them, for a while I thought of it but put it away for the same reasons you gave, it takes to long time and would be hard to understand.
But to let every lapped car by the leader and SC would bring them behind the field and the fight for the lead among the head competitors could go on without disturbance from lapped cars.
The lapped cars would at least have less Blue flags to take care of.

Just let the lapped cars by in the order they are, shouldn't be a problem at all.

It would also gift the lapped cars with an entire lap back, which is sort of a huge insult for the faster teams who put in a lot of hard work to get ahead of them. I'm sorry, but this won't be happening.

edit: I'd love to hear other suggestions to address this issue, however.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

It would also gift the lapped cars with an entire lap back, which is sort of a huge insult for the faster teams who put in a lot of hard work to get ahead of them. I'm sorry, but this won't be happening.

Additionally, the blue flagged cars would probably want to do pitstops as well under SC making this idea even more complicated.

I could be totally wrong, but seem to recall a system being used in US Oval racing (maybe NASCAR) where the drivers on the lead lap would form one queue and those not on the lead lap would form another, in on-track order, alongside. The lead lap queue then moves ahead of the lap down queue in a controlled manner.

Obviously having 2 queues of cars isn't a problem on an oval, could be on a tighter track though.

Quote from Bean0 :

I could be totally wrong, but seem to recall a system being used in US Oval racing (maybe NASCAR) where the drivers on the lead lap would form one queue and those not on the lead lap would form another, in on-track order, alongside. The lead lap queue then moves ahead of the lap down queue in a controlled manner.

Obviously having 2 queues of cars isn't a problem on an oval, could be on a tighter track though.

Yeah, it's a good system for NASCAR but I don't think it'd work so well for road course racing. The lapped cars would just blend in in the first corner, as if they'd all been in one line to begin with. Net gain would be very little for the work/confusion it would require, I think.

Its used in F1 also if i dont mistake.

But i understand organizers, so i understand why they wont accept it and its ok , means that we have to practice more ^^

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

It would also gift the lapped cars with an entire lap back, which is sort of a huge insult for the faster teams who put in a lot of hard work to get ahead of them. I'm sorry, but this won't be happening.

edit: I'd love to hear other suggestions to address this issue, however.

Hard to see it would be an insult to any driver, the car that get his lap back is still in the end of pack when the restart goes anyway. But now he can continue to fight with the car who was 2 sec infront of him who never was passed by the leading car.

The main reason for this suggestion is to make it easier for the lapped cars getting fewer Blue Flags and for the cars on the leading lap to continue their fights without interfering.

Quote from Cawwa :

Hard to see it would be an insult to any driver, the car that get his lap back is still in the end of pack when the restart goes anyway. But now he can continue to fight with the car who was 2 sec infront of him who never was passed by the leading car.

The main reason for this suggestion is to make it easier for the lapped cars getting fewer Blue Flags and for the cars on the leading lap to continue their fights without interfering.

Yeah, I understand and applaud that impulse. It would certainly be less messy if there weren't lapped cars in amongst the leaders.

However, I can't see how you fail to understand why the leading cars would be frustrated at lapped cars getting their laps back for free. Being at the tail end of the line = maybe 20 seconds behind the leader. Being a lap down, depending on track = anywhere from 1:10 to 3:00 behind. Not to mention that these lapped cars already get a significant amount of time back just because of the bunching up the SC causes.

I can definitely see both sides to the argument. Having the lapped cars at the back of the pack would certainly cause less problems on the restart, but if i'd spent 40 laps driving fast enough to lap someone i would be a bit peeved that due to a SC they were suddenly only 10 secs behind me again.

Still, the best solution is to drive with more care and not cause the SC periods at all


EDIT..beaten by DWB

Quote from Dru :

BTW, dues to disconnections - is oe was there a traker running last night?

I've had a talk with WolleT (tracker guy) regarding this issue, and it appears unfortunately that he is no longer accepting new tracker work, and is in fact planning to shut down following the end of the MoE season.

I've asked him what it takes to run the tracker, and whether he'd be interested in licensing out the software. He said he'd get back to me. So we'll have to make do for now, unless we have any genius coders amongst us.

I find it strange that you didn't even care to look at the car who was 1 sec ahead of the leading car who now gain 59 - 2 min 59 sec depending on the track and furthermore gain as much of the lapped car who chased him but cought by the leading car.

If you guys don't want it - no big deal.

Quote from Cawwa :

I find it strange that you didn't even care to look at the car who was 1 sec ahead of the leading car who now gain 59 - 2 min 59 sec depending on the track and furthermore gain as much of the lapped car who chased him but cought by the leading car.

There has to be a dividing line somewhere, and the leader makes for a particularly convenient (and traditional) one. Sorry that you disagree, but for me the possibility of a team getting up to 5.5 minutes back in one fell swoop is a bit too much. As I've said, this is a decision that isn't likely to change. Thanks for respecting it.

I think that some of you don't realize how difficult it is to marshal or Admin one of these races. We simply do not have the tools to quickly review protests or even be able to catch things like overtaking under yellow. We do our best and keep our eyes on things as best we can. We will catch you eventually, so don't try it. But don't be surprised if we don't initially see it.

The Safety Car needs to deploy to the track when it can and when it is most practical to catch the leader. If that means that the SC pulls out in front of you and you are not the leader, you have to know the rules and you must pass the safety car. We might be able to work a rule for the safety car by using the turn signals to indicate that it is OK for you to pass, but you have to know your position on the track and the rules. You should know it is OK to safely overtake the SC on your own.

We are not on a power trip by the way. The rules were setup for this league to simulate live racing as best as we can. You all signed up for it hopefully with full knowledge of the rules. We have to enforce the rules as they are written for it to be fair for everybody. I think it has been going quite well.

The SC periods add another dimension to the racing that can help you or hurt you depending on how you deal with it or what is currently happening. Yes, you have to deal with lapped traffic and vice-verse. That is part of the challenge.

During the 4 hour races I hope that everyone will be a bit more calm and keep the greasy side down. Fewer safety car periods would be good.

Just like Hallen said, as long as the safety car enters the track in front of the leader, there shouldn´t be many problems. If you´re not the leader and you are the car behind the safety car, just overtake it and keep going. Besides that, with LFS Remote it´s easy to have someone from your team on Teamspeak (or any similar software) giving you information about the position of the safety car and the cars near you, just like your pit crew would do in real life racing. So, as long as we all drive clean and respect the rules, I guess the problems that happened in the test race, won´t happen again.

Just understand this right. I have nothing to against bringing out the safety car, that is not the issue here. To me it's just another way of making tactical moves.
The question is how you bring some order in the restarts again, to have the cars on the leading lap among themselves and the rest who have been lapped for themselves on the best way.
In Nascar they want close fights so they bring the lapped cars in the inner line and the cars on the leading lap at the outer line, but that's not a good way to solve it for us in road courses.

If you can't solve it, ok ... the lapped drivers just have to live with it and sometimes make some bad decisions of not letting a lead car by the first laps becourse he thought it was fight about positions.