I agree there. If fx. Austrailia got 2 drivers unable to race. They only have one. Seems kinda unfair. Imo. 
When Slovenia and others got 10+. As Bawbag said.
When Slovenia and others got 10+. As Bawbag said.
If it was purely numbers, then it'd have a very American style meaning to 'World Series', as for each non-European entry theres a European one that has more signups to take its place.
Whats the point of doing it if its just Europe? We need to judge whether its feasable to have 32 people on a server when they're guaranteed to be spread all over the world, its not like MoE or any other event where 95% of the people are from the same continent, The N/S American countries are included along with Australia despite lower signups because we need this data, so exceptions can be made at this stage.
I guess it'd be better to kick them out, have it as only EU teams, have a great first season and then next time round have 20+ Aussie and likewise for the America's, and then have the server completely unraceable and listern to people bitch about why things like this arent tested first? Your damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Whats the point of doing it if its just Europe? We need to judge whether its feasable to have 32 people on a server when they're guaranteed to be spread all over the world, its not like MoE or any other event where 95% of the people are from the same continent, The N/S American countries are included along with Australia despite lower signups because we need this data, so exceptions can be made at this stage.
I guess it'd be better to kick them out, have it as only EU teams, have a great first season and then next time round have 20+ Aussie and likewise for the America's, and then have the server completely unraceable and listern to people bitch about why things like this arent tested first? Your damned if you do, damned if you dont.
You wouldn't think discarding countries like Slovakia or Sweden which both entered more than ten people for a three- and a six-man team is going to upset people?
If you wanted to start small, why the hell didn't you? Starting big, getting cold feet and punting a good portion of people for the sake of TESTING is no better than having a league that had problems but at least tried! I've been an avid supporter of this project, but the way this was handled is very disappointing... Not because I might have to wait, but for how differently you acted to what you announced... This way, you lost a lot of trust, and I think not only from me...
We want this to be a World Series not European series.
We announced we will be choosing 28 or 16 Nations and we have done that.
Yes, I can read, thank you... However, how would you rate the commitment of big countries which have 8150 or 21565 racers respectively, but aren't able to enter 5 or just above 5 participants? I think piss-poor is the term... So where is this cut for not-so-committed teams, which you even quoted?
Just as a comparison: Sweden got 4391 racers and entered 11 drivers, Austria entered 9 of its 1579 racers, and the Slovak Republic got a massive team of 19 drivers out of 968! If that isn't a massive slap in the face, I don't know what is...
This doesn't deserve the title world series if willing countries are excluded for no good reason, at least not yet...
(Bawbag)
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by PaulC2K
Why can't we sign on new drivers mid-season? It is completely closed out now for all nations?
If we wanted the easy option and put little thought into our decisions, we'd have stuck everyone in there, watched half the teams leave or not show up, and called it Nations Cup #2, because thats what happened with that series, people said one thing, did another. The issue with Australia and a couple of the N/S American teams isnt ideal, but they are important to the running of the series, and because we still have plenty of time until the first race starts they can still look for additional drivers to add to the lineup. Before the signup had begun, it was fairly obvious there were 4 non-EU countries which would be needed, we wanted 5/6 or more non-EU teams, and depending on European signups the rest of the series setup would be decided, whether its 16 or 28-32 split over 2 servers.
We've had about 18 countries which had double figures for signups, plus the 3 non-EU countries, still falls well short. If you count all the counties with at least 1 signup, thats 26 in total.
There simply isnt enough teams to run 2 servers, yet we were 5 over fitting into 16 teams. There were already more than enough EU teams, so we picked those we felt were the strongest, and kept the 3 non-EU countries. Keeping everything in 1 server is far easier to manage too, and despite the fact that it meant we'd have to axe teams which could have taken part, there wasnt enough room for the only reasonable method we could use.
Running qualifying rounds wouldnt solve matters, it might have shut a few moaners up because they couldnt complain if they'd been kicked out, but it couldnt be ensured it'd be fair and accurate just as us axing those teams we felt were weaker can ensure it. The difference is, we dont have to organise preliminary rounds, allow time to practice, run them 3 weekends back to back disregarding any other events on those dates, and then further delayed the start of the series proper once those successful teams have been decided.
FACT: We never once suggested there would be more teams than have been selected, never gave any guarantees that signing up meant you'd be involved, or made any other similar assurances.
The deadline for the selected countries is closed, however sign-ups are NOT closed, and wont be until the penultimate round of the series is over, so whether a team such as Australia have 1 or 100 people signed up, they have at least 6 weeks to find enough drivers for round 1 and almost 6 months till round 7, however their involvement FAR outweighs that of yet another European country, were fully aware that a 32 slot server can hold 32 Europeans, however we need to spread the load over a far wider area, and doing that with 14 EU teams and 2 'others' isnt going to cut it, and insisting that non-EU countries should be dropped for more EU teams makes absolutely no sense at this stage in the series lifespan. A World Series with only European teams makes no sense, and could ultimately create problems in later series if their involvement makes things unstable. We're confident it wont, but it may require swapping and changing server hosting location till we find something that works for everyone, doing this with 20-30 countries mid-series would be considerably worse for the series than having to select the best 10 EU teams, and 6 non-EU teams, and pass on those not selected.
"Yes, I can read, thank you."
Really? We've stated perfectly clear the reasons we've selected those countries: signups, team strength, geographical diversity. Its there in black and white (light blue), what more do you want?? You've been given the reasons, and your insults wont change those, and certainly wont help the chances of any sensible suggestions being listerned to if yourself and others continue whining we'll just close the thread down and leave it there. If you geniunely have worthwhile suggestions, make them, otherwise complaining isnt going to change anything.
If anyone has questions then they can be asked, if you have a helpful suggestions then we'll listern to them, but if people just want to complain and not respect our decisions, then there posts will be considered unhelpful and intentionally disrumptive, and their posts will be removed and the thread possibly locked.
The reasons for these actions have been given, as they have been throughout the build-up to the season, we've never said one thing and done exactly the opposite, but if we did, there would be geniune reason for it, not for funsies.
Tweak:
No, certainly not, its still very much open for drivers to continue signing up for the countries invited to take part, the closing date for drivers signing up is effectively August (9th iirc), theres ~6 weeks for the first round, 20 something weeks till the last. The only deadline was for signups to come to a conclusion which countries we would go with, it was clear signups werent coming in that significantly which would change things in any helpful manner, so we felt it best to made a decision with reasonable notice, to consider what we'd do, and which countries would take part. Currently there isnt any signup deadline, and there probably wont be, although its possible we'll introduce a restriction saying you cant race for the first 7 days from signup (competitively in LFSWS), this is just to ensure no last minute signups and people who've been practicing all week dont get 'chubbed' by someone jumping in at the last minute. Its not a confirmed rule, just something were discussing which we think is beneficial. It may not get implemented, as this is partly something the countries manager should be looking out for, if the involvement of new drivers annoys those who've been there a while practicing and arent getting a place because of 'queue jumpers' it could cause problems later down the line.
Huh?
Everywhere I have been reading it has been February 9th, not August.
Honestly I think a large part of the problem here is ineffective advertising. I know there are plenty of American drivers who would compete, but I don't think many know it's even going on. Has it even been announced outside this forum?
Several major LFS nations (Spain, Brazil being two that spring to mind) have very insular communities (either due to location or language barriers) and probably have even less exposure to this forum than others.
Several major LFS nations (Spain, Brazil being two that spring to mind) have very insular communities (either due to location or language barriers) and probably have even less exposure to this forum than others.
Thats just the deadline we were using for assessing each countries lineup, we were just giving advanced notice that a decision would be made then (on those results at least) to try and encourage a few more people to sign up to help their countries chances of being invited.
Each country still involved can continue recruiting drivers to take part, theres definately not a complete sign-up deadline, at least till towards the end of the season.
Each country still involved can continue recruiting drivers to take part, theres definately not a complete sign-up deadline, at least till towards the end of the season.
True, although Brazils signup numbers arent a problem, and Spain (amongst others) signed their country up to take part (twice, both from the same community) and yet never came back to sign themself up and i'd guess didnt bother informing their community either.
Regarding the fact, that we had quite a good number of sign-ups (10) with the offer to arrange for more, if needed for participation, an agreed team manager candidate, have very good skills and racing experience, showed active interest in the series by following and participating in the discussion, even offering our help and infrastructure for the organization, and the fact, that our country is located on this world, I cannot really comprehend the decision of excluding us from this event.
Also it was also effort to get the attention and commitment of the drivers, designing a skin, arranging for training infrastructure and, in case it might be necessary, even making plans to adjust the time table of our currently running Austrian championship, to be able to participate in the world series. And it is a blame, to see this effort go to waste.
I also checked already with some of the drivers and there is no motivation to prepare for the series, if we are on the waiting list and it could be all for nothing. Therefore you can remove us from the reserve list.
Just to make it clear: We don't want to force ourselves onto the list of the 16 remaining nations. We want to apply for a mode, that allows all the signed-up nations to participate.
By the way: If you want to have a representative test as you talk about you have to arrange for a team from Africa. And I'm also not sure about Asia. Have you checked with the Russians, if they are from the European part or the Asian part? I guess you can skip Antarctica, because LFS won't work really well with satellite connections.
Maybe we should organize the LFSWSRSFNNATPATLFSWS (LFS world series replacement series for the nations not allowed to participate at the LFS world series). So at least our effort and the effort of all other nations not selected wouldn't be for nothing.
Also it was also effort to get the attention and commitment of the drivers, designing a skin, arranging for training infrastructure and, in case it might be necessary, even making plans to adjust the time table of our currently running Austrian championship, to be able to participate in the world series. And it is a blame, to see this effort go to waste.
I also checked already with some of the drivers and there is no motivation to prepare for the series, if we are on the waiting list and it could be all for nothing. Therefore you can remove us from the reserve list.
Just to make it clear: We don't want to force ourselves onto the list of the 16 remaining nations. We want to apply for a mode, that allows all the signed-up nations to participate.
By the way: If you want to have a representative test as you talk about you have to arrange for a team from Africa. And I'm also not sure about Asia. Have you checked with the Russians, if they are from the European part or the Asian part? I guess you can skip Antarctica, because LFS won't work really well with satellite connections.
Maybe we should organize the LFSWSRSFNNATPATLFSWS (LFS world series replacement series for the nations not allowed to participate at the LFS world series). So at least our effort and the effort of all other nations not selected wouldn't be for nothing.
I just think you could definitely sign on more countries, and scrap this 2 driver per country deal. I was NOT expecting to try and get two drivers to compete in one race. I thought this was all about singularity.
With a 2 driver combination, it just makes it 10 times harder for nations to compete with points, and makes it far more imbalanced in my opinion. There are SO MANY disadvantages to make this fair when you have 2 drivers, I don't know what the hell you were thinking. To me, it looks like you decided to just exlude a lot of other nations just so you could get 16 countries to make the 2 driver idea work? Sure seems like it.
The league still appears to be very much in conception... hell I don't even know how you managed to get a subforum on here when going by Victor's requirements! And don't blame countries for not spreading the word, this league is very internal, and practically restricted to just this little forum in here, not many people know about it. Thankfully, because you moved the first race to the 22nd, perhaps we really do have more time to make a higher country count and start advertising more. Still plenty of time now with new dates.
Stuff the 2 driver idea, and get more countries, please!
With a 2 driver combination, it just makes it 10 times harder for nations to compete with points, and makes it far more imbalanced in my opinion. There are SO MANY disadvantages to make this fair when you have 2 drivers, I don't know what the hell you were thinking. To me, it looks like you decided to just exlude a lot of other nations just so you could get 16 countries to make the 2 driver idea work? Sure seems like it.
The league still appears to be very much in conception... hell I don't even know how you managed to get a subforum on here when going by Victor's requirements! And don't blame countries for not spreading the word, this league is very internal, and practically restricted to just this little forum in here, not many people know about it. Thankfully, because you moved the first race to the 22nd, perhaps we really do have more time to make a higher country count and start advertising more. Still plenty of time now with new dates.
Stuff the 2 driver idea, and get more countries, please!
Why not make it 3 drivers per team, include the extra countrys and fill up two servers. 
(TheBlackLion)
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by PaulC2K
That idea has a CONSIDERABLY higher likelyhood of being used than just 1 driver per country, i was thinking about it last night, because it would create 2 full servers with 20 teams, maybe 21 depending how it was split, but it does become slightly more messy at this point as you go back to having multiple servers for the race and qualifying, rather than everyone being on the track together and racing for the same set of places/points.
It also means one server could be full of EU drivers one week, the next it could be 50/50 EU/non-EU and could be problematic with packet loss/latency where at least cramming everyone into 1 server helped confirm if this could ever create a problem for the people taking part.
and we won Nations cup with Australia... i know it wasnt good organised but still...
Heh, really good point there, Tweak. Why on Earth would a "World Series" be all about singularity? It's a competition based on finding the best Nation, not the best driver; it's about working in unison with your compatriots, not about winning by yourself, for yourself.
Contrary to what you may believe, we've had a lot of internal discussion about all of the mentioned rules, and you've not exactly presented any concise arguments as to why anything should be changed.
I do sympathise with those teams which haven't made the cut, and maybe Bawbag's idea of 3 drivers per team, split over two servers, is a good one. I think the plan is to keep things managable for the first season though, and then, if it's a success, it can probably be expanded to include more countries in the future.
I raced with Spain a little bit.. like 3 months... and i told them to signup... and they did.. like 3 mins after i told them, and i think that that is no the problem
Well I thought this was going to be like A1GP format... not just another resurrection of BOTT only using so-called "compatriots".
Singularity, think about what I mean. Having 2 people represent ONE country (Not "driver", take off your stupidface) in a race is not exactly fitting that criteria.
I really don't think you understand my arguments at all, or have really put the thought through as to why using 2 or more drivers per country is a bad idea when looking at scoring points and fairness of racing. What ever happened to the discussion about one fast driver of a nation driving for the entire season? Do you have a rule for it? What prevents one nation from just sitting back and relaxing while one fast driver takes in all the points... or hell, even two fast drivers to increase the odds of scoring higher points? It is absolutely absurd to think that this will be fair. I guarantee you that one, if not, two nations will just have an incredible lead in points.
What was I hoping to see? I was hoping to see ONE driver participate for a nation on a given weekend, and a requirement that the nation switch up a new driver for the following race, and so on. This would require proper planning and strategy on the part of one nation, and not just a parade of good drivers as with your '2 driver' idea. Sure you will argue with a very typical quote "OH, what if the drivers of that nation are all fast, so?"... that's not my point. I was expecting to see nations participate with at least 6 or 8 different drivers, nearly one for each race... to mix things up a little -- actually A LOT. I definitely DID NOT want to see one driver take all the glory for a particular nation, where is the fun and diversity in that?
As for recruiting more nations, again I still believe (and it is quite obvious) that you figured some nations did not have enough sign-ups, therefore you eliminated them and saw that it could fit a two-driver-team on the grid, tada!, 32 drivers!!!!!
Real genius. I will STILL argue that you need to get more publicity, and get more nations to participate before you go off and make that decision. And before you go saying I do not have enough "concise arguments" and try to belittle my idea of good publicity, don't be a pretender and think you have spread the word about this league, you haven't.... and there are a lot of things you can do to have more participants.I say again, the league is still very much a concept, and for a month and a half to run down on the calendar here, and then to just throw away all those sign-ups and potential nations really shows the dedication towards having a "world" series. Because I think it is quite clear that I want to see just as many possible nations on the grid as we can so you can live up to your name. Else, please just call it LFS World Series of Ambiguous Duos.
Tweak, shut up and spend more than 2 seconds looking into the series, THEN comment!
Dont make assumptions, dont guess, dont whine about something if you dont even know anything but what little you've bothered to read, dont tell us we havent considered X, Y & Z just because you dont know we have (or bothered to read the announcements!)
If you cant find answers to questions you have, ask us, dont just go making assumptions because you dont know the answers and/or cant be arsed looking for them!
I've said it once before, if people want to moan or cant be bothered saying something constructive for the good of the series, then their posts will be deleted and the thread may end up getting locked and/or deleted, the same goes for people commenting on things they cant even be arsed to check their facts on!
Dont make assumptions, dont guess, dont whine about something if you dont even know anything but what little you've bothered to read, dont tell us we havent considered X, Y & Z just because you dont know we have (or bothered to read the announcements!)
If you cant find answers to questions you have, ask us, dont just go making assumptions because you dont know the answers and/or cant be arsed looking for them!
I've said it once before, if people want to moan or cant be bothered saying something constructive for the good of the series, then their posts will be deleted and the thread may end up getting locked and/or deleted, the same goes for people commenting on things they cant even be arsed to check their facts on!
You're the only one that is "arsed" to ANY criticism anyways, figures :rolleyes: 
What I say could be good for the series, don't tell me to shut up. My comments are just as equal to anyone else's ideas, no matter how similar or dissimilar they may be.
What I say could be good for the series, don't tell me to shut up. My comments are just as equal to anyone else's ideas, no matter how similar or dissimilar they may be.
What you say ignores any of the rules that are in place making 75% of the tripe you just posted irrelevent.
Yes, what you say COULD be good for the series, spend 2 minutes checking some of the rules or at least ASK for them, and maybe what you say would mean something instead of ranting about something you havent even got your facts straight on. If you want to be helpful, at least get your facts straight, dont assume and tell us were doing it all wrong.
Yes, what you say COULD be good for the series, spend 2 minutes checking some of the rules or at least ASK for them, and maybe what you say would mean something instead of ranting about something you havent even got your facts straight on. If you want to be helpful, at least get your facts straight, dont assume and tell us were doing it all wrong.
Anyone seen my last post? :eye-poppi Seems it got lost somewhere. It should be here ... http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=706953#post706953
No, serious: censoring is as low as it can get. Guess you found no way to discredit me, since I was constructive and even offered support to the organization. And don't give me crap like "The post was off topic", because we have enough here, that wasn't deleted (e.g. arrows "hahaha" or Celtics "Sheep" - no offense).
Looks to me, that you got scared, that this Austrian, who seems to know, what he is talking about, will shake a full blown Nations Cup out of his sleeve, ending this circus of yours. Tell you what: we planned to do something on the European level starting this autumn, but we don't mind extending it to worldwide.
What's there in black and white is not worth much, since you edit your posts as you like, even in the discussion forum. And regarding your FACT: As a fact I still remember 3 options to choose from, where 2 of them clearly suggested, there would be more than 16 teams. (Yes, quickly - edit these posts). And we also still have the headline "LFS World series will consist of the best drivers from all over the globe racing for their country in a variety of cars and track environments in order to find LFS's fastest Nation." which I'd call a promise regarding the unlimited participation for nations and drivers. But if that's not enough, how about "This is where all Sweden players can sign up to be apart of Swedens world series team." I thought, the "apart" was a typo, but it seems not, since you told the drivers, that they can participate as the Swedish team just to dismantle the team afterwards. Or do I have to wonder, since the drivers signed-up are apart the Swedish team, where the Swedish team is? Hint: Works also for the other Nations, you dropped.
And if you say you want to have as many drivers of a nation participate as possible, and then turn down 40+/50+ signed-up drivers, or when you turn down my argument, that a server, full with people from all over the world, will have connection problems, as nonsense bringing MoE as proof just to tell us later, that you need to do a test season with participants from all over the world, to judge, if a full server is feasible, since this series is not like MoE, with 95% participants from Europe, then I have to ask you: Why would you expect me to put any value in what you write?
Anyway: We plan to do a fun race in parallel to the first race of the world series for us and all other nations not participating in the world series. We will contact you (all signed-up drivers of non-participating nations), when the time has come - if you don't mind.
kr
Lion
No, serious: censoring is as low as it can get. Guess you found no way to discredit me, since I was constructive and even offered support to the organization. And don't give me crap like "The post was off topic", because we have enough here, that wasn't deleted (e.g. arrows "hahaha" or Celtics "Sheep" - no offense).
Looks to me, that you got scared, that this Austrian, who seems to know, what he is talking about, will shake a full blown Nations Cup out of his sleeve, ending this circus of yours. Tell you what: we planned to do something on the European level starting this autumn, but we don't mind extending it to worldwide.
What's there in black and white is not worth much, since you edit your posts as you like, even in the discussion forum. And regarding your FACT: As a fact I still remember 3 options to choose from, where 2 of them clearly suggested, there would be more than 16 teams. (Yes, quickly - edit these posts). And we also still have the headline "LFS World series will consist of the best drivers from all over the globe racing for their country in a variety of cars and track environments in order to find LFS's fastest Nation." which I'd call a promise regarding the unlimited participation for nations and drivers. But if that's not enough, how about "This is where all Sweden players can sign up to be apart of Swedens world series team." I thought, the "apart" was a typo, but it seems not, since you told the drivers, that they can participate as the Swedish team just to dismantle the team afterwards. Or do I have to wonder, since the drivers signed-up are apart the Swedish team, where the Swedish team is? Hint: Works also for the other Nations, you dropped.
And if you say you want to have as many drivers of a nation participate as possible, and then turn down 40+/50+ signed-up drivers, or when you turn down my argument, that a server, full with people from all over the world, will have connection problems, as nonsense bringing MoE as proof just to tell us later, that you need to do a test season with participants from all over the world, to judge, if a full server is feasible, since this series is not like MoE, with 95% participants from Europe, then I have to ask you: Why would you expect me to put any value in what you write?
Anyway: We plan to do a fun race in parallel to the first race of the world series for us and all other nations not participating in the world series. We will contact you (all signed-up drivers of non-participating nations), when the time has come - if you don't mind.
kr
Lion
Calm down guys... 
As Paul has said; if you check the rules, you will see that we do infact have a rule in place to protect against this.
"Series specific rules
Each driver will only be able to participate in up to 3 races per season."
This means that each nation will have to use a minimum of 6 drivers.
This thread is closed
Live for Speed World Series Discussion
(189 posts, closed, started )
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