Seems some people just don't understand the scope of conceptualizing, foolproofing, and implementing a feasible, performant, bug-free, and durable foundation for a game (those thousands of lines of code you load up in 15 sec) that's going to expand for a few years yet.
And then fixing all the unpredictable side effects that grow exponentially, while doing the tightrope dance in front of some jaded and skeptic crowd of outsiders..
It's no walk in the park.

Quote from Breizh :

Seems some people just don't understand the scope of conceptualizing, foolproofing, and implementing a feasible, performant, bug-free, and durable foundation for a game (those thousands of lines of code you load up in 15 sec) that's going to expand for a few years yet.
And then fixing all the unpredictable side effects that grow exponentially, while doing the tightrope dance in front of some jaded and skeptic crowd of outsiders..
It's no walk in the park.

Yes, I agree. I'm a programmer myself and when the code gets more and more complex, you need exponentially more time to add something new. You have to do very careful planning right in the beginning and while extending the code to make adding and changing things in the future as easy as possible (read: clean, structured code), but even then you have to watch out not to screw things up somewhere else. Then you have to test for ages and for every little change to test you need a recompile, which can take quite some time in a program as complex as LFS.

Performance critical parts like tyre physics are a whole different story alltogether, because sometime you simply don't have the option to use a perfectly clean and easily expandable code or else you'd have 30fps at a 4 GHz machine. If you have to change something then (like Scawen does now) you have to be double careful not to kill performance and not to cause any unwanted side-effects.

I bet many people here couldn't even write the simplest programs by themselves, yet they somehow think that Scawen can add a gazillion things in a few months.

OMG wtf lmao roLF (S), let's get this thread locked.

No seriously,

I wouldn't give a damn about what some race drivers say about any simulation after 5 minutes/5 hours of play. Not before they have tried more than one sim and can drive n it like he/she would drive with their real cars. And if they then say it's good, realistic and the way it should, then I'll may believe him. But the most important thing is that if I don't like it I don't play it.

LFS has those bugs, mentiened so many times. GTR has it's own bugs as any other games do. The bugs in LFS are quite small actually but they have major effect in all areas from car setups to race tactics.

As to the comments about LFS tire modelling being the best and most complex means nothing. You haven't seen the code. The GTR's may be the right and realistic one, it just needs more enhancing. As said somewhere else the "bending rubber" in tires may be all show. And having the sound engine being synthetic can mean a lot of things. It may be for realism or it may be for the simple fact that the devs don't have access to good quality sound samples or don't want to spend so much time for each car's engine sounds.

Sure, the (the ones) bugs have been in LFS since the launch of S2 alpha. Having that language patch before the physics update seems to me to be the right choise after all. If I understood it correctly they had little vacation after the S2 alpha launch and that language patch was sort of "getting back to work thing". I know I'm saying this for the 20th time but imho they hi-nose bug is a critical bug that in a way destroys some of the realism in LFS.

To me this whole thread is a bad joke. Kitchen updates...couldn't be less interested...

Quote from AndroidXP :

I bet many people here couldn't even write the simplest programs by themselves, yet they somehow think that Scawen can add a gazillion things in a few months.

I can't code anything except the simplest HTML but I can write. Writing a short progress report takes 5 mins.

Quote :

Cry me a river... Play what you want, want what you play, it's just a game. The devs aren't living under a rock, they don't need you to stay up to date on actualities of the simracing world.

Exactly. It is just a game. Sometimes we just get a little tired because LFS has so much potential. Someone in the Brazilian forums (Soro) said that LFS doesn't simulate. LFS does everything. It is like a living organism, that responds to everything as it should, and not like some algorythms that sometimes have no answer to some of the variables. That is what makes us "complain". We see a glimpse of greatness, but then, in the execution, sometimes things fall behind (I know, we don't know yet how things will end up. But with how everything is being done, people expect greatness. And that is a lot of pressure on the devs).

Quote :

Quote :

I've got emotional issues over a game

Now, that might be flaming if it wasn't true.

If you're so sure about all this, get in direct contact with the devs, should you have a point, they'll certainly hear you out and let you know what they think and why.
Then again they might be busy doing something else than catering to your impatience and lack of perspective.

Never typed that in the first place. And well, it seems that some other people might be lacking perspective....

Oh, and btw, this is the place to directly contact the devs

Quote :

How come? You got any facts behind that? The two major reasons for that might be that: 1. GTL/GTR are based on real series -> it just looks more realistic to real drivers. 2. GTL/GTR are more famous. I bet very small minority of the real drivers that have some kind of history with sim games have even tried LFS. I just read from the Vienna Car Show thread that some real racer who drove Caterhams who had tried the Cyberseat with LFS was very impressed with LFS & LX4. Of course this is just one example. My point is that there are lots of more real race drivers in GTR/GTL community mostly because of the real licenses and the publicity that those games have had.

Well, there are professional driver who are in the Brazilian GTR league. And some of them are also old-schoolers in the sim area. Their opinion? LFS doesn't simulate. The setups adjustments in LFS do not correalte to real life setup adjustments. While in GTR/GTL they feel that it is the best sim available right now. They know that those games have a lot of flaws, but it is the one game that comes closer to real life cars. (and those are the words from guys who drive 450hp cars - Stock Car)

Quote :

And one more point: altough we are talking about sims they're still GAMES and made for gamers, not for real drivers.

Agree there. But hey, so we should just get the "sim" tag out of LFS (read mogar previous posts and you'll see why I mean that). IMO, if a game has the goal to be a Sim, it must be for real drivers and must be equal to reality. And not a "game", where you can exploit flaws to succeed.

Quote :

If you want to compare sims, at least give LFS a break and compare it to the only other sim that poses a threat - NetKar. And it's only conjecture 'cos no-ones played it. It might be poo.

Yes. I'm also waiting for that game. But don't get me wrong. I believe GTR2 will be just astonishing. And it will be a threat to LFS (well... that is a dangerous afirmative, because we only will know when they release GTR2).

Quote :

no, alpha

Thanks for the correction.

Quote :

I saw real racedrivers play LFS, and they were really impressed.

But did they ever play other sims? Do they know what other titles are capable of?

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because you simply do not have the right to ORDER a progress report. If the devs want to/can, they give you one, if not you dont get one

I can't order anything. I am not ordering. I'm just asking.

Quote :

you know what? I might even buy gtr2 the time it is out. But if any new patch for LFS comes after that, I'll be back as everyone. Yes, just go and enjoy it, play other games, but the moment you get the email with the newsletter, you'll be back, I'll promise. And you know why? Cause you wont have to pay 50,- Euros for that update

I never said I stopped playing LFS. I didn't. And I won't. But I'm also waiting for the new sims. If they are REALLY better, than I only will come back if LFS surprises me (and that is a completely possible scenario).

Quote :

you arent flamed, you just showed that there is still some lack of infos and understanding in the part of the "EA gives me every year an update for 50,- euros, I want one in LFS too" part of the community

The only problem from this forum is that most of the times when people show different opinions from the majority, they are flamed. But hey, let's move on.

[ ]'s

Quote from Hyperactive :

As said somewhere else the "bending rubber" in tires may be all show.

misinformed people can write whatever they want "somewhere else", here they will be corrected.
its fed from the physics.

Quote from KiDCoDEa :

misinformed people can write whatever they want "somewhere else", here they will be corrected.
its fed from the physics.

The same way as bumps are fed from the physics in GTR.

It is more of a graphics detail than actual physics, no matter where the values come from.

Sure it's graphical, in so much as you can see it on your screen. But you can watch the tyres to see how they behave, and change the setup to improve what you see. Plus, in all other sims the only 'suspension' is the springs and dampers. In LFS we have the extra semi-damped tyre carcass at play, thus making LFS far better.

It's NOT done for show. Hell, show me anything in LFS thats just done for show

Too thick and sleezy for me.
How about this for progress report:

Work continues on LFS as outlined; done when it's done.

Hoooray!

The work continues, now I'm relieved.

Quote from Falkowski83 :

Well, there are professional driver who are in the Brazilian GTR league. And some of them are also old-schoolers in the sim area. Their opinion? LFS doesn't simulate. The setups adjustments in LFS do not correalte to real life setup adjustments. While in GTR/GTL they feel that it is the best sim available right now. They know that those games have a lot of flaws, but it is the one game that comes closer to real life cars. (and those are the words from guys who drive 450hp cars - Stock Car)

And only flaw they find in LFS is the setting bugs (and maybe the tyre grip issue)? I still think that the non-licensed cars and tracks affects more than they think.

If someone has seen some kind of "come all real race drivers here and post your opinions about different games" threads on RSCnet.org those would be interesting to read.

Cool, lets throw in some more cowbell!

Quote from tristancliffe :

Plus, in all other sims the only 'suspension' is the springs and dampers. In LFS we have the extra semi-damped tyre carcass at play, thus making LFS far better.

Sorry, but you haven't seen the code either. You are just making assumptions. The same way I did when I said that "It is more of a graphics detail than actual physics, no matter where the values come from.". I could say that Netkar's physics involve the rigidity of the materials used IN shock absorbers. Or that the...

Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. In short it's not a fact, it's your opinion.

Also posting assumptions from what Eric/Victor/Scawen are doing is nothing more than assumptions. As long as they keep the info to them selves we simply don't know. Scawen has said that he will look into the aero and make/build some tire experiment device-coding thingies (in technical terms speaking...). Scawen also said that Eric is working on some track/combo/something. Or was working.

But I guess the devs don't really speak so much about the progress so that people wouldn't take it as a "solid promise of things to come in next patch/update". Or make guesses and wrong conclusions from their posts like I did above in this post.

Only thing I take as a fact is that there will be a patch/update.

Btw. nice drummer boy you got there, Tweaker. Though it looks more like compulsive movements than drumming


EDIT:

Quote from tristancliffe :

Hell, show me anything in LFS thats just done for show

The CMX-viewer?

Quote from Hyperactive :

Sorry, but you haven't seen the code either. You are just making assumptions. The same way I did when I said that "It is more of a graphics detail than actual physics, no matter where the values come from.". I could say that Netkar's physics involve the rigidity of the materials used IN shock absorbers. Or that the...

If you could see the shock absorbers bend (uhoh) then it wouldn't be pure conjecture.

Certain things are not assumptions both because they have been stated in the ancient history of LFS development, and also common sense. Drop your car in the "garage" and you can see the tires flex, proving that what Tristan said is true. Lower the pressure and OBSERVE the difference in the behaviour. That's not an assumption, that is an observation. If anyone before ever bothered to get so detailed with tire deformation and model how it affects car handling, it would've taken them a fraction of the time so "show it" via a renderer, compard to the time to develop it. In LFS it's visible because it's there (redundant, but needed to be pointed out apparantly), and for no other reason. That's an observation not an assumption.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It's NOT done for show. Hell, show me anything in LFS thats just done for show

...LFS IS NOT RICE LOL

All this being said, yes I will defend LFS until the proverbial bitter end, and I also understand the sentiment of those who are unhappy with the current state of things. It's easy playing LFS, seeing the great foundation having been laid and still being perfected so start thinking "if only this, if only that, blah blah". I'd be lying if I didn't say that didn't happen to me regularly. However, I support the project and WHY it's being done, period. I'd like a patch as much as anyone else, and I suspect the devs would like to release one probably MORE than you want it!

The ONLY sentiment that the "publicly unhappy" people are expressing, which I disagree with is that somehow Scawen could just simply make this process faster. I seriously doubt that to be true...

:uglyhamme Just laughing.

Tristanclif, I know you live stealthy in the Scawen's balls, so you know everything he is doing, even what he thinks, what he plans, and probably what he eats and what he shits...

You know everything. Sorry when we disagreed with you before.

(You just don't know what means SIMULATIONS, but that is not important...forget about it)

Well, I'm brazilian, that people who are always here whining, complaining...

That is because we are waiting for the carnaval, you know, we have nothing to do until there, so, why do not disturb the well deserved dev's rest...

PSSSSS! Devs working... c'mon... let's keep the noise low people, c'mon.

We just like to flame all foruns. We go forum by forum, opening threads like this one, just to complain, and perhaps cause a big irritation in the devs nerves...

We don't like LFS. In fact we HATE LFS... Yes... it's true, believe me.

WE HATE LFS

We hate so much, maybe more than we hate SIMULATION!!!


We love NFS.

NO!!! STOP!!! I said NFS???

Yes, we love it. NFS means: Never a ****ing Simulator!

Cause that we love it so much!

And of course NFSU too: Never a ****ing Simulator Understood???

We hate LFS, so we come here to disturb, not to help.

But...

Oh My F. Good... now I know we are wrong.

What are we doing brazilians whiners???

We are pointing the fails.:monkey2: We are monkeys... brazilian monkeys...

tsc tsc... we are helping the Devs pointing the fails... this will help the game to be improved...

No...forget everything. Now we LOVE this game!

YES, YES!!! We love the way the things are done, we love the 80% time without bug*, and we love high nose formula cars.

WE LOVE ALL THAT!!! Keep the game as it is, and go cooking!

(pssss... talk low... acting like that we'll blind the devs and they will not change anything anymore... and we will finally win! Yeahhhh! the stupid ****ing monkeys will win! My God, I'm so happy )



*a recent research from Tristanclif laboratories, after 8 months of exhaustive stressing tests, the result of grip fails has be appointed as a not important, but a funny (yes funny) feature that appears just around 20% of the race time. The users are unhappy cause they want more fun, so they are asking for a new patch to improve that to at least 50%.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

If you could see the shock absorbers bend (uhoh) then it wouldn't be pure conjecture.

Certain things are not assumptions both because they have been stated in the ancient history of LFS development, and also common sense. Drop your car in the "garage" and you can see the tires flex, proving that what Tristan said is true.

I didn't thought the fact that some things could have been said by the devs and tristan has certainly been here longer than me so he may know it better (hearsay! ). But the fact that what is shown and what is not (tire flex, suspension movement...) doesn't actually mean that it comes from the physics, or vice versa. Maybe the GPL is the purest example of this. The cars act very "diagonally" in the replays when the actual sim is quite smooth when you drive it.

Omg, now they are posting recipies!

Gotta write more...

Hmm, can't think anything now, but you (no one) just wait...

EDIT: Speed Soro: the blue pills, the blue pills!

@SpeedSoro
Alright then. There's no reason to lose your cool here and start lashing out at people. Everyone knows LFS has bugs. Noone is denying that, and noone is saying they don't want them fixed. You're missing the fact that Scawen has acknowledged the problems. That's already more than you'll get anywhere else.

I understand your reasoning, but there's a problem: Read carefully:

Pointing out the bugs, threatening to stop playing LFS, saying other things are better etc etc etc is NOT (note emphasis) going to make Scawen work any faster and/or better than he already is. Yes he took a break. The break is over, and he's working on things that bother you and everyone else. Nothing you do, including the "pressure" you exert (which I suspect amounts to nothing at the end of Scawen's day) will make this process faster. The process is already as fast as it can be. You act like the dev don't care, which is where you're dead wrong. They chose to do this remember? I'm sure they're a lot more concerned than you are as to whether there's bread on their tables, which really is none of our business anyway.

RECAP
1) LFS HAS PROBLEMS
2) DEVS KNOW
3) DEVS SAID JANUARY IS WORK TIME
4) YOUR "PRESSURE" IS GOING TO HAVE ZERO EFFECT ON DEVELOPMENT TIME
5) THE DEVS CARE ABOUT LFS EVEN MORE THAN YOU.

... again again again and again ...
grass is not growing faster when you pull it.

I think the devs worked really hard for the alpha release of s2, I don't think they had much freetime in the last years. after the release they took a longer break form working spend some time in real life, do some house work (kitchen and stuff).
Yes, it's long ago till the last bigger physics update and yes, sometimes it would be really nice to know what the three are doing.

But i can't understand why you guys come always with the same points the devs already know? Everytime there is a thread you bring the same arguments and everytime you get the same answers by the rest of the community. The devs work as fast as the can / want with their own style and way they want to. This game was never meant to be finished soon, it's about steady developement and improving.
I also think the dev's already know about the physic bugs, no need to point this out everytime. (I think all of us know already about the bugs LFS has, and most of us are not saying that there are no bugs, but this game is imho the most bugfree game I ever had and you even have lots of fun with 20 drivers on track, enjoy leagues and stuff)

I understand that you want the best for the game, want fixes / updates for everything, but sometimes it's better to wait and get a high qual patch instead of 10 little ones. (Scawen already pointed out, that physic updates will only happen in big patches, as they split the compatibility).
So we have to wait, until the devs say / think that a patch it finished and ready for the mass.
If they would release a buggy patch you would also complain....

There are so many different good games out there, if you are tired of lfs, play another game ahve some fun there and come back when you want to. (hmm, like the devs, just have a break ).

just my 2 cents....

We had actually a lecture at uni today about thing that affect work and how people work under pressure. The result was that every human works slower when they are put under pressure by their bosses. So telling someone to work faster will actually make them work slower

So it's scientific or something...

I need to find a good mämmi recipe to put it here

Quote from Hyperactive :

I need to find a good mämmi recipe to put it here

What about this one? http://www.saunalahti.fi/~marian1/gourmet/mammi.htm
Remember, I'm a frenchie, not sure if it's good.

In this case, maybe I can replace the diet lunch with burgundy snails or frogs' legs (of course with a Bourgogne Alligoté)

Me.Profile.FloodCount++;

round and around and around and around.

i think we have all heard every single argument that has been put forward hear umpteen times already.................zzzzzzzz

is nobody getting dizzy or bored?

i know you guys obviously disagree, but continually regurgitating the same points isnt getting us anywhere, and it is certainly not constructive.

everyone is aware of the faults in LFS, and the devs even more so. im sure every effort is being made to fix these faults, but only one step can be taken at a time.

for the mean time, keep yourselves happy with whatever works for you, if you dont like LFS, dont play it. i even get annoyed/bored with it sometimes.

ill stop now before i end up regurgitating what has already been said.

Quote from mosquito25 :

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~marian1/gourmet/mammi.htm

Eh, Think!

"These preparations take many hours, and after baking mammi has yet to be stored in refrigerator for 3 to 4 days before being ready to eat"

Now Scawen is going to be busy in his new pimped kitchen, making mämmi for himself, Eric and Victor:doh: :irked:

In 5 days...
Ze Mammi Experience - Devs

Quote from Breizh :

Seems some people just don't understand the scope of conceptualizing, foolproofing, and implementing a feasible, performant, bug-free, and durable foundation for a game (those thousands of lines of code you load up in 15 sec) that's going to expand for a few years yet.
And then fixing all the unpredictable side effects that grow exponentially

Yes, keep the size of this project in mind, scawen is as far as i can tell only one person.

id software's quakeworld (1996, anyone remember? ), the source for the client itself is around 180,000 lines of code, a first person shooter from 10 years ago.

Just in case there's some confusion about what people said in posts - it's been split off from the kitchen thread - this split-off thread may contain some references to the other thread, even though I tried to separate the two (but I'm not going to edit people's posts over this)

I can't go away from this game, even feeling angry with some cars and some bugs... even playing it less and less each week, I feel it's impossible to give up him...

If Scawen did at least better AI's, and resolved the grip bugs, I'd be happy, for one year maybe.

I don't care too much about OW cars, and I really don't care too much about clutch pack SLD.

I mean, I care, but my favourite car is XFR and the others GTRs, so, if the game were just with those 4 cars, but without the grip bug and good (fast and fair) AIs, the game would margin the perfection (ok ok... I'm a little exaggerated...)

Of course there would be a lot of things to do yet, but those would be complementation, not fundamental things.

Many people would say: AI is not important. Ok, but it is, at least for me and a lot of people who I know. To trainny, to have some fun without get nervous with stupid kids, to play without connection...

AIs are something important, but not so important as to correct the grip bug, the most important thing to fix, I guess.

Scawen has said that is probably caused by the transition zone in the adherence limite, and that he is working on it. Lets wait he found the solution. But, while the solution does not come, what should we do?

Yes, GTR is a great game, GTL too, althoug I can't say the same about SIMBIN. They smeel too comercial for me, but what can I do if their games are so great... I guess GTR2 will be a fantastic game, but even yet miles away from LFS immersion.

Victor, you could at least give us a tenuous light about how the things are going... if them are going...