I have removed the off topic posts from this thread.

And just for the record, it's ok for people to disagree with each other. We don't mind debates as long as it doesn't get abusive and personal.

Please don't bait each other. If you find someone really annoying, add them to your ignore list instead of provoking them. Peace.

Now back on topic please

IMHO the best force feedback feeling I've experienced is in Richard Burns Rally. One cannot emphasize how realistic this game is.

LFS comes second.

Quote from Gunn :

Now back on topic please

3...2...1...Now!

Quote from Del-Dredd :

Combined axis - No
Enable FF - yes
Effects strength - 97%
Spring strength - 97%
Damper strength - 0%
Center spring enabled - yes
Center Spring strength - 0%

I've also seen it recommended that you should set damper to 0% but it just felt terrible to me, no resistance in the wheel whatsoever and a weird click/bump as the cars weight would shift from one side to the other. Spring and Damper are the two main forces produced by the wheel, putting either to 0% just doesn't make sense imo.

Edit: Talking in relation to the Momo Racing here.

Quote from tailing :

I've also seen it recommended that you should set damper to 0% but it just felt terrible to me, no resistance in the wheel whatsoever and a weird click/bump as the cars weight would shift from one side to the other. Spring and Damper are the two main forces produced by the wheel, putting either to 0% just doesn't make sense imo.

Edit: Talking in relation to the Momo Racing here.

Setting spring and damper to 0% is what is recommended by the developers beecause the only forces created are done by the physics engine.

Well I could be wrong but my understanding of it all is that setting them to zero is like telling the wheel to ignore all the information that the game is sending it.
In the end I think ffb is so subjective that you should just adjust things until you find what is right for you.

From experience (with power steering in my car, and none in karting ) I know the wheel should go light with understeer and I'm surprised anyone is suggesting otherwise. If the front wheels aren't gripping then how could they put up any resistance?

The FF in LFS seems a bit odd at times but with so many other forces acting on you in real life, it's really difficult to relate that to a PC. The FF on oversteer seems a bit strange to me too, as it seems to encourage you to lose the back end and you have to fight it to counter-steer. I've never experienced that in real life but like I say, it's almost impossible to compare the two directly.

I doubt FF in LFS models the front wheels only. If that were true then why the see-saw effect on straights? Has it actually been stated by the devs or is it one of those rumours that's become fact?

It wouldn't make any sense to do that anyway, since FF is a fantastic opportunity to give lots more feedback to the user, about weight distribution etc. GPL simply based it around the centre of gravity iirc, and that worked extremely well.

I agree that RBR has excellent FF. You don't notice it working when you're driving, which is always the sign that they've got it right. It's extremely fluid

Thanks for the info, I think my problem was that I did not have the FF set high enough in game (racing on tarmac course). I increased it to 145% and the car felt a lot better, I could even feel what felt like torque steer. From what I have read the setting obviously depends on what car and what track surface or type ie Autocross, Rallycross or Tarmac you are racing on.

The ability to change the Force volume so to speak while in car and racing is a great benefit and enables you to do this.

By the way I have been having a great time on some of the Autocross layouts people have posted here and on RSC, will have to give it a go and design something.
I will keep an eye on the thread incase someone proposes more settings, but I am happy with what I have set up at the moment.

Thanks again

Del

My windows settings are as follows:

Combined axis - No
Enable FF - yes
Effects strength - 100%
Spring strength - 0%
Damper strength - 0%
Center spring enabled - yes
Center Spring strength - 0%

I like the above. I usually tweak the ffb strength in game along with castor to get a better feel.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Not tried GTL (I refuse to), but GTR's FF was a joke in terms of temming you what was happening. And I've just tried rFactor, and it's got to be the worse FF ever.

LFS tells you all you need to know, and doesn't lie like ALL other games. NR2003 is close in terms of feel, but I still prefer LFS's.

Rfactor has not even been released yet, not even a demo, it's a Multiplayer Test, and you are referring to the FF in a multiplayer test version????

Quote from durbster :

The FF in LFS seems a bit odd at times but with so many other forces acting on you in real life, it's really difficult to relate that to a PC. The FF on oversteer seems a bit strange to me too, as it seems to encourage you to lose the back end and you have to fight it to counter-steer.

You know that's odd, I've read other people mentioning that, yet I can practically let LFS doing the countersteering for me (though it won't recover the slide as quickly as I could, nor prevent it in the first place).

Perhaps it's more related to the users wheel and settings. I can feel everything happening almost before it's happened, which helps me keep the car pointing in the right direction.

Quote from Bob Smith :

You know that's odd, I've read other people mentioning that, yet I can practically let LFS doing the countersteering for me (though it won't recover the slide as quickly as I could, nor prevent it in the first place).

Perhaps it's more related to the users wheel and settings. I can feel everything happening almost before it's happened, which helps me keep the car pointing in the right direction.

Interesting. I haven't really played with the FF settings much so perhaps I was a bit premature in commenting. So do you get light steering when the fronts wash out (on the RWD cars specifically)?

I do. And when the back starts going, I can also feel that in the wheel (because the fronts want to keep going straight).

And as the other Bob said, letting the wheel do what it wants and just helping it a bit usually recovers a slide.

Yes, me too.

I feel the wheels going 'light' and as Bob said I almost can let the FF to countersteer by itself when oversteering.

My Momo Racing settings are:
Overall=100%
Spring=0%
Damper=0%
Enable centering...=Unchecked

DeliriumT

You guys are only feeling the FWD cars steering going light turning while accelerating I bet, and that is not what we were talking about

Quote from DeliriumT :

My Momo Racing settings are:
Overall=100%
Spring=0%
Damper=0%
Enable centering...=Unchecked

Same as me, although I've got centering check (but at 0%).

Steve - this is RWDs as well. The feeling is certainly nowhere near as obvious as in other games though. I mean my friend had a go on LFS the other day and asked me "Is FFB on?" and I'm like "errr, yeah". So I turn it down to 0% and then he can feel the difference. My point? The FFB in LFS is really subtle, it takes time to get used to it. But it IS good. I can often feel a slide about to happen in RWDs and prevent it from occuring with a little centering of the wheel. And the RB4 on rallycross is awesome, I can just position the car into any angle of slide I want without spinning. Such fun.

I think while the matter has been discussed over and over many times, and yes the devs said the FF is simply the forces coming through the front driving axes from the wheels, it worth a few words.

I think GTR's FF was fantastic...on MS FF wheel. I tried it with my new DFP and it's not so good.

Also my opinion that simply giving the forces to the FF wheel seems to have it's merits, while on the other hand - indeed - we knowingly put aside the chance to give even more feedback on what the car's doing. Yes, this is simulator. But it's also a game.

And (also IMO) the LFS FF is not too great. The ff basically locks the wheel when the car is stopped and you press the brake. It is sawing in the middle. It does not seem to give me correct info on RWD cars (some does not agree some does, this is merely my opinion)

I think the physics need some fixing too, so these may be interconnected. (grip of tyres, gravity, jumping/rolling on curbs, flying when hitting the pit wall parts...)

Until the physics and/or ff effects are fixed I judge by the tyre noise, it's very accurate. The ff usually lags quite a bit anyway (see the 301 threads for proof if you need).

But hey, this is merely a game in development. It's great, great fun, but needs fixing in probably many areas in my opinion.

On a side note: there's no such thing as 'it uses the forces so it's accurate'.
There are way too many thigns simulated - more or less correctly - to say it's the real thing. It'll always be canned to a certain level. It's a programmed virtual simulation of a reality with highly reduced number of variables and components, represented on a 2D screen and a plastic wheel (actually many different wheels with different characteristics).

Please don't tell me it's real. :-) but it's a good game!

Quote from durbster :

From experience (with power steering in my car, and none in karting ) I know the wheel should go light with understeer and I'm surprised anyone is suggesting otherwise. If the front wheels aren't gripping then how could they put up any resistance?

The FF in LFS seems a bit odd at times but with so many other forces acting on you in real life, it's really difficult to relate that to a PC. The FF on oversteer seems a bit strange to me too, as it seems to encourage you to lose the back end and you have to fight it to counter-steer. I've never experienced that in real life but like I say, it's almost impossible to compare the two directly.

I doubt FF in LFS models the front wheels only. If that were true then why the see-saw effect on straights? Has it actually been stated by the devs or is it one of those rumours that's become fact?

It wouldn't make any sense to do that anyway, since FF is a fantastic opportunity to give lots more feedback to the user, about weight distribution etc. GPL simply based it around the centre of gravity iirc, and that worked extremely well.

I agree that RBR has excellent FF. You don't notice it working when you're driving, which is always the sign that they've got it right. It's extremely fluid

I am sure Scawen stated how it works although it might take a huge search on RSC to find the post. And as to it being strange to just base the FF on the front wheels, Why?

When the back steps out the front wheels will try to track the direction of travel etc so just by letting the forces on the fronts drive the FF you get all of the required information about the front and back of the car in a way that will be natural to you if you have put a real car into under or oversteer. you also feel the steering forces lighten slightly as the back nears edge of grip. As stated by Bob, it is more subtle than other games that play effects when certain things happen, but all the information is there.

For info the FF in RBR is actually done in the same way as well from what I know.

'Everybody' agree the FF in RBR is good. 'Everybody' agree the FWD FF in LFS is good. 'Everybody' agree RBR and LFS do FF the same way. All the cars in RBR have driven front wheels, no?

All I would like it to feel front wheels understeer, thats not to much to ask. Other sims have it, why not LFS? LFS is supposed to a the all mighty SIM and be very accurate, well when you understeer hard in a real car the steering goes light and sometimes shaky, but why not in LFS? People say they can feel the steering go light in the game, they lie, I played LFS on about 10 different PC's and with 5 different force feedback wheels.

Calling me a liar is not gonna get you very far, Steve. Settle down.

I think the only instantly noticeable difference between LFS and Real Life™ FF is the obvious missing vibrations of many things that you not only feel through the body, but also through the steering wheel. Things where you don't have any sideways forces acting on the front wheels (and are therefore not felt in LFS) like some road bumps and the general roughness of bad tarmac for example.

Now, I know that we'd need a FF wheel that could also generate vibrations or up/down/forward and back movements (not only rotating left/right) to accurately simulate this, but leaving something completely out just because we cannot do it 100% is not the way to go IMO.

So what I'd like to see is: an option to turn simulated vibrations on, which would translate bumps etc. in actual small & short left/right movements. These should not be 'canned' (aka pre-programmed) effects but the actual up/down/whatever forces should be used to calculate an appropriate FF behaviour.

I know that there would be some guesswork included and the ideal device for this would probably FF pants, but I'd rather have only 97% "real" FF but I can feel when I go straight over rails (or other big and obvious obstacles) than having 100% and not feeling anything at all, because behold, that thing didn't produce any sideways forces because the angle wasn't right for this to happen.

And before I have to get my flameproof suit, I repeat: option.

Quote from atledreier :

Calling me a liar is not gonna get you very far, Steve. Settle down.

where did I call YOU a lier? oh wait nowhere, roofles

Quote from steve :

People say they can feel the steering go light in the game, they lie, I played LFS on about 10 different PC's and with 5 different force feedback wheels.

Q.E.D.

For the first poster- "Del-Dredd" -- just try this and see what you think.


Overall 55, spring 145, damper 0... See if you get more feeling "around the center"....
Or maybe even 60/140/0... Also try un-checking the centering box altogether.

Adjust FF in game while driving with < and > keys.. Some cars feel like they need about 100 in game and some feel really strong with as little as 30... so don't be afraid to dial it in with each car until it feels right. I have a driving force, a Momo racing, and a DFP.. DFP is great with LFS BTW, but so is the momo racing, it is just super sensitive compared to a DFP in 540 degree mode.

I think the mechanics of the wheel add enough drag so that no damper is needed in the Logitech CP. The damper just adds a constant force, slowing down all the movement.. It helps control your movements though, and might even simulate the naturally occurring drag in the steering system of a real car.. Don't go crazy with it though, try 5 to 10, even that much makes quite a difference in the game.