Thanks much, Burnsy.
From the friendly after race chat of round 1 IGTC:
04 K.O'Keefe:04 T.Jessen - Sorry to you and Kolz. Race was my fault.
IGTC B.Keough:And to 3id and Adaptive for the podium.
IGTC B.Crooks:indeed
IGTC S.Franke:lol
03 T.Liigmann:thnx
IGTC S.Franke:Kolz
14 D.Williams:bah
IGTC S.Franke:leg.end.
With this kind of comments you in my oppinion are not worth beeing an IGTC admin and should be excluded. You really have a hard time to keep your mouth shut, haven´t you? All I have to say to you.
04 K.O'Keefe:04 T.Jessen - Sorry to you and Kolz. Race was my fault.
IGTC B.Keough:And to 3id and Adaptive for the podium.
IGTC B.Crooks:indeed
IGTC S.Franke:lol
03 T.Liigmann:thnx
IGTC S.Franke:Kolz
14 D.Williams:bah
IGTC S.Franke:leg.end.
With this kind of comments you in my oppinion are not worth beeing an IGTC admin and should be excluded. You really have a hard time to keep your mouth shut, haven´t you? All I have to say to you.
I can't find anything saying that in the IGTC rules.
In fact there is not only one blue flag which rules for every series.
How can we guess which one IGTC is using ?
However, watching at the replays, I've seen some drivers who were 5 or 6 laps down, and who were not having a close fight for position at the moment, fighting with the leaders for 3 or 4 laps while being under blue flag.
This is just stupid and useless to me.
You need to clarify the blue flag rule you want to use in IGTC as soon as possible.
I already quoted the relevant rule here.
However, I will clarify it further if you really think it's necessary.
However, I will clarify it further if you really think it's necessary.
I think most drivers understand the blue flag rule, although a few do think it means get out the way.
We did see many, many people under blue flag, clearly defending the racing line, and clearly not moving off the racing line when they had plenty of scope to do so.
We did see many, many people under blue flag, clearly defending the racing line, and clearly not moving off the racing line when they had plenty of scope to do so.
I believe it is.
When some drivers who are laps down are making the leaders to lose one or more second per lap during several laps it IS a problem.
We know from the previous season that even after four hours of racing it's often a matter of few seconds between the teams on the podium.
Not to mention that it's an opened gate to some abuse.
Alright, we'll take a revision under consideration in advance of Round 2.
Thanks.
Thanks.
I know while I was doing my stint as race manager, there were several driver that were holding lapped cars up quite extensively, for obscene lengths of time too. It does need to be looked at, even if we're gonna be at the other end of it as a team.
+1
And I'm sure SO would make it virtually impossible to make a clean pass (unless you don't have a car fighting for position up ur bum, in which case a planned pass could be possible, depending on how well the driver negotiates a turn.. and then makes the actual pass during one of the only two true safe places to pass). FE is also an great example where a driver can be 2 or even more seconds slower, but still prevent you from passing, just by being more or less on the line - unless the lapping driver turns aggressive and dives etc. - but surely, we don't want anything like that :o
I think this is very important. From what I could see, it seems like leaders getting frustrated that people racing were disrupting their hotlapping.
More often than not it was the cars getting lapped that were racing for position, rather than the lapping cars getting "stuck" racing for position behind a lapped car.
If you are faster, get a run, take the inside, the lapped driver will yield. I saw very clean predictable driving from most everyone out there yesterday. (disregard this for the attrocities under the SC). With the amount of talent and competitiveness across the entire IGTC field this year, you cannot expect people to pull over when you are half a straightaway behind.
1st instance was i was 2 sec ahead of 2nd...
i was held up by backmarker for 3 corners... then by next corner i was almost overtaken..
i was held up by backmarker for 3 corners... then by next corner i was almost overtaken..
Yeah this really needs to be looked at... I was stuck behind blue flagged drivers for several laps on different occasions, first with M Telling and later V. Gruppelaar. According to the current rules they probably did nothing wrong and weren't deliberately blocking me, but they were holding me up and I didnt want to make a risky overtaking manouvre on a lapped car!
How much trouble is it for a lapped driver to check their mirrors before the end of the backstretch or main stretch and when they see a faster driver on the inside line behind them and are blue flagged to lift the throttle, brake a little earlier and let the faster driver overtake on the inside? This is very easily done and doesn't cost much time.
There should be some rule that a blue flagged driver needs to make room if they are getting the blue flag for more then 1 lap. Some of the "slower" teams were running with a low downforce set enabling them to reach high top speeds on the straights... it's very difficult for the faster, but more downforce, car behind to make a pass unless they take a lot of risk through the corners.
How much trouble is it for a lapped driver to check their mirrors before the end of the backstretch or main stretch and when they see a faster driver on the inside line behind them and are blue flagged to lift the throttle, brake a little earlier and let the faster driver overtake on the inside? This is very easily done and doesn't cost much time.
There should be some rule that a blue flagged driver needs to make room if they are getting the blue flag for more then 1 lap. Some of the "slower" teams were running with a low downforce set enabling them to reach high top speeds on the straights... it's very difficult for the faster, but more downforce, car behind to make a pass unless they take a lot of risk through the corners.
I don't understand why you think there is a problem with this? It's a thing called racing! You come up to lap cars and you lose time in the process. If you lose more time than the person behind you, it's that magic word again.. "racing".
It's like people want online racing to be some clinical, systematic process of individual time trials. They resent things that interfere with that process.. like "wind" and "other racers". It's a mentality that I find rather irritating, and I'm having difficulty resisting the temptation to mock in a dreadfully patronizing way. This is LFS - MULTIplayer. For crying out loud, get this thing sorted out in your head, please!
I am not sure if you mind me posting here guys but as leader of the ConeDodgers i feel it would be useful to put a point across.
SamH i fully understand what you say but the difference in skill levels in this series is huge and its clear that racers have different views on what a "Blue Flag" means and its not a sprint where it may happen but 4 hours where it will many many times.
As LFS puts up a huge "Blue Flag" message that only appears when the person is being lapped so this should be the trigger to the rules.
As it is the rules in the IGTC are not what is normal for the blue flag.
Some think that the blue flag means "stop within 50 mtrs and let me pass" others think it means "sod off, i am in front so pass me if you can"
Maybe the IGTC should open up a discussion in this forum to get some agreement on what the blue flag means and what exact action drivers should take.
It should also cover what happens when a disconnect happens as you could clearly have a driver thats in the lead of the race but is getting a blue flag from every car.
Maybe i can open the discussion with this:
When a driver gets a blue flag, they are to comply as soon as they safely can. This means a person who gets a blue flag is not expected to slow down and let the other pass in a corner, but when the first straight is available.
There should also be a map of each track showing the area of the track that are counted as straights.
Agreed, FIA flag rules state "During the race :
- The flag should normally be shown to a car about to be lapped and, when shown, the driver concerned must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity."
IMO, this means the driver shouldnt race the driver doing the lapping, and should move off the racing line as soon as the oppurtunity arises.
However, it is down to the IGTC admins to decide what the blue flag actually means in IGTC, because ATM the rules are a bit wooley in that area, and open to interptritation.
- The flag should normally be shown to a car about to be lapped and, when shown, the driver concerned must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity."
IMO, this means the driver shouldnt race the driver doing the lapping, and should move off the racing line as soon as the oppurtunity arises.
However, it is down to the IGTC admins to decide what the blue flag actually means in IGTC, because ATM the rules are a bit wooley in that area, and open to interptritation.
That is surely completely wrong.
You shouldn't move off line, you should hold your line and let the the overtaking car past at the earliest safe opportunity. (preferably on a straight or the approach to a corner)
You don't have to pull offline, or let them pass mid corner.
The overtaking cars doesn't automatically have the right to drive at hotlapping speed and line when he's passing a blue flagger.(which some people here seem to think is the case. I wonder how much racing some people actually watch?)
I see absolutely nothing wrong with the rules as IGTC have them at the moment.
Obviously the person being lapped shouldn't race the guy overtaking him, and should do his best not to hold anyone up when they are lapping, but this doesn't mean he has to yield where its unsafe to do so. It's the lappers responsibility to execute the overtake in a safe manner.
I think you might be confused there. IIRC I was actually pulling away from you, so if you aren't actually faster, there is no reason for me to let you through only to be stuck behind you.
I have just checked the replay now, and I held my line at all times, just like the rules state. The only time you actually did a passing manouver, I let you through. Shame you took that turn so slowly that I still tapped your rear, making me lose time.
You got stuck behind me because you were slower
Then I let the leader through (he actually tried to lap me, unlike you), that made me lose time, so you came too close, and did your first attempt at passing me and went through because I didn't defend. So there you are. 
Edit: comment to the above, the best way to let a lapping driver through is give them some draft on a straight, brake late for the turn and go wide, letting the lapping car through on the inside. Works great, and neither of the cars lose time (lapping car actually gains draft, what more can you want ffs
)The IGTC approach to blue flags is pretty common in competitive racing, and most notably very much in keeping with the FIA regulations.
"Earliest opportunity". Last night, our interpretation was that, when we were competing for position with cars behind us, we were not going to let those cars through in order to let a lapping car, 2 cars further back, get their way through. We regard our 18th position as no less of an entitlement to us than the lapping car's 6th or 7th position to him. We may have held up blue flaggers during the race last night as a result of such a situation as described here, but frankly an "early opportunity" did not present itself. In strict interpretation of the rules, though we may have held up blue flagging cars, we did so entirely within the constraints of the FIA and IGTC rules. In my opinion, anyone delayed by the fact that other cars on the track were competing for their respective positions should simply suck it up. If F1 drivers at the top of their game can be held up by traffic, as they SO often are, then so can you.
LFS's Blue Flag message is not actually that accurate. It can trigger when a car, three cars behind you, is actually the trigger, even when the two cars that are behind you are racing you for position. You cannot rely on that flag to tell you when you're ACTUALLY under a blue flag. You're not ACTUALLY under a blue flag unless the car IMMEDIATELY behind you has a right to pass. Furthermore, you need not under anyone's normal racing rules make efforts to allow a lapping car through until they are actually IN a position to overtake.
The LFS blue flag should be regarded as an alert to a possible situation, rather like LFS's Yellow Flag, which triggers significantly more often than it should, but should not be treated as an alternative or a replacement to on-track observation.
+1
Again, too much hotlap mentality around here.
If you are faster, make a move, and the car being lapped will yield the position. It's not rocket science.
99% of the time the car being lapped is just waiting for you to make some sort of move indicating you want to get by. If you're not close enough to make a move, why should they slow down/move off line?
ad Blue flags
I have to apologize to Dynamic racing for fighting with them. I haven't receive informations from my teammate, that they're lap ahead of us. We'll do our best to not repeat that in next races.
ad race
Good race until we destroyed our engine. We were very slow then, so 13th position was the best, what we could do.
Many thanks to organizers and sorry again for that mistake on our site.
I have to apologize to Dynamic racing for fighting with them. I haven't receive informations from my teammate, that they're lap ahead of us. We'll do our best to not repeat that in next races.
ad race
Good race until we destroyed our engine. We were very slow then, so 13th position was the best, what we could do.
Many thanks to organizers and sorry again for that mistake on our site.
There's some good discussion going on in here. It seems pretty likely that we will see a serious revision to the blue flag policies prior to round 2, so if anyone wants to take a stab at formulating a new, fair & balanced (sorry, Fox News) policy, please feel free. I'd like to get the best gauge for public sentiment before setting it in stone again.
Why?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the rules as they are, if they are followed using common sense by everyone.
If you start pandering to the hotlap mentality racers I'll be pretty disappointed tbh.
The rules as you have them are fair and used my most forms of motorsport, i see no reason to change the rules, and plenty of reason for some drivers to learn what the rules actually mean.
Well, that's the problem Ben. Some drivers believe that blue flagged cars must "roll over and die" to let them past.
Where as others believe that blue flagged cars should just let them past, where others (correctly) believe that it's the lapping cars duty to make a successful pass, but the blue flagged car shouldn't do anything to hold the lapping driver up, like blocking or other defensive driving techniques.
The only problem with that, is while battling other people, you don't want to let someone you're battling past, thinking he's lapping you. A tracker idea is maybe (using button system), have at the bottom (a la CTRA BJ server), who is in front and behind you positionally (and gap at every split?), to make identifying who you're around better.
That should aid (even though some teams had good spotters, I know that the driver that was off + 1 other team mate spotting worked beautifully for us) teams in making the correct decision while letting blue flagging cars by. Also, Kyoto should be better for lapped cars than Blackwood, as it's actually a rather slow track.
Where as others believe that blue flagged cars should just let them past, where others (correctly) believe that it's the lapping cars duty to make a successful pass, but the blue flagged car shouldn't do anything to hold the lapping driver up, like blocking or other defensive driving techniques.
The only problem with that, is while battling other people, you don't want to let someone you're battling past, thinking he's lapping you. A tracker idea is maybe (using button system), have at the bottom (a la CTRA BJ server), who is in front and behind you positionally (and gap at every split?), to make identifying who you're around better.
That should aid (even though some teams had good spotters, I know that the driver that was off + 1 other team mate spotting worked beautifully for us) teams in making the correct decision while letting blue flagging cars by. Also, Kyoto should be better for lapped cars than Blackwood, as it's actually a rather slow track.
Round 1: Post-Race Discussion
(156 posts, started )
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