To clarify a bit, I don't plan to substantially alter the intent of the rule. I just plan to clarify the wording and to give more direct instructions to both the lapped car and the lapping car as to what they should do in a blue flag situation. To help drivers better understand the intent, as many seemed not to during round 1.

Quote from srdsprinter :

+1

Again, too much hotlap mentality around here.

If you are faster, make a move, and the car being lapped will yield the position. It's not rocket science.

That all sounds well and good, and would work if that were indeed the case, I am sure people aren't worried about those drivers that do adhere to that.

However, this discussion is coming about because of those few drivers who think it's ok to hold up, clearly faster, drivers for almost 2 laps in some cases, this is where the issue needs tidying.

No one is asking any driver to stop and let a faster driver throught, but those being lapped must appreciate that being held up for 1 or 2 laps, and or having to make clearly risky moves to try and get past, does make things frustrating for those trying to do the passing, especially if the driver needing to get past has the place behind them breathing down there neck.

Quote from danowat :

That all sounds well and good, and would work if that were indeed the case, I am sure people aren't worried about those drivers that do adhere to that.

However, this discussion is coming about because of those few drivers who think it's ok to hold up, clearly faster, drivers for almost 2 laps in some cases, this is where the issue needs tidying.

No one is asking any driver to stop and let a faster driver throught, but those being lapped must appreciate that being held up for 1 or 2 laps, and or having to make clearly risky moves to try and get past, does make things frustrating for those trying to do the passing, especially if the driver needing to get past has the place behind them breathing down there neck.

Agreed 100%. But on the other side of the coin, lapping drivers must respect and give room to the cars being lapped. There is absolutely no excuse for a lapping car to make contact with a lapped car while making a pass, even if the lapped car is driving poorly.

That's the thing. Sometime during the race, I let cars past while blueflagged very easy, without any battle. It's mostly about attitude too, if a "fast" car that's being blue flagged, I think he'd have more inclination to go "I'm faster than this person (or so he thinks, else he'd not be getting lapped) I'm not letting him by", whereas a team that thinks of themself to be "slow", they have a more liberal approach to letting cars past when under blue flag.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

That's the thing. Sometime during the race, I let cars past while blueflagged very easy, without any battle. It's mostly about attitude too, if a "fast" car that's being blue flagged, I think he'd have more inclination to go "I'm faster than this person (or so he thinks, else he'd not be getting lapped) I'm not letting him by", whereas a team that thinks of themself to be "slow", they have a more liberal approach to letting cars past when under blue flag.

Yes, this is a problem. People occasionally need to swallow their pride.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

To clarify a bit, I don't plan to substantially alter the intent of the rule. I just plan to clarify the wording and to give more direct instructions to both the lapped car and the lapping car as to what they should do in a blue flag situation. To help drivers better understand the intent, as many seemed not to during round 1.

Ok Understood

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Yes, this is a problem. People occasionally need to swallow their pride.

I seemed to do it once every few corners...

Quote from Gil07 :

I think you might be confused there. IIRC I was actually pulling away from you, so if you aren't actually faster, there is no reason for me to let you through only to be stuck behind you.

I have just checked the replay now, and I held my line at all times, just like the rules state. The only time you actually did a passing manouver, I let you through. Shame you took that turn so slowly that I still tapped your rear, making me lose time.
You got stuck behind me because you were slower Then I let the leader through (he actually tried to lap me, unlike you), that made me lose time, so you came too close, and did your first attempt at passing me and went through because I didn't defend. So there you are.

Edit: comment to the above, the best way to let a lapping driver through is give them some draft on a straight, brake late for the turn and go wide, letting the lapping car through on the inside. Works great, and neither of the cars lose time (lapping car actually gains draft, what more can you want ffs )

I'm not sure what you were smoking when you wrote the above or what race you've been watching but you're completely wrong. Fact is that I was in 5th position, you were a couple of laps down and I got stuck behind you.... When the race leader (Conedodgers) pitted he came out of the pits just between yourself and me and he was in 4th position at the time. If you hadn't hold me up I would have been in front of him after his pitstop.

When he overtook you so did I, I couldn't afford losing more time behind you. As I wrote earlier I didn't want to make risky outbraking manouvres on lapped drivers, which is why I couldn't overtake you earlier... that was NOT because I was slower. I drove on the inside line a couple of times and you must have seen that in your mirror... I just dont understand why you didn't move out of the way.

After I got ahead of you I was pulling away from you, so I have no idea how you think you were faster then me.

And surely a "blue flag" message in your screen for 2 laps is not really indicating you're pulling away from someone... you weren't fighting for a position, so you had no reason to hold me up for that long.

*end rant*

I must have a different replay then... You never even attempted a pass, until CD was past me. No reason for me to just roll over and die, I'm racing too, you know?

This is one of the things that went wrong with the blue flags in thi srace, people not understanding that blue flag doesn't mean "stop right there and let me through". You have to attempt a pass first, and then the lapped driver can (and has to) let you through. I mean, is that the way you pass a car you're racing with too? You shouldn't behave any different from a normal overtaking move, the blue flagged car does the rest.

If you had even made any sign that you wanted to pass I'd have gone wide and let you through, no problem at all.

Edit: I made far too much mistakes, getting back to being near you, but yes, I was pulling away slightly until I had to go wide for CD. After that there wasn't much racing for me anyway, SC came out and the big crash happened, etc...

Quote :

And surely a "blue flag" message in your screen for 2 laps is not really indicating you're pulling away from someone...

Read what SamH said about blue flag detection in LFS, then you'll understand

Anyway, point is, you lost time because of your own fault,a dn not because of me. Lesson learned, try to overtake next time

It was a great race, we didn´t have luck in the qualification and in the race start, at least we were able to cross the finishing line and get back some lost places.

Congratulation to the winning team, to all of the contestans and the organizers.

See you in the second race

If I can make a request... personal grievances from the race should be confined to PMs. I'd like to use this thread for discussion on how blue flag rules should be addressed to clarify them for the drivers who, as evidenced by Rd. 1, misunderstand them.

As I've been discussing with Zafar from 3id, the real issue here is not the rules but rather the inexperience/confusion of some drivers. Inexperience is not an issue that can be fixed with rules, but the rules can be clarified to make it easier for drivers to gain experience in a safe manner.

Ok, sorry. I just felt I needed to defend my point

The blue flag rules are clear enough for me, not sure how to clarify them any further to be honest...

The FIA rules for blue flags are clear enough to me... unfortunately IGTC has its own set of rules and they're not clear. For me they mean that a a driver trying to pass a lapped car has to do this in the same manner as if it was for a position and thus taking risk in doing so. I have no problem with a blue flagged driver keeping his line through corners, but as soon as we reach the straight he needs to give room to the car behind. That just didn't happen... and getting a slipstream is nice, but doesn't always work. If the lapped car has a low downforce setup he can be very fast on the straight and you won't even get a slipstream.

I hope the rule will change and follow the FIA position on this. Why trying to re-invent the wheel? The FIA made clear rules for this.

*edit* sorry I don't want to sound unrespectful to the organisers of the league, you're doing a great thing! ... but there's always room for improvements ;-)

What a blue flag means in any governing body other than the FIA is that it should only be used to advise the lapped driver that there is a faster car approaching. It doesn't mean roll over and die, it doesn't even mean let them passed, its purely advisory. Which means that if you are in a battle for position and a faster car comes up on you, the slower cars are under absolutley no obligation to stop their battle and let the faster car through. Obviously the faster car is eventually going to get between the two slower cars, and when that happens the slower cars should use common sense and not race the faster one, but the faster car certainly should not expect the slower ones to get out of his way.

To let a lapping car passed is more of a gentleman's agreement of racing, not a hard and fast rule. Unfortunatley the hotlapper mentality tends to be predominant in the LFS comunity which leads to a slight lack in the gentleman attitude, which gives rise to discussions like this. It would be nice if we could come to a compromise using common sense.

And Dimitry, you are clearly demonstrating the "hotlapper" mentality. You are petrified about the prospect of actually having to catch the slower car and possibly be held up for a corner, and you clearly don't understand the process of lapping. What most slower drivers will do is allow you passed once you have initiated the move. Infact, as a faster driver in other sims, I hate it when slower drivers actively try to get out of my way. Its much better for them to stick to their line, wait for me to get close enough, then after i have initiated the pass, they back off and assist me getting through. But I never expect them to pull off-line and back off, mostly because thats spoiling their racing just to help me (which would be unfair for me to expect), but also because its an unpredictable move than can cause and accident. The FIA rule is written mostly to help the F1 boys who find overtaking almost impossible, and has no place in a touring/sports car endurance race.

Quote from Dimitry Gerards :

The FIA rules for blue flags are clear enough to me... unfortunately IGTC has its own set of rules and they're not clear. For me they mean that a a driver trying to pass a lapped car has to do this in the same manner as if it was for a position and thus taking risk in doing so.

That IS what they mean. So it seems they are clear. Have you ever in a race seen a lapped car braking on a straight? Most of the time passes happen in corners, and also with lappings. I don't see the danger in presenting yourself for the corner like you would in a normal pass, and go through on the inside of the corner...

I think the current rules are good, if everyone followed them correctly there would be no problems. I agree that there were cars that were blocking and unnecessarily holding up other cars (and themselves ), but that's due to driver attitude and not the rules. I don't like this "Hotlap" mentality, as if the track only belongs to the "faster" car... :/

Edit: Scott said it all, I have nothing to add.

Dimitry, I've just reviewed the replay of your involvement with the #05 (laps 103-109).

At no point prior to the #15 car passing the #05 were you close enough to attempt a pass. There was no wrongdoing on the #05's part, and frankly I'm surprised you chose to make a fuss over this one. For most of the time you were at least a half second back.

Replay is here (also includes the #06/#15 incident).

Jaysus.... I should stop writing on this forums altogether. Half a second is close enough to me... I don't want to have to take RISK to overtake a friggin' lapped car.

And where did I say anything about braking??? Just lift a little before entering a corner, brake 10 meter before you normally do and keep a wide line, that's all. I never said anything about going of your line and braking on the straight....

As for the hotlappers mentality... I clearly don't have that! I was very patient and being hold up from lap 103 - 109 (6 laps!) A hotlapper would have simply put his car on the inside and rammed the lapped car off the track (I saw this happen during this race as well). I didn't do any of that.

I'm not making a fuzz, it's just rediculous that a lapped car can legally hold off a faster car for more then 1 lap without making any atempt to give room. The FIA rules imply they need to do so at the first possibility.

Anyway, apart from those small things I had a great race and enjoyed it a lot. I'm looking forward to next race... there will unfortunately always be things like this. I just dislike the attitude of some of the lapped drivers here who are taking on a victim role and make all the faster drivers sound like megalomaniac hotlappers with no respect for other racers.

Fine with me... if you want me to bump you of the track next time I have to lap you I will not hesitate to take the risk. I prefer being a clean driver though and not having to fall back to tactics like that....

Quote from Dimitry Gerards :

Fine with me... if you want me to bump you of the track next time I have to lap you I will not hesitate to take the risk. I prefer being a clean driver though and not having to fall back to tactics like that....

Dimitry, I hope this is completely in jest. I would hate to lodge an objection to you participating BEFORE the next race starts. Such blatant and willing threats of intent to wreck shouldn't be taken lightly by any admin.

1) it wasn't 6 laps, you got past him by 108.
2) For the better part of those 5 laps, you weren't even close, so he had no way to give up that position without slowing signfigantly.
3) You did eventually pass him properly, but it wasn't until then, that you were anywhere close to even make the pass.

Quote from SamH :

Dimitry, I hope this is completely in jest. I would hate to lodge an objection to you participating BEFORE the next race starts. Such blatant and willing threats of intent to wreck shouldn't be taken lightly by any admin.

Of course I wouldn't do that.... I was being ironic.

Quote from Dimitry Gerards :

Of course I wouldn't do that.... I was being ironic.

Thank goodness for that. I have to say that your approach to the whole thing does seem rather contrary to the spirit of the rules. I'm assuming you did agree to abide by the rules before round 1, yeah? [edit] ignore that.. participation is itself an agreement to abide by the rules

Quote from Dimitry Gerards :

Jaysus.... I should stop writing on this forums altogether. Half a second is close enough to me... I don't want to have to take RISK to overtake a friggin' lapped car.

As for the hotlappers mentality... I clearly don't have that! I was very patient and being hold up from lap 103 - 109 (6 laps!) A hotlapper would have simply put his car on the inside and rammed the lapped car off the track (I saw this happen during this race as well). I didn't do any of that.

I'm not making a fuzz, it's just rediculous that a lapped car can legally hold off a faster car for more then 1 lap without making any atempt to give room. The FIA rules imply they need to do so at the first possibility.

There's no great risk involved in getting up to the bumper of the car ahead. In my opinion, you need to show the lapped car your nose if you want to be given a free pass to go by. Hanging out a few hundred meters behind his bumper isn't enough. He would have to let off substantially to let you by, given how far back you were.

From what I saw, the #05 was not holding you off, he was minding his own business and driving his line. You were reluctant/afraid to approach him.

This seems to be mainly a difference in POV, but the position above is the position of the admin team on the matter.

Quote :

Anyway, apart from those small things I had a great race and enjoyed it a lot. I'm looking forward to next race... there will unfortunately always be things like this. I just dislike the attitude of some of the lapped drivers here who are taking on a victim role and make all the faster drivers sound like megalomaniac hotlappers with no respect for other racers.

Fine with me... if you want me to bump you of the track next time I have to lap you I will not hesitate to take the risk. I prefer being a clean driver though and not having to fall back to tactics like that....

I'm glad you enjoyed the race, and I'm glad you're a part of the league. However, as I'm sure you're aware, there's a difference between applying some pressure to a lapped car (what you need to do) and bumping a lapped car (what you must not do).

I appreciate you being cautious, but you have to show some intent to pass to communicate to the car you're lapping.

Ok I saw the replay again and I over-reacted. At the time I was driving and andrenaline is flowing you see things differently

Let's forget about it and move on.

Okay, I'm glad that's settled. I know how the adrenaline can make me react to things.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

There's no great risk involved in getting up to the bumper of the car ahead. In my opinion, you need to show the lapped car your nose if you want to be given a free pass to go by. Hanging out a few hundred meters behind his bumper isn't enough. He would have to let off substantially to let you by, given how far back you were.

i did just that.. showed my nose but still blocked..

2 examples

car 17 lap 25
car 26 lap 194

majority of others were ok..