and in LFS there's no snow.
case closed!
case closed!
TC is for lame people. 
Well it's ok in F1 but otherwise.
I just hate that feeling when electronic components try to do their own stuff while I'm driving.
And cars like XRT etc seems to be from years when cars didn't usually have TC or any other driving terrors.
Well it's ok in F1 but otherwise.I just hate that feeling when electronic components try to do their own stuff while I'm driving.
And cars like XRT etc seems to be from years when cars didn't usually have TC or any other driving terrors.
+1
When the seatbelt laws came in some tests were done in Holland. They got the test candidates to drive a course with and without seatbelts.
With a seatbelt on, EVERYONE pushed harder and faster, used the brakes later.
All the modern assists they put in road cars are to help people that do not understand that a car loses grip and what happens after it does. Trouble is all these assists make the same people even more of a risk on the road because it makes them feel safter.
Take away ABS and people won't push as hard because they know there is a risk of wheel lockup.
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That said, LFS is about driving skill. Why do people want to change it to who has the computer assists configured the best?
Traction control does nothing a human being can't do. If some twat can't get up a snowy hill without electronic aids, then they shouldn't be driving at all in those conditions. Just use less throttle, more clutch slip, or even a higher gear to give less torque multiplication.
I agree that there should be no TC on LFS, except if it was a very limiting version of the same, since there is no "perfect" TC system that can get to the limit as good as a human being can (as being proven this pre-season of F1), so it would make turning/applying throttle while turning slower than it's manual counterpart.
Then again, considering the hypothetical age of the cars on LFS, it would feel silly that they had it, specially, as pointed out by tristan, it's a simulator where you need to show skill (meaning there are no driving aids, so everyone is on the same level for competing purposes) and there's no physical risk on the driver's side.
It would be nice if the devs would get hold of another F1 from the 2008 season, without TC, not only for comparation but also for the fun of learning how to handle over 500HP without assists.
So, if it was a matter of casting a vote, mine would be a 'no', specially minding Woz's post, and keeping in mind that people who finds controlling current cars hard either has no car or is too used to drive with all those electronic and mechanical aids, which actually influences people's point of view.
Nice thread, by the way :]
Then again, considering the hypothetical age of the cars on LFS, it would feel silly that they had it, specially, as pointed out by tristan, it's a simulator where you need to show skill (meaning there are no driving aids, so everyone is on the same level for competing purposes) and there's no physical risk on the driver's side.
It would be nice if the devs would get hold of another F1 from the 2008 season, without TC, not only for comparation but also for the fun of learning how to handle over 500HP without assists.
So, if it was a matter of casting a vote, mine would be a 'no', specially minding Woz's post, and keeping in mind that people who finds controlling current cars hard either has no car or is too used to drive with all those electronic and mechanical aids, which actually influences people's point of view.
Nice thread, by the way :]
Look at the FZ50. Who drives with T/C on in that car?
It'll just slow you down and put an annoying blue light on the dash.
I would always turn the T/C off in my Mini Cooper S if I were going to drive it hard. Very annoying. Enemy of smooth driving.
T/C's even out of F1 this year. I say update the BF1 to 08 and get rid of it altogether. ;]
It'll just slow you down and put an annoying blue light on the dash.
I would always turn the T/C off in my Mini Cooper S if I were going to drive it hard. Very annoying. Enemy of smooth driving.
T/C's even out of F1 this year. I say update the BF1 to 08 and get rid of it altogether. ;]
Not really. A human being cannot continuously modulate throttle to the right and left front tires in different amounts, OR apply the brakes individually to each tire. You seem to be stuck on the idea that no system is better than a human, but that is simply not the case. The fact of the matter is that even the best driver in the world will have a much easier time getting a FWD car up a steep, snowy/icy hill WITH traction control than without it. I agree that people should be able to drive safely without these systems, but they are nonetheless useful in everyday situations even for those people who CAN drive.
At the very least, there's nothing wrong with a system that makes it that much easier for you to accelerate on a snowy road without having to fight with the throttle and steering. Obviously in LFS people enjoy this challenge, but the fact remains that in most cars in real life, these systems are not only present, but successfully reduce the number of accidents on our roads. A Subaru with VDC can be put through a much more aggressive series of evasive maneuvers than one without this system. Period.
To quote Jeremy Clarkson, "This system can make any driver look like Michael Schumacher."
Almost every keyboard has a button "O".
My keybOard has nO "O" buttOn, mister
Will try, thanks for the info
On the other side, the point of my sentence was to allow people to drive a car that has been built to take advantage of TC and compare it to one built around the idea that TC might not be present, as both are made around that idea (not exclusively, but it TC used to be an important piece of technology on F1 last years to give it enough importance) of 'being made to comply with the rules - yet minimizing the drawbacks of rule changes'.
As a matter of a fact, this season's F1 cars have been faster on the pre-season trainings, and crashes/running out of the track were not as common as many people thought it might be.
Cheers :]
Bear in mind not all traction controls were created equal... cheap ones can be more of a hinderance when you know what you're doing.
I have to ask, what has driving in the snow on roads got to do with racing.
I think you are overstating that TC is present on MOST cars a huge amount. If you look at spec sheets for various manufacturers you will find that VERY few come with TC and most of those will be optional extras.
Just noticed you are from the US, the place that let a moron take McD to court when she burnt herself by putting a hot coffee cup between her legs. So car makers might fit more TC to minimse the risk of court cases
(Not a US bash, apart from your legal sytem that is )And this is why it has no place in LFS, a game of driving skill not throwing a car into a corner and letting TC take care of the problem
A spin off of Stang stating that most cars today have TC thus LFS cars should have it, and Tristan flaming that it shouldn't be needed because if you can't move yourself when you barely are touching the throttle and the tires are spinning, you are a moron.
I think TC being present on the BF1 is a good thing, because it lets people new to the game get used to driving that car at those speeds, taking corners comfortably etc. and generally makes it easier for them. Then, when they're comfortable with that, they can start playing without it and getting used to managing the throttle coming out of slower corners and obviously starting from standing on the grid and in the pits.
I think that if a car is put into the game and it would have TC and other aids outside of the game, then it should have them in the game if someone wants to drive the car in as realistic a fashion as possible (that is, as close to the real thing) but they should, of course, be able to turn them off.
I'm a big Formula 1 fan and I'm now glad that TC and EBS have been banned because other, lower Formula categories, such as Formula Renault, Formula 3, GP2 etc. don't have these aids, so why should they be in F1? Especially when you consider the fact that these drivers are considered to be amongst the best in the world...
Slightly off-topic with that last part, but I think my point has been made clear here.
I think that if a car is put into the game and it would have TC and other aids outside of the game, then it should have them in the game if someone wants to drive the car in as realistic a fashion as possible (that is, as close to the real thing) but they should, of course, be able to turn them off.
I'm a big Formula 1 fan and I'm now glad that TC and EBS have been banned because other, lower Formula categories, such as Formula Renault, Formula 3, GP2 etc. don't have these aids, so why should they be in F1? Especially when you consider the fact that these drivers are considered to be amongst the best in the world...
Slightly off-topic with that last part, but I think my point has been made clear here.
I think the US perspective mentioned is an important one. I suspect TC is far more common over in the states than it is here in Europe. Since the LFS cars are blatantly European or Japenese, it is logical that they should be without TC.
I also agree that driving standards on the roads are appalling (myself not excluded either), but that's a way off-topic rant for another time.
I also agree that driving standards on the roads are appalling (myself not excluded either), but that's a way off-topic rant for another time.
TC doesn't make you fast, instead it is a guarantee that you lose seconds in a laptime if using it. However, it stabilizes the car and thus makes it easier for freshstarters.
I agree: It is not for racing.
I agree: It is not for racing.
That's definitely true, which is why I thought it would be good if it only applied to cars that actually have those systems. So the majority of cars on there would still be left without TC anyways, wouldn't they? I like that the cars are realistically represented in LFS, especially when it covers things that other games do not. One example is the pit lane speed limiter, which does feature in the F1 games I play, but is automatically engaged when you hit the pits, so you can't be penalised for speeding.
Another is the penalties - rather than being hit with a rev limiter, you have to take a drive-through or stop and go, which is much better. So yeah, for the sake of realism, TC shouldn't be applied to the cars that shouldn't have it, but should to those that would. In my opinion, of course.
What if TC is an option in setup? Some cars have it as an option, so why can't it be that (An option) in LFS?
Well, same thing to ABS and everything else, but I already know what you are going to say about helping-systems...
Well, same thing to ABS and everything else, but I already know what you are going to say about helping-systems...
I guess that's always something that will come up. I know that when I first started playing racing games, I had every aid I could find turned on. Steering and braking assistance, ABS, automatic gearbox, stability control, virtual racing line etc. but gradually, as I got used to the game, found braking and turning points and so on, I began turning them off one at a time until eventually I cracked it. Now I have only traction control on, on F1 2006, but that's mainly because I am using a PS2 controller rather than wheel and pedals, so it's hard to apply variable pressure on the controls, and there's no way to turn it off globally for the rest of the grid.
On LFS, I do use the TC on the F1.06 because I'm playing with a keyboard. I have most of the other cars sorted, the only one I can't really drive around a circuit without spinning in is the FO8, but I'm sure that will be a thing of the past when I find a wheel that will work with my computer.
Braking & steering assistance in F1 2006 is a joke. It does ALL the braking for you and ALL the steering, and you could get round a track full throttle with ease.
Really? I haven't used them on F1 2006. I haven't had to use any aids for a long time now, but when I first started out (F1 '98), I tried the game without them and it was frustrating because I'd be off the track more than I was on it. And back then, you weren't shown your braking and acceleration areas, or even your turn-in points. You just had to learn that.
Without aids being there, I doubt I would've continued to be interested in the games after that. I'd just have stuck to watching the races on television. They were exciting, especially with Murray Walker commentating!
That was in response to tristan's post.
I just looked up major cars sold by major manufacturers in the US, and EVERY car I looked up is listed below (so I didn't omit any just because they DIDN'T have traction control.)
- As a Subaru owner, I know all Subaru models have VDC as either standard or optional.
- Ford Tarus has AdvanceTrak
- Chevrolet Malibu, Saturn Aura have StabiliTrak
- Toyota Camry has "Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) with Traction Control (TRAC)"
- Honda Civic has a traction control system (dunno what it's called)
- Infinitis have VDC and TCM
- Dodge Avenger has ESP
No, the argument was that it should be AVAILABLE in cars in LFS if it would be in real life. You can always turn it off - and you could even implement a system that does not allow use of traction control in races if you didn't want to - which I would fully support, as I am against use of TC in a race as well. The point is that LFS gives cars the features they'd have in real life, be it a roll-cage, ABS, adjustable downforce, OR TRACTION CONTROL. I would never use it - but the argument here is that it should be available.
I get the feel the US market is very different than places like the UK. From what I know a high proportion of cars sold are auto where as most in the UK are manual and TC is far less common or an optional extra.
The NZ market is different again in that most cars we get as most are imports from Japan and most are auto. I laugh at the young hoons in their auto WRX, why get a car like that with a slush box
Considering how bad most US manufactured cars are at handling, is it any wonder many of them come with TC as standard!?
No TC on my 325i E30.... thankfully
Auto WRXs!? hah... that's just comical!
Regards,
Ian
No TC on my 325i E30.... thankfully
Auto WRXs!? hah... that's just comical!
Regards,
Ian
While cars in real life are messed up by all sort of laws and marketing preferences, in LFS lets keep it simple and to the point.
Why add something that for most of us do nothing but damage our enjoyment in the driving experience.
Why add something that for most of us do nothing but damage our enjoyment in the driving experience.
It's not just American cars though... they ALL have it (this INCLUDES Audis, BMWs, Mercedes, etc...) My dad's last two AWD Audis have both had traction control.
Traction Control
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