I'll take a look at those. But yes, there were quite a few incidents where there was inappropriate blocking, and it's something we want to address.
I'll take a look at those. But yes, there were quite a few incidents where there was inappropriate blocking, and it's something we want to address.
As for the potential rules revisions:
Lapped Car must drive normal racing line/pace. No defensive manouvers. Must yield position to lapping car upon first overtaking manouver.
Lapping Car must present overtaking manouver to signal Lapped Car to yield.
Something along those line would make it appropriate for lapped cars to continue their own race, but yield when the lapping car is in position to pass.
Strong pentalties for contact or defensive manouvers against a lapping car.
That's my take on it, thoughts?
Lapped Car must drive normal racing line/pace. No defensive manouvers. Must yield position to lapping car upon first overtaking manouver.
Lapping Car must present overtaking manouver to signal Lapped Car to yield.
Something along those line would make it appropriate for lapped cars to continue their own race, but yield when the lapping car is in position to pass.
Strong pentalties for contact or defensive manouvers against a lapping car.
That's my take on it, thoughts?
I like that. Thats clear and concise and exactly the rule.
On CD servers we use:
Blue Flag:
One or more competitors are about to lap you. You must hold your course and allow them to pass UNIMPEDED. You must make sure you change speed and leave room to be passed.
UNIMPEDED is the important word
Now you have said:
"normal pace. Must yield", but these cannot both be done at the same time (IMO)
Normal pace means race as normal
And to yield would mean to "change speed and leave room to be passed" as in our rules.
Just to be clear, in round 1 cars were held up by slower cars and its not that easy to pass with pretty matched cars.
Your new rule either has to be very open as it is now and everyone will argue after each race or its made very clear and concise so there can be no argument whatsoever.
If you can come up with a good blue flag rule maybe it will become the standard for other servers and series.
I don't like the "change speed" part of your suggestion, Birder. Once a lapper shows a nose (say, approaching a corner), braking a bit early or taking a wide line to let them through is a preferable solution, IMO.
Yea, the natural inclination and motivation for me to drift to the right is that the grass was looming on the left but then, according to #15 I should probably have taken to that so that he could get his car, that is obviously as wide as a house, safely past. It amazes me that, given that he was past me anyhow, why he felt the inclination to run me off the road. To get a drive through for such an incident is pathetic given that we were so badly damaged we had to pit for repairs which mean't that we paid the punishment for his bad judgement. He then confirms his bad attitude (or is it just ignorance of the rules) by saying here that all lapped drivers should instantly hop out of the way when being lapped.
QUOTE - "lol so its my fault that blue flag drivers dont slow down they try to race me down the straight?? right...."
Don't have to slow down - you were in front anyhow when you took me out, ignorance of the rules once again
"blue flag is a joke so many people do not give way.. the expect YOU to go around them.. thats not how it works"
That is how it works, they are allowed to stick to their line. I eased off the throttle to allow you to pass but once you were past you couldn't resist your utter contempt for back-markers and decided to push me off, no need whatsoever.
I would suggest it was both and given his posts it seems to me they are a confirmation of his intent. A black flag would have been a more fitting penalty but a drive through and a subsequent win? What's going on here? Is money exchanging hands ?
It's a load of fun being accused of corruption from both sides, I've got to tell you.
right.. we paid them to let us win $300 i paid into their paypal
i saw places where cars were also not sent to back of line.. car 14 went off track under safety car once
and also 07 car went off under safety car BUT did they get sent back? no
did we? sure did.
so my $300 bucks didnt work did it
They obviously paid more than you ...
This is turning into a load of crap. I think the admins just don't want to deal with people fighting them even more when they penalize them.
Nahh.. I doubt very much any of the admins are scared of making an admin decision. There's no rush to make a call, now.. better to take some time and make a good call. Admins can't be pushed or bullied into choosing one way or the other faster than they choose. They're admins and far above that. 
Relax and wait
Let's quote up:
Whatever anyone believes the rule should be, slowing on a straight is at the discretion of the car being lapped. Maintaining the normal racing line is expected of the car being lapped.
Anyone who drove in a fashion contrary to the accepted rules, as detailed here, is in breach of the series rules. You were required to read and agree to abide by these rules. Your participation in the league is indication that you have done so.
Complaining that the rules aren't right for Round 1, at THIS point, is out of order. Accept the admin decisions for Round 1, whether you agree with the decisions or not, and if necessary bite your lip. For Round 2, propose your changes and identify your loopholes, but forget contesting them for rulings on Round 1. If you had an issue with the Blue Flag rule when you read the rules that you were agreeing to, you should have said so before the first round. Raise the matter specifically for Round 2 onwards.
That's the rule and you already agreed to it, because you drove in Round 1. Pucker up, buttercup, we're off to Round 2.
Relax and wait
Let's quote up:
Whatever anyone believes the rule should be, slowing on a straight is at the discretion of the car being lapped. Maintaining the normal racing line is expected of the car being lapped.
Anyone who drove in a fashion contrary to the accepted rules, as detailed here, is in breach of the series rules. You were required to read and agree to abide by these rules. Your participation in the league is indication that you have done so.
Complaining that the rules aren't right for Round 1, at THIS point, is out of order. Accept the admin decisions for Round 1, whether you agree with the decisions or not, and if necessary bite your lip. For Round 2, propose your changes and identify your loopholes, but forget contesting them for rulings on Round 1. If you had an issue with the Blue Flag rule when you read the rules that you were agreeing to, you should have said so before the first round. Raise the matter specifically for Round 2 onwards.
That's the rule and you already agreed to it, because you drove in Round 1. Pucker up, buttercup, we're off to Round 2.
I need to mention a some stuff that I noticed while watching the race concerning lapping traffic.
I mostly saw good behaviour even though some lapped cars were being a little over zealous about trying to get out of the way.
I did see several cars, and I won't point out names here, that consistently held up faster cars for laps at a time. There were cases where the faster car was having trouble getting along side to make the pass. But, I could also see the faster car being held up in the corners and getting a bad launch off the corner and not being able to move alongside on the straight.
This is a two part problem. First, the faster driver needs to back off and work on his timing to leave the corner with enough speed to move alongside on the straight... or at least make it apparent that they are in position to move by.
Secondly, the lapped car needs to recognize when he is holding up another car. You may think you are maintaining a gap, but it is really an accordion and you are holding up faster traffic. Make provisions for this and although you shouldn't "roll over and die", be aware of good places to slow up for just a half second to let the faster car past.
I also saw on several occasions slower cars actively defending their position for several laps. At about the time I was going to recommend a warning or penalty, they would get passed, so no penalty during the race occurred. I actually saw several cars chop down on lapping traffic actually causing contact in mid corner.
All I can say about that is to pay attention. The corners are the best place to make a solid pass happen that does not cost much time to either driver. Be aware and know where the other car is. The lapping car must be aware and in position to take advantage when a lapped car "squares up" a corner so that you can get by. But also be aware that some corners are not good places to quickly get by. You must respect the race of the lapped cars too.
If lapped cars continue to fight faster traffic, it will not be good for any of us. It will lead to more contact (potentially semi-intentionally out of frustration) and more wrecked cars. It will make our jobs as Admins more difficult and time consuming.
We all know that the LFS blue flag system is not perfect. You must rely on your team to keep you informed on where each car behind you is in the standings and if you are fighting them for position or to perhaps keep from getting lapped. If not, work with the lapping traffic to make the pass happen where it costs both of you the least time. Remember, .1 second lost letting a lapping car past is much better than getting punted after holding that car up for 3 laps. It would hopefully be unintentional punting, but even if it isn't and the other car gets a penalty, you still got punted and had to pit for repairs or get pulled out of the sand. Not good for anybody.
I mostly saw good behaviour even though some lapped cars were being a little over zealous about trying to get out of the way.
I did see several cars, and I won't point out names here, that consistently held up faster cars for laps at a time. There were cases where the faster car was having trouble getting along side to make the pass. But, I could also see the faster car being held up in the corners and getting a bad launch off the corner and not being able to move alongside on the straight.
This is a two part problem. First, the faster driver needs to back off and work on his timing to leave the corner with enough speed to move alongside on the straight... or at least make it apparent that they are in position to move by.
Secondly, the lapped car needs to recognize when he is holding up another car. You may think you are maintaining a gap, but it is really an accordion and you are holding up faster traffic. Make provisions for this and although you shouldn't "roll over and die", be aware of good places to slow up for just a half second to let the faster car past.
I also saw on several occasions slower cars actively defending their position for several laps. At about the time I was going to recommend a warning or penalty, they would get passed, so no penalty during the race occurred. I actually saw several cars chop down on lapping traffic actually causing contact in mid corner.
All I can say about that is to pay attention. The corners are the best place to make a solid pass happen that does not cost much time to either driver. Be aware and know where the other car is. The lapping car must be aware and in position to take advantage when a lapped car "squares up" a corner so that you can get by. But also be aware that some corners are not good places to quickly get by. You must respect the race of the lapped cars too.
If lapped cars continue to fight faster traffic, it will not be good for any of us. It will lead to more contact (potentially semi-intentionally out of frustration) and more wrecked cars. It will make our jobs as Admins more difficult and time consuming.
We all know that the LFS blue flag system is not perfect. You must rely on your team to keep you informed on where each car behind you is in the standings and if you are fighting them for position or to perhaps keep from getting lapped. If not, work with the lapping traffic to make the pass happen where it costs both of you the least time. Remember, .1 second lost letting a lapping car past is much better than getting punted after holding that car up for 3 laps. It would hopefully be unintentional punting, but even if it isn't and the other car gets a penalty, you still got punted and had to pit for repairs or get pulled out of the sand. Not good for anybody.
Well said, Eric.
SamH:
Round 1 results have been printed so people cannot do anything about them, and i dont think they are trying but there was clearly problems in this race due to cars being lapped.
Now if the rules are not clarified in a VERY clear and concise manner the same will happen again.
From the replay it took one driver 15 laps to make a 2 second gap on the car behind him which was then lost in 2 corners because of a BACK MARKER who would not let the much faster driver pass UNIMPEDED.
With racing this close and such a difference in pace between the fast guys and the slow ones ther will be a lot of lapping going on, its a bit like racing Kimi is a F1 GP car when others are in a Formula Ford.
If you simply take car #21 in this 198 lap race
6 cars 8 laps ahead = 48 (blue flags)
1 car 7 laps ahead = 7 (blue flags)
2 cars 6 laps ahead = 12 (blue flags)
3 cars 5 laps ahad = 15 (blue flags)
5 cars 4 laps ahead = 20 (blue flags)
1 car 3 laps ahead = 3 (blue flags)
2 cars 2 laps ahead = 4 (blue flags)
Thats 109 blue flags using a rule that is not clear and concise so a potential disaster if its not cleared up.
I am not saying that Car #21 caused any problems at all but showing the potential problems
And lets face facts it will help the slower guys just as much as the fast ones.
If cars in 1st and 2nd place are fighting for the win and after 198 laps the first car is just 0.12 seconds per lap faster then they both may take chances to get the win if they have chance.
If a team joins this series to win, then second is a poor result, if a team joins to take part then the win is not important.
People have said that its the hot lap mentality, well all i can say is to win you may well need to hot lap for all 4 hours.
What you seem to be saying is that its all part of "Racing" which puts over that you should treat every car you catch as being a car fighting for the win and you must try to pass, almost at all costs, which is rather stupid (IMO) when that car could simply move over and let him by.
Everyone is well aware that they can keep a faster car behind them if they so want, its the good drivers that let them go if they are not on the same race pace
If the blue flag rules stay as they are then there will be just the same problems next race and if it is i am not sure some of the faster guys will bother turning up.
If the IGTC is going to grow and attract top teams this needs sorting before round 2.
Round 1 results have been printed so people cannot do anything about them, and i dont think they are trying but there was clearly problems in this race due to cars being lapped.
Now if the rules are not clarified in a VERY clear and concise manner the same will happen again.
From the replay it took one driver 15 laps to make a 2 second gap on the car behind him which was then lost in 2 corners because of a BACK MARKER who would not let the much faster driver pass UNIMPEDED.
With racing this close and such a difference in pace between the fast guys and the slow ones ther will be a lot of lapping going on, its a bit like racing Kimi is a F1 GP car when others are in a Formula Ford.
If you simply take car #21 in this 198 lap race
6 cars 8 laps ahead = 48 (blue flags)
1 car 7 laps ahead = 7 (blue flags)
2 cars 6 laps ahead = 12 (blue flags)
3 cars 5 laps ahad = 15 (blue flags)
5 cars 4 laps ahead = 20 (blue flags)
1 car 3 laps ahead = 3 (blue flags)
2 cars 2 laps ahead = 4 (blue flags)
Thats 109 blue flags using a rule that is not clear and concise so a potential disaster if its not cleared up.
I am not saying that Car #21 caused any problems at all but showing the potential problems
And lets face facts it will help the slower guys just as much as the fast ones.
If cars in 1st and 2nd place are fighting for the win and after 198 laps the first car is just 0.12 seconds per lap faster then they both may take chances to get the win if they have chance.
If a team joins this series to win, then second is a poor result, if a team joins to take part then the win is not important.
People have said that its the hot lap mentality, well all i can say is to win you may well need to hot lap for all 4 hours.
What you seem to be saying is that its all part of "Racing" which puts over that you should treat every car you catch as being a car fighting for the win and you must try to pass, almost at all costs, which is rather stupid (IMO) when that car could simply move over and let him by.
Everyone is well aware that they can keep a faster car behind them if they so want, its the good drivers that let them go if they are not on the same race pace
If the blue flag rules stay as they are then there will be just the same problems next race and if it is i am not sure some of the faster guys will bother turning up.
If the IGTC is going to grow and attract top teams this needs sorting before round 2.
Well said, at least someone saw what was happening
When we say that it's part of racing we're not condoning lapped cars holding up lapping cars for no good reason. We're simply stating that sometimes it's not in the lapped cars' best interest to let a lapping car by right away. They might be fighting for position themselves, they might be in a difficult spot on the track, etc etc. We do expect lapped cars to give way to a faster car at the first sign of an attempted pass. We do not expect them to give up on their own race in order to benefit the lapping car.
"Racing" is dealing with the various obstacles that come up in the course of the race and persevering/being quick anyway.
This is getting silly.
You cannot expect to drive with that hot lap mentality in an endurance race with 28+ other cars on track. Everyone is competing, whether its for first or twenty first. You have to accept that occasionally you are going to be slightly inconvenienced at times during the race.
That's racing for you, i suggest you watch some real endurance racing sometime.
I'm not saying its ever right to be held up for over a lap by backmarkers though.
I doubt they will be missed if they can't understand how racing actually works.
Kudos and amen to this.
There are Plenty of series already out there with the "get outta my way n00b!" rules in play.
If you're fast enough to catch a back-marker repeatedly only to get stuck behind mid-corner, then you really ought to work on timing. If you can't cleanly time a pass (actually merely present a nose) on a car (slower than your own) then I don't see why they should roll over and play dead when it's obvious that you're the one in need of more racecraft.
Just for the record I have taken part in real endurance racing but as i dont race in this series myself i will say no more.
However saying you dont want the faster teams to take part is rather strange
I don't think anyone wants the faster cars out of the series.
Blue flag behavior is something that people on both "sides" of the issue get very passionate about and sometimes implications are slung about that neither side really means.
I'd appreciate it if we can all take it down a notch in here.
Blue flag behavior is something that people on both "sides" of the issue get very passionate about and sometimes implications are slung about that neither side really means.
I'd appreciate it if we can all take it down a notch in here.
He didn't say anything about not wanting the faster teams to compete, he said that no one is going to miss fast drivers that don't actually know how to race, which I completely agree with. There are plenty of fast guys out there(not specifically referring to this series, just in general) that do not know how to handle lapped traffic and that's completely their own fault.
Edit: was already in the process of typing this before I saw DWB's post, was just adding my two cents
I'm not sure where this "hot lap mentality" and "roll over and die" etc. are coming from and it's IMO being exaggerated.
I agree with Birder that you do need to have hot lap mentality. Maybe it's a wrong choice of words. We could say "You need to keep pushing" instead. I've done plenty endu races now, and we've (in the team) been saying several times "oh, X hours... pleeeenty of time" but then realize that, nopes.. you need to push all the way. But it doesn't mean that I/we expect anyone to drop dead.
This isn't a pro get-out-of-the-way comment, but I don't like seeing "hot lap mentality", "roll over and die" etc. being used in the way that it is because IMO I haven't truely seen anyone express such opinion either on or off the track.
At the heat of the moment, ppl can get upset etc, but that doesn't mean anything - sometimes you are ok with it and sometimes not. Depends allot on the situation.
I agree with Birder that you do need to have hot lap mentality. Maybe it's a wrong choice of words. We could say "You need to keep pushing" instead. I've done plenty endu races now, and we've (in the team) been saying several times "oh, X hours... pleeeenty of time" but then realize that, nopes.. you need to push all the way. But it doesn't mean that I/we expect anyone to drop dead.
This isn't a pro get-out-of-the-way comment, but I don't like seeing "hot lap mentality", "roll over and die" etc. being used in the way that it is because IMO I haven't truely seen anyone express such opinion either on or off the track.
At the heat of the moment, ppl can get upset etc, but that doesn't mean anything - sometimes you are ok with it and sometimes not. Depends allot on the situation.
Funny how the faster drivers moan about the slower drivers, and vice versa, I am starting to think the only way to at least come close to solving this issue is to ballast/intake restrict the faster drivers so they don't lap the slower ones...........
Either that or both parties act sensibly, which we know probably isn't going to happen.
It boils down to an ego thing, the slower drivers ego gets hurt because they have to yeld to faster drivers (and probably wish they were as fast, heck, I know I feel it) and the faster drivers ego's get the better of them when a slower driver gets in the way of "their" race.
Bottomline, this will never get sorted, not while there is such a spread of skill levels on the same track, so I emplore the IGTC admins to clarify the rules so that these sorts of disscusions become null and void, because it will go round, and round, and round, you get the idea......
Either that or both parties act sensibly, which we know probably isn't going to happen.
It boils down to an ego thing, the slower drivers ego gets hurt because they have to yeld to faster drivers (and probably wish they were as fast, heck, I know I feel it) and the faster drivers ego's get the better of them when a slower driver gets in the way of "their" race.
Bottomline, this will never get sorted, not while there is such a spread of skill levels on the same track, so I emplore the IGTC admins to clarify the rules so that these sorts of disscusions become null and void, because it will go round, and round, and round, you get the idea......
I said i would not post but just had to say well said
+1
I didn't say that at any point.
Round 1: Post-Race Discussion
(156 posts, started )
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