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New York Times
(78 posts, started )
New York Times
Thought I'd better avoid the article title before I cop more anti-american abuse.

It is a NYT article though and if it's read with an open mind it's certainly interesting, not only for america but also as a part of the whole direction society worldwide seems to be heading.

The following paragraph I feel highlights an interesting trend that several threads here have tended to lean towards.

"But now, Ms. Jacoby said, something different is happening: anti-intellectualism (the attitude that "too much learning can be a dangerous thing") and anti-rationalism ("the idea that there is no such things as evidence or fact, just opinion") have fused in a particularly insidious way."

Anyway, don't bother abusing me for this as it's not a statement of fact, just an interesting opinion.



Dumb and Dumber: Are Americans Hostile to Knowledge?
By Patricia Cohen
The New York Times

Thursday 14 February 2008

A popular video on YouTube shows Kellie Pickler, the adorable platinum blonde from "American Idol," appearing on the Fox game show "Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?" during celebrity week. Selected from a third-grade geography curriculum, the $25,000 question asked: "Budapest is the capital of what European country?"

Ms. Pickler threw up both hands and looked at the large blackboard perplexed. "I thought Europe was a country," she said. Playing it safe, she chose to copy the answer offered by one of the genuine fifth graders: Hungary. "Hungry?" she said, eyes widening in disbelief. "That's a country? I've heard of Turkey. But Hungry? I've never heard of it."

Such, uh, lack of global awareness is the kind of thing that drives Susan Jacoby, author of "The Age of American Unreason," up a wall. Ms. Jacoby is one of a number of writers with new books that bemoan the state of American culture.

Joining the circle of curmudgeons this season is Eric G. Wilson, whose "Against Happiness" warns that the "American obsession with happiness" could "well lead to a sudden extinction of the creative impulse, that could result in an extermination as horrible as those foreshadowed by global warming and environmental crisis and nuclear proliferation."

Then there is Lee Siegel's "Against the Machine: Being Human in the Age of the Electronic Mob," which inveighs against the Internet for encouraging solipsism, debased discourse and arrant commercialization. Mr. Siegel, one might remember, was suspended by The New Republic for using a fake online persona in order to trash critics of his blog ("you couldn't tie Siegel's shoelaces") and to praise himself ("brave, brilliant").

Ms. Jacoby, whose book came out on Tuesday, doesn't zero in on a particular technology or emotion, but rather on what she feels is a generalized hostility to knowledge. She is well aware that some may tag her a crank. "I expect to get bashed," said Ms. Jacoby, 62, either as an older person who upbraids the young for plummeting standards and values, or as a secularist whose defense of scientific rationalism is a way to disparage religion.

Ms. Jacoby, however, is quick to point out that her indictment is not limited by age or ideology. Yes, she knows that eggheads, nerds, bookworms, longhairs, pointy heads, highbrows and know-it-alls have been mocked and dismissed throughout American history. And liberal and conservative writers, from Richard Hofstadter to Allan Bloom, have regularly analyzed the phenomenon and offered advice.

T. J. Jackson Lears, a cultural historian who edits the quarterly review Raritan, said, "The tendency to this sort of lamentation is perennial in American history," adding that in periods "when political problems seem intractable or somehow frozen, there is a turn toward cultural issues."

But now, Ms. Jacoby said, something different is happening: anti-intellectualism (the attitude that "too much learning can be a dangerous thing") and anti-rationalism ("the idea that there is no such things as evidence or fact, just opinion") have fused in a particularly insidious way.

Not only are citizens ignorant about essential scientific, civic and cultural knowledge, she said, but they also don't think it matters.

She pointed to a 2006 National Geographic poll that found nearly half of 18- to 24-year-olds don't think it is necessary or important to know where countries in the news are located. So more than three years into the Iraq war, only 23 percent of those with some college could locate Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Israel on a map.

Ms. Jacoby, dressed in a bright red turtleneck with lipstick to match, was sitting, appropriately, in that temple of knowledge, the New York Public Library's majestic Beaux Arts building on Fifth Avenue. The author of seven other books, she was a fellow at the library when she first got the idea for this book back in 2001, on 9/11.

Walking home to her Upper East Side apartment, she said, overwhelmed and confused, she stopped at a bar. As she sipped her bloody mary, she quietly listened to two men, neatly dressed in suits. For a second she thought they were going to compare that day's horrifying attack to the Japanese bombing in 1941 that blew America into World War II:

"This is just like Pearl Harbor," one of the men said.

The other asked, "What is Pearl Harbor?"

"That was when the Vietnamese dropped bombs in a harbor, and it started the Vietnam War," the first man replied.

At that moment, Ms. Jacoby said, "I decided to write this book."

Ms. Jacoby doesn't expect to revolutionize the nation's educational system or cause millions of Americans to switch off "American Idol" and pick up Schopenhauer. But she would like to start a conversation about why the United States seems particularly vulnerable to such a virulent strain of anti-intellectualism. After all, "the empire of infotainment doesn't stop at the American border," she said, yet students in many other countries consistently outperform American students in science, math and reading on comparative tests.

In part, she lays the blame on a failing educational system. "Although people are going to school more and more years, there's no evidence that they know more," she said.

Ms. Jacoby also blames religious fundamentalism's antipathy toward science, as she grieves over surveys that show that nearly two-thirds of Americans want creationism to be taught along with evolution.

Ms. Jacoby doesn't leave liberals out of her analysis, mentioning the New Left's attacks on universities in the 1960s, the decision to consign African-American and women's studies to an "academic ghetto" instead of integrating them into the core curriculum, ponderous musings on rock music and pop culture courses on everything from sitcoms to fat that trivialize college-level learning.

Avoiding the liberal or conservative label in this particular argument, she prefers to call herself a "cultural conservationist."

For all her scholarly interests, though, Ms. Jacoby said she recognized just how hard it is to tune out the 24/7 entertainment culture. A few years ago she participated in the annual campaign to turn off the television for a week. "I was stunned at how difficult it was for me," she said.

The surprise at her own dependency on electronic and visual media made her realize just how pervasive the culture of distraction is and how susceptible everyone is - even curmudgeons.
What motivates you to copy and paste articles into posts on the LFS forum?
Haha yea I heard about this, I think these game shows intentionally put dumb people on to give the audience a laugh.
Seriously though, America doesn't have a good image anymore because people are getting dumber (not really their fault, they're a product of the education system, which is getting easier all the time). Also, having a president who can't string more than 3 words together without making serious grammatical or spelling mistakes doesn't help.
#4 - Vain
Quote from wheel4hummer :What motivates you to copy and paste articles into posts on the LFS forum?

Very likely the concept that controversial ideas should be discussed between humans to extract a clearer view of the truth from the joint intellectual horizon.

Regarding the article I can imagin to agree to a few core-points. However I can't say I'm an expert on americans since I'm not one of them. I believe in the concept of in dubio pro reo and thus will not accept a negative view on a group of people I don't know well enough to be entitled to such an opinion.

Vain
Quote :"This is just like Pearl Harbor," one of the men said.

The other asked, "What is Pearl Harbor?"

"That was when the Vietnamese dropped bombs in a harbor, and it started the Vietnam War," the first man replied.

:ices_rofl
And this is the same newspaper that published a libelious article on John McCain about his "affair" with a lobbyist just to distract people from Hilary Clinton. -_-

Ah you got to love American liberals...you cant find anyone else who hates America more
just about a week ago i read something similar in our local newspaper... it was a bit more specific about math and it mentioned how in some educational backgrounds its considered to be the norm to be bad at math or rather you often get the feel that youre an outsider if you arent

luckily while the number of people able to do basic math is declining rapidly in this country that got its place in the world economy through good engineering the willingness to accept fairy tales as the truth hasnt increased much (... yet)

Quote from lizardfolk :Ah you got to love American liberals...you cant find anyone else who hates America more

odd i seem to remeber that you claimed to not be a redneck despite your love for stock car racing
I saw that episode, and I feel bad for her, because she looked like a fool.

There is a worse show though, it's call "Moment of Truth." They hook people up to lie detectors and ask them really personal questions. If you are truthful then you get a million dollars. One question was "If your ex-boyfriend wanted to get back together with you would you get a divorce?" Apparently the husband divorced his wife after the show because she says she would get a divorce for her ex. It's terrible, the show seems like it was meant to rip relationships to shreds.
#9 - MR_B
Quote from Rappa Z :I saw that episode, and I feel bad for her, because she looked like a fool.

There is a worse show though, it's call "Moment of Truth." They hook people up to lie detectors and ask them really personal questions. If you are truthful then you get a million dollars. One question was "If your ex-boyfriend wanted to get back together with you would you get a divorce?" Apparently the husband divorced his wife after the show because she says she would get a divorce for her ex. It's terrible, the show seems like it was meant to rip relationships to shreds.

Well perhaps they deserved it for going on such a rediculous show?
Quote from lizardfolk :And this is the same newspaper that published a libelious article on John McCain about his "affair" with a lobbyist just to distract people from Hilary Clinton. -_-

Ah you got to love American liberals...you cant find anyone else who hates America more

Uhh...
Quote from Shotglass :


odd i seem to remeber that you claimed to not be a redneck despite your love for stock car racing

Except that I'm not. I hate extreme liberals (the NY Times) but I also hate extreme conservatives (fundamentalist evangelicals). I'll give you an example: I'm pro environment and pro choice (abortion issue). That in itself would make me an outcast in the conservative's camp. Now...I'm also pro federal restraint/discipline (larger government), and i dont like socialism programs (in my opinion they dont work, at least not the way Clinton/Obama are trying to do) and that would make me an outcast of the liberal camp. Therefore I'm moderate.

BTW stock cars does not = redneck. NASCAR = redneck (even though only 20 or so drivers are from the south while the other 50+ are yanks and foreigners). ARCA is as far from redneck as stock car racing can get and it's mainly what I watch

Quote from DeadWolfBones :Uhh...

I'm assuming that you've never heard the liberal theory that everything's a conspiracy including the moon landing and 9/11? It's good to be open minded about what the government can and DID do in the past, but to jump on every crisis that it's all "american government's" fault is anti productive. Plus didn't you ever listen to Sean Penn and Johnny Depp's anti American rants?
Quote from lizardfolk :
BTW stock cars does not = redneck. NASCAR = redneck (even though only 20 or so drivers are from the south while the other 50+ are yanks and foreigners). ARCA is as far from redneck as stock car racing can get

I'd be embarrassed
Quote from Falcon140 :Does that make sense in your head? If so, you should see a doctor, because ARCA, is a NASCAR series. I'd be embarrassed.

Quote :"Automobile Racing Club of America (ARCA) is an auto racing sanctioning body in the United States founded in 1953 by John Marcum. It was founded in the Midwest and has a large fan base there. The current president of ARCA is Ron Drager. ARCA (aka the ARCA RE/MAX Series) races stock cars similar to those seen in the NASCAR Nationwide Series, and indeed most cars used in ARCA were previously used in NASCAR. ARCA's competitors contain a mix of both professional racers as well as hobby racers alike, in addition to younger competitors trying to make a name for themselves, sometimes driving as part of a driver development program for a NASCAR team."

"Marcum founded the Midwest Association for Race Cars (MARC) in 1952, and in 1964 the name was changed to the Automobile Racing Club of America. This is not to be confused with the organization founded in 1933 with the same name (now known as the Sports Car Club of America)."

just because they use similar cars doesn't mean they are governed by the same body. NASCAR is a southern thing while ARCA started out in the Midwest.

USAR is not NASCAR and ARCA is DEFINATELY not NASCAR. Those three are TOTALLY different series within the same discipline.
Quote from lizardfolk :I'm assuming that you've never heard the liberal theory that everything's a conspiracy including the moon landing and 9/11? It's good to be open minded about what the government can and DID do in the past, but to jump on every crisis that it's all "american government's" fault is anti productive. Plus didn't you ever listen to Sean Penn and Johnny Depp's anti American rants?

I'm not exactly sure what you're babbling about. I think most liberals would be horribly offended to be identified with the wackos who follow Alex Jones et al. Most of them are misguided libertarians and general simpletons.

What a random sampling of celebrities say has very little to do with actual liberal policy, and I suggest that you don't take Depp or Penn or Sarandon or anyone seriously as a political spokesperson.

And to call the NYT "extreme liberal" media is just stupid.

edit: Also, while I agree that it's bad to reactionarily assign blame to America for everything wrong in the world, the fact is that many things wrong in the world right now can be traced back to policies put in place by the American government. The intent likely wasn't for bad things to happen, but they did and it's not anti-American to take responsibility for them.
Also, "redneck" != southern. Redneck = rural. Lots of rural areas in the midwest.
Quote from DeadWolfBones :I'm not exactly sure what you're babbling about. I think most liberals would be horribly offended to be identified with the wackos who follow Alex Jones et al. Most of them are misguided libertarians and general simpletons.

What a random sampling of celebrities say has very little to do with actual liberal policy, and I suggest that you don't take Depp or Penn or Sarandon or anyone seriously as a political spokesperson.

And to call the NYT "extreme liberal" media is just stupid.

Key word: EXTREME. Sean Penn and Johnny Depp both consider themselves extreme liberal and announce it almost daily. When I refer to EXTREME liberals I mean people that aren't liberal because they see an injustice and want change. They are liberal for the heck of it because it's "cool" and "hip" and like to rock the boat as much as possible. OF COURSE NYT is an extreme liberal. Almost all of the media right now is controlled by liberals. FOX is the only exception I can think of right now.

Also, look at Berkeley. Notorious as a place for "extreme" liberals and look at they way they are acting right now

However, I personally have no problems with people who are sincerely liberal and open minded to the world's problems. I'm entitled to my opinion and so are they. I just hate people who use the term "liberal" to define themselves just for the fact that they like to cause trouble.
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(lizardfolk) DELETED by lizardfolk
Quote from DeadWolfBones :Also, "redneck" != southern. Redneck = rural. Lots of rural areas in the midwest.

Quote from wordnet.princeton.edu :Redneck - a poor white person in the southern United States



Slang for rural person can be hillbilly, white trash, or buckteeth. But redneck refers to rural people in the south or from the south
Quote from lizardfolk :and i dont like socialism programs (in my opinion they dont work, at least not the way Clinton/Obama are trying to do) and that would make me an outcast of the liberal camp.

social programs arent liberal

Quote :ARCA is as far from redneck as stock car racing can get

which is about 2cm
or 1/4 hogshead in units you might be more familiar with

Quote :I'm assuming that you've never heard the liberal theory that everything's a conspiracy including the moon landing and 9/11?

that has nothing to do with liberals either

Quote :Plus didn't you ever listen to Sean Penn and Johnny Depp's anti American rants?

which have what exactly to do with the subject at hand?
Quote from Shotglass :social programs arent liberal

Social programs are advocated by liberals in the US.



Quote from Shotglass :that has nothing to do with liberals either

Of course it does. That's a theory that a certain extreme liberal individual (i cant remember who) put out and many of these "extreme" liberals agree to that fact without any real basis.



Quote from Shotglass : which have what exactly to do with the subject at hand?

That they are extreme liberal and they are a representation of the extreme liberal in US. Not liberals in general. But the relatively small but present percentage in the US of extreme liberals

Quote from Shotglass :

which is about 2cm
or 1/4 hogshead in units you might be more familiar with

As if people from the midwest and people from the south are similar :rolleyes:
For "extreme" liberals to exist in the US you first have to have regular, moderate liberals. You really don't. In comparison to Australia, Europe & especially Latin America, America's supposed liberals really only come across to the rest of us in the worlds as "somewhat less conservative than neo-con Republicans". In America you may be moderate or centrist, but America's political climate is weighted so far toward to the right wing you really only qualify as normal old conservative

I find it funny (but not amusing) that FOX, ABCNNBCBS, Washington Post etc. can say basically whatever they want, for years on end, supporting wars & invasions, not asking the questions they should be asking and just taking the Whitehouse's word for it on everything and that's ok, but the minute one paper prints one (most likely wrong, perhaps even knowingly false) article about one Republican candidate, or about the loss of currency that simple intelligence is experiencing in that country, and bam - it's part of some extremist, liberal, America-hating agenda (which is rich coming from the people that fought tooth & nail to impeach Bubba Clinton for a blowjob while Bush Jr walks around scot-free after reaming the Constitution and lying the country into a trillion-dollar war of aggression in violation of the Nuremberg Charter as well Us domestic law!). What about the militarist, Consitution-hating, citizen-spying, suspect-torturing, economy-trashing rightwing agenda that's dominated for 8 years? Yep, thought so. No such thing, right?

What I want to know is: where was hell was this extremist liberal bias when George was blatantly & knowingly lying his arse off about mushroom clouds and yellowcake from Niger and Saddam's supposed links to Osama bin Laden? Bush's own family has stronger links to the bin Ladens than Saddam ever did FFS. It's worth remembering that Osama and Saddam got to where they are purely by US intervention: the CIA trained & equipped Osama and his mujahedin to fight the Soviets in the 80s; the US helped to install and later arm Saddam with WMD (Rumsfeld himself happily shook Saddam's hand shortly before Saddam used his new WMD against Iran - crimes which Saddam was not charged for before his hanging, lest they incriminate the US & UK). Not to harp on those points, but those are the things you would expect a liberal-biased media to bring up if they were worth their salt. Some bullshit piece about McCain having an affair with a lobbyist is nothing compared to what they should be talking about.
Quote from Hankstar :

What I want to know is: where was hell was this extremist liberal bias when George was blatantly & knowingly lying his arse off about mushroom clouds and yellowcake from Niger and Saddam's supposed links to Osama bin Laden? Bush's own family has stronger links to the bin Ladens than Saddam ever did FFS. It's worth remembering that Osama and Saddam got to where they are purely by US intervention: the CIA trained & equipped Osama and his mujahedin to fight the Soviets in the 80s; the US helped to install and later arm Saddam with WMD (Rumsfeld himself happily shook Saddam's hand shortly before Saddam used his new WMD against Iran - crimes which Saddam was not charged for before his hanging, lest they incriminate the US & UK). Not to harp on those points, but those are the things you would expect a liberal-biased media to bring up if they were worth their salt. Some bullshit piece about McCain having an affair with a lobbyist is nothing compared to what they should be talking about.

That's exactly my point. But if Bush didn't surround himself with all those hawks he may not have been so gong-ho about war as he was and is. He didn't really do the lying. His staff did the lying he was just regurgitating what his companions wanted. Which was war in the Iraq for oil.

The retarded part is that we could have just paid off Saddam. It worked in the Gulf War and it could have worked any time because Saddam was a corrupt islamic. But now since he's gone there's a very good chance that a extreme fundamentalist might take over Iraq (which is what we are there to prevent) and Obama wants to pull out in 16 months? Plus since we took Iraq out of the picture Iran is now focusing their attention on the US. I've always thought the war was a mistake. But it's A MISTAKE TO JUST CUT AND RUN from something we got ourselves in.

If the liberal media didn't focus so much on trying to bring up dirt about the Republicans we might shed some light on this very complicated subject...but noooooo.
NY times extreme liberal. Joke of the year



Extreme liberals, hate America. Joke of the millennia!
Quote from Hyperactive :NY times extreme liberal. Joke of the year



Extreme liberals, hate America. Joke of the millennia!

Quote from Berkeley :American is the worse institution ever created

Quote from Michael Moore :The American government is the worse lier on policies. Everything American does is idiotic

Maybe it was a mistake to post this in a international forum. When I refer to liberals. I'm ONLY referring to AMERICAN EXTREME LIBERALS. Those that stem from the hippie era.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

edit: Also, while I agree that it's bad to reactionarily assign blame to America for everything wrong in the world, the fact is that many things wrong in the world right now can be traced back to policies put in place by the American government. The intent likely wasn't for bad things to happen, but they did and it's not anti-American to take responsibility for them.

True. But not everything is America's fault and the extreme liberals are all to eager to jump on an anti-american attitude to everything that the american government does.

Do all liberals do this? OF COURSE NOT. But do extreme liberals do? OF COURSE.

There's a difference between being open minded about our government and being Rosie O'Donnell.
I laugh at how all these international people jump to discredit Lizardfolk when they themselves probably have absolutely no idea of the situation in the United States. The US is the most extreme country I've ever seen. You have the extreme anti-american liberals and then you have the racist evangelical conservatives. This division is tearing American apart and the media just tries to discredit each other instead of the focusing on the real problem in America.

Seriously guys, if you know nothing about America, dont talk.

Quote from lizardfolk :Maybe it was a mistake to post this in a international forum. When I refer to liberals. I'm ONLY referring to AMERICAN EXTREME LIBERALS. Those that stem from the hippie era.

That's very obvious. Anyone who cant see that you are talking about american and ONLY american situations and policies are retarded

Quote from Falcon140 :I'd be embarrassed

After your retarded statement (which you conveniently edited out) I would too

Quote from Shotglass :social programs arent liberal


that has nothing to do with liberals either


You just completely contradicted the major liberal policy and thinking in America....good job....do you even know what you are talking about?

Quote from DeadWolfBones :I'm not exactly sure what you're babbling about. I think most liberals would be horribly offended to be identified with the wackos who follow Alex Jones et al. Most of them are misguided libertarians and general simpletons.

What a random sampling of celebrities say has very little to do with actual liberal policy, and I suggest that you don't take Depp or Penn or Sarandon or anyone seriously as a political spokesperson.

And to call the NYT "extreme liberal" media is just stupid.

edit: Also, while I agree that it's bad to reactionarily assign blame to America for everything wrong in the world, the fact is that many things wrong in the world right now can be traced back to policies put in place by the American government. The intent likely wasn't for bad things to happen, but they did and it's not anti-American to take responsibility for them.

News flash kiddo, the Times is the most liberal newspaper there is.
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(lizardfolk) DELETED by lizardfolk

New York Times
(78 posts, started )
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