No, Colin, you're making some real leaps from what I said, which was very clear, to something I most certainly did NOT say. I really don't appreciate that.. twist someone else's meaning, not mine, thanks kindly.
I'll say it again.. being held up IS part of racing when you're in a server with a number of cars in a long race where lapping is involved. Unfortunate, annoying, time-consuming and a fundamental part of multiplayer racing. At no time did I, nor will I, ever suggest that you should fight a lapping car for position.
Sure, ego gets in the way. But you are missing the point. The point is that all cars are racing. Some are racing to hold 18th spot and some are racing to hold 1st.
What the faster guy has to realize is that the slower guy is racing too. You may have to wait for a corner or two before the pass can happen if you catch them at a bad spot.
Conversely, the slower guy has to realize that the faster guy isn't just out there hot lapping for a pb. They are having a race too and every 10th of a second is important to them. Don't fight the guy, work with him to let him get around as quickly and as safely as possible.
Lapping is a big part of endurance racing. Traffic giveth and traffic taketh away. Learn from it and accept it. It will not change anytime soon. I can't say it any stronger than this. It is part of endurance racing at every level. Expanded and explicit rules are not really going to make it any different, just more complicated.
My last comment is this, if you are getting held up by a slower car who seems to be racing you, talk to the other team. We have team speak and vent servers up. We should have irc up for teams to use. Team managers should monitor these communications. This is exactly what real teams will do in races, they will talk to each other. You shouldn't have to discuss lapping, but that is one more tool to use. You never know, maybe somebody is confused because you discoed and reconnected and now you are 30 laps behind as far as LFS is concerned and you are not generating blue flags.
I've already posted earlier in this thread that the real problem was from some drivers who were 4, 5 or 6 laps down, and who were not having a close fight for position at this moment, fighting with the leaders for several laps while being under blue flag, even pushing the faster cars at fault or forcing them to make risky overtaking manoeuvres.
And this not happened to us CD only but to almost all teams which finished in the top 5.
By the rules as they are now, on a track like South City a slower car can easily hold up the whole pack behind him while doing nothing against the rules.
I fully understand that there might be slower cars on the track for many different reasons and that is part of racing but I find not acceptable that some drivers are ignoring the faster car(s) behind them for several laps while they are themselves not fighting for position.
The general blue flag rule doesn't say that it's an obligation to give the racing line nor to slow down but that you have to facilitate the overtaking of the faster car. What some drivers have deliberatly ignored during round 1, hence the need of a new set set of detailed rules to avoid any confusion.
The 5+ lap down car does not need to be fighting the leader. That is one thing i was unaware of going on in the first race.
I'll quote myself as for my idea, but Please note my added addendum below:
* With the addendum: Once a car has been lapped twice (i.e. on the 3rd, 4th, lapping), the team looses the right to the hold position till first racing move and must yield at the first safe opportunity to do so.
Reasoning is that for 2 laps, a team is conceivably in the race. Lengthy pit stop, a crash, driver differences, etc could explain 2 laps difference. After 2 laps, you are attempting to gain maximum laps, and not fighting for podium positions.
* Overtaking Manouver/Position To Pass Definition. Lapping car within 2 car length and makes a move to inside towards a braking zone.
Ideally, common sense would negate the need for this kinds of rules; however, it is important to have almost all scenarios played out in the rules.
Just so everyone's aware, I'm also discussing with Starblue ways to use the tracker to:
a) Give cars 2+ laps down to the car behind a "waved blue flag" a la CTRA, and...
b) Give the admins a warning when a car stays ahead of a lapping car for X number of sectors.
Here, along the bottom is how it is in BJ server, then my great paint skills is how I'd concieve it to be in the IGTC tracker, else it'll cover the clutch temperature bit.
First attempt at a new Blue Flag section for the rules:
The only real issue I see here is that cars 2+ laps down may still be quicker than a lapping car (particularly following a restart). Requiring them to let a lapping car by may create an undesirable situation wherein the faster (but lapped) car must give up his position and then shadow the lapping car. Furthermore, a lapped car has the right to attempt to un-lap himself if he has sufficient pace.
Perhaps some common sense can be used here. Is it necessary to write in a clause stating that a faster lapped car may ignore rule I1.2?
Please, poke holes in this proposal. We need to get this right.
Sounds better then it was before During the last race when Heikki was driving his final stint in #29 there was a lapped car catching up with him. I was watching this over LFS Remote and the Tracker and told Heikki to let the faster, but lapped, car pass as it was not for a position and was going 0.5s/lap faster at the time. Funny how that "lapped" car spun off the track just a few turns later though.... ;-) But it was the proper thing to do.
As you said...it's common sense, teams should do this and instruct their drivers when occasions like that come up
I'm sorry, but I feel the need to get involved in this discussion with some practical input.
CR had 2 spotters, me and R.Hoiting. we were constantly following the race via the tracker and remote (with me sometimes having to reconnect after suffering from connection problems).
Our strategy was : Moose 1st stint, bean0 2nd, Tony 3rd, Moose 4th to gain some ground back.
After a few minor incidents and quite unlucky descisions concerning SC laps we've found ourselves 4 laps down with a slightly popping engine and the Moose catching up to the SR car. He could do 1:09:low stable and came from about 20s behind SR to about 1s!
IF the above new rule would be there it would not have allowed us to unlap ourselves several times to get back to our position.
Imo you can surely change the blue flag rules in order to refine things, but maybe you should more adress to the drivers brains then put up more regulations.
Overtaking, especially lapping always involves the thing called common sense by both racers involved.
Let's take KY as an example, the first few corners after the high camber one. It will NOT be possible to make a clean pass in the right hander, cars might overshoot and land in the sand trap. The best thing to do here for the lapping car would be to wait and stay a few car lengths behind until the beginning of the double right, take a wider line, thus being able to accelerate faster and get the blue flagged car easily on the straight. This whole thing might be a few tenths slower (depending on both car's pace) but no one would be hurt.
I expect people to do it the first described way though....
If everyone would use his brain you could spare the safety car and we all could really enjoy the races
Well, we had 1 spotter + the other driver being a spotter, and we had no problems really. Except when 1 spotter was getting drunk, and I was making food, leaving sam to himself, which wasn't bad at all.
- the first two laps of the race every car will be monitored by the admins after the race (replay)
- on aSC period the following 2 laps every car will be monitored by the admins after the race (replay)
-the last two laps of the race every car will be monitored by the admins after the race.(replay)
I have a strong feeling that the IGTC admins know exactely how they want to have their race.
I don´t think the IGTC admin stuff has the manpower to go through a replay and check on every car during the hole 4 hours. That´s why I propose the 2 laps only. The way protests are done, should of course still be valid.
Every single incident detected by the admins after the race will get punished.
In the way i describe every driver will sooner or later know what is allowed to do - or not.
There will be better and more cautious racing all in all.
Mayby not the upcoming race as some people first have to feel how it´s like to get some point reduction after the race, but in two or three races everybody will know what to do and what they better not should do...
Bottom line, it's prescriptive rather than goal-based, and thus it's likely that it will break in some way.
I would recommend taking Eric Hall's statement, which is the essence of what you want to convey by re-defining the blue flag rules, and try to make that itself into a rule. The more goal-based you can make your rule, the less opportunities for people to find loopholes in it.
Bones, if common sense was being used by the lapping , as well as, lapped cars you wouldn't have to re-write the rules.
I think you are setting yourself up for controversy. The 2+ laps down but fast than a lapping car clause is rather subjective. Additionally, if I am faster even though I am multiple laps down I am not giving up my position only to tail the lapper because he is laps ahead, just makes for a dangerous situation. As you state lapped cars have the right to unlap themselves if possible.
And Sam, if you can give me an idea of what you mean by goal-based, please do so. Try to rewrite that current rule section I just posted in that style.
