Quote from luftrofl :

You say that "drifting" refers to FR only, but that's just what you think. Can you show me a rulebook or a statement made by someone who's qualified to make decisions such as this?
I gave you one that shows, if anything can be pulled from reading a rulebook, that FF can drift.

I'm only a couple years older than you so I can't call you a "kid" based on age, only actions. That said, when I said that I was referring to the general community of LFS drift-tastic idiots who are generally too young to drive but talk a LOT of smack because they spend 1823213 hours drifting in LFS.

first, check this out,

Quote :

...and as far as regulations go, i have no idea how D1 allows FF's (that's preposterous)

Quote :

Engine/Transmission:
A) Engine and transmission modifications are free.
B) Engine and radiator catch tanks with a minimum capacity of one (1) quart each are required and securely fastened.
C) Engine, transmission and cooling system must free of leaks, fluid leaks will not be tolerated
D) All vehicles must be rear-wheel drive. Drive train may be modified, but must push power from the rear wheels.

http://www.drifting.com/Formula_Drift.php
second of all go talk to people on drift forums

and also, i have been driving since before i got my license, my daddy made me a fake just in case we get pulled over

and sure, you can do spectacular controlled slides, i am just arguing for the term DRIFT, the official noun/verb

and i play lfs only on dry, sunny days when i don't/can't race...

Quote from atlantian :

*sigh* you CAN'T change the SLIP ANGLE on the rear wheels of an FF with your throttle.

You can.

Some basic vehicle dynamics knowledge is in order:

In a front-wheel steered car, the slip angle of the rear tyres are controlled by changing the lateral movement of the chassis. Normally you do this by changing the slip angle of the front tyres by using the steering wheel.

In a skid, if you apply so much power to the front tyres that they loose grip while turning, you are reducing the slip angles at the rear tyres because lateral movement is reduced. If you reduce power and allow drag at the front tyres to slow them down and regain traction, there will be an onset of lateral movement of the chassis, which in turn increases slip angles of the rear tyres.

Hence it is possible to control the slip angles of the rear tyres by using the throttle in a FF car.

In an oversteer situation, lateral movement is induced on the chassis by the rear tyres sliding away from the direction of the turn (this counter-acts the lateral movement induced on the chassis by the front tyres steering). This reduces the slip angles at the front tyres, and at the same time induces the front tyres to move in the same direction as the car's travel. The latter phenomenon is self-aligning torque, and can be easily felt via the steering wheel (self-aligning torque is also felt in understeer situations: the steering feels feels heavier as slip angles at the front tyres increase, then suddenly light as the front tyres lose grip). So as a car oversteers, the front tyres naturally tries to return past their neutral (straight ahead) position and then turn further to align itself to the direction of the travel of the chassis. This is why drifters will often flick the steering wheel into the skid and allow it to rotate itself.

In summary, you can modify the slip angles of the front or rear tyres by adjusting the grip levels or slip angles at the opposite set of tyres.

:doh:...
why is noone listening to me and trying to find holes around my words!?!?!?!?!

you can't change the SLIPAGE of the rear wheels with the THROTTLE of an FF. or do i have to reword my definition again?!?!?!?!?

edit:

Quote :

IT IS GRIPPING THE ROAD AND FOLLOWING THE RACE LINE WITH YOUR FRONT WHEELS, WHILE YOU ARE SLIDING WITH THE REAR WHEELS, WHILE HAVING THE ABILITY TO <delete>CONTROL</delete>[INCREASE AND DECRESE] THE [REAR WHEEL'S] SLIP ANGLE WITH YOUR THROTTLE.

:google:

Quote from atlantian :

:doh:...
why is noone listening to me and trying to find holes around my words!?!?!?!?!

you can't change the SLIPAGE of the rear wheels with the THROTTLE of an FF. or do i have to reword my definition again?!?!?!?!?

edit:


:google:

We are listening to you, but you're still wrong. Usually, when talking about factual things, if you find yourself asking "Why does everyone else think I'm crazy? (or wrong, different, etc.)" then it's probably not a problem with everyone else, it's a problem with you.

I'll give you that point about FD, however. FD's website sucks hard and I couldn't find anything about it. More reason why I dislike it.

well, D1 only ALLOWS ff, but the community still thinks that FF sucks and btw, i did not pull this out of my own ass... i actually stood for the fact that ff's and awd "drifted" but the thing is i failed, and i was fighting pretty hard, ask around on some drifting forums and stop arguing with me, i am trying to tell you what the majority believes in.

Quote from atlantian :

well, D1 only ALLOWS ff, but the community still thinks that FF sucks and btw, i did not pull this out of my own ass... i actually stood for the fact that ff's and awd "drifted" but the thing is i failed, and i was fighting pretty hard, ask around on some drifting forums and stop arguing with me, i am trying to tell you what the majority believes in.

Nobody is saying that FF is easy or even comparable to RWD when it comes to drifting. While I think that FF can drift, I think it sucks for drifting.

You've been saying FF can't drift because a bunch of people on internet forums said so? You should know better than to believe what the "masses" of the internet think.

Quote from atlantian :

:doh:...
why is noone listening to me and trying to find holes around my words!?!?!?!?!

you can't change the SLIPAGE of the rear wheels with the THROTTLE of an FF. or do i have to reword my definition again?!?!?!?!?

Actually you can. Its all about weight transfer. Button off a FF when you are already in oversteer with grip at the front end (It is possible to have oversteer or understeer in a 4 wheel slide BTW) and the rear will unweight more so oversteer more. Come on the power and the weight transfer is reversed thus giving more grip at the rear.

That said, you need to have a FF car that is sensitive to weight transfer on the throttle, many modern cars are not to make it easier for muppet drivers. My Mini was VERY sensitive to weight transfer from throttle input though.

Quote from atlantian :

:doh:...
why is noone listening to me and trying to find holes around my words!?!?!?!?!

you can't change the SLIPAGE of the rear wheels with the THROTTLE of an FF. or do i have to reword my definition again?!?!?!?!?

Well, now your new definition says:

Quote from atlantian :

IT IS GRIPPING THE ROAD AND FOLLOWING THE RACE LINE WITH YOUR FRONT WHEELS, WHILE YOU ARE SLIDING WITH THE REAR WHEELS, WHILE HAVING THE ABILITY TO <delete>CONTROL</delete>[INCREASE AND DECRESE] THE [REAR WHEEL'S] SLIP ANGLE WITH YOUR THROTTLE.

So you're talking about SLIP ANGLE, therefore my explanation about controlling the slip angle of the rear tyres using the throttle in a FWD car, still applies.


Read my explanation about slip angles again. It's pretty basic stuff.

I'm not a big poster as most of you can see ( been in lfs since august 07 but rather quiet on forums but anyway ) ... just sends a .spr that show's that AWD indeed can drift. Not tryin' too hi-jack the thread. If i did i apologise.

Here is a .spr from ... i'm not the greatest driver but i would consider myself as " above average "

DSSD•So!id™_AU1_FinalCut sort of.spr

Quote from atlantian :

drift= power oversteer...

even awd can't do this, you need pure RWD power and have nothing interfere

Putting it in big bold type doesn't make that statement any more true.

Basically, drifting existed as a motorsport term decades before the Japanese popularised mild powersliding as a sport and gave it the same name.

Well sorry. The word and meaning has already been defined, (as per the definitions from websters and wiki already posted), you can scream, shout and have whatever narrow minded view you like but you can't change the definition just to suit your own personal willy waving egos.

The term drifting can be applied to any situation when the wheels of a motor vehicle are sliding in a controlled manner. It is not required that the wheels in question are being powered, end of.

To give another example. Motorcycle racers often two wheel drift in to corners to scrub off speed. Now if you really want to get in to an argument about which form of drifting takes more skill then I'll challenge all you "drifters", (real life or LFS'ers) to attempt that and not come up with egg on your face.

Quote from Woz :

Actually you can. Its all about weight transfer. Button off a FF when you are already in oversteer with grip at the front end (It is possible to have oversteer or understeer in a 4 wheel slide BTW) and the rear will unweight more so oversteer more. Come on the power and the weight transfer is reversed thus giving more grip at the rear.

That said, you need to have a FF car that is sensitive to weight transfer on the throttle, many modern cars are not to make it easier for muppet drivers. My Mini was VERY sensitive to weight transfer from throttle input though.

neutral steer is NOT drifting
=/
that's what i have been trying to explain.

btw, why do you guys visualize a static diagram when you guys are thinking about drifting? it is not what it looks like at one frame, you can make it look like drifting, but by the sound and action of the car, you can tell that it's not drifting, you can't do long sweepers, drifting is long held slides(not done by inertia).

and another thing, i KNOW there are successful FF and AWD drifters.(takahashi-EK9,Dave Scholz-EK9, Kyle(who won a drift contest in hawaii)-EG6, Rhys Millen-Evo7(right before they banned AWD)).

I am not a bigot FR driver who is refusing to be open minded, i AM an FF and AWD driver, and i tried arguing with people about this and have long given up. and i have accepted that you need front wheel grip and rear wheel slippage with the throttle controlling the rear wheel to alter the slip angle. and it's not such a big deal, i just have to stop saying "i drift with AWD's" and say "i drive like a maniac"

Quote from gezmoor :

Putting it in big bold type doesn't make that statement any more true.

Basically, drifting existed as a motorsport term decades before the Japanese popularised mild powersliding as a sport and gave it the same name.

Well sorry. The word and meaning has already been defined, (as per the definitions from websters and wiki already posted), you can scream, shout and have whatever narrow minded view you like but you can't change the definition just to suit your own personal willy waving egos.

The term drifting can be applied to any situation when the wheels of a motor vehicle are sliding in a controlled manner. It is not required that the wheels in question are being powered, end of.

To give another example. Motorcycle racers often two wheel drift in to corners to scrub off speed. Now if you really want to get in to an argument about which form of drifting takes more skill then I'll challenge all you "drifters", (real life or LFS'ers) to attempt that and not come up with egg on your face.

okey, fine you know what i give up,

and that means that i can say that i am a drifter :-D

Quote from atlantian :

neutral steer is NOT drifting
=/
that's what i have been trying to explain.

btw, why do you guys visualize a static diagram when you guys are thinking about drifting? it is not what it looks like at one frame, you can make it look like drifting, but by the sound and action of the car, you can tell that it's not drifting, you can't do long sweepers, drifting is long held slides(not done by inertia).

Actually if you read back in this thread I say that FF is not drifting. I do not class it as drifting.

What I was correcting you on though is that you CAN change the slip angle of the rear wheels in an FF car with your right foot, as long as you have a car that is sensitive to throttle balancing, unlike most modern FF cars.

So argue away ALL you like. On the statement I picked you up on you were WRONG, plain and simple.

If you still do not believe this I recomend you go and learn some more on car dynamics because your knowledge on the subject appears to be lacking considering how forcefull you are trying to be with your arguments.

No, big shouting red letters does not make you any more right BTW.

So to recap. YOU CAN change the slip angle of the rears in an FF car using your right foot. If you don't like this fact go and change the laws of physics and then you can be right

*sigh* i know that, i am trying to say, it can't change the slip angle on the rear wheels, and on the rear wheels i mean, modify the angle(line-car) from the rear wheels, pivoting the front wheels...

okey, woz, it's cool that ur correcting me, but that is just a wording problem, now, it's:

Quote :

IT IS GRIPPING THE ROAD AND FOLLOWING THE RACE LINE WITH YOUR FRONT WHEELS, WHILE YOU ARE SLIDING WITH THE REAR WHEELS, WHILE HAVING THE ABILITY TO <delete>CONTROL</delete>[INCREASE AND DECRESE] THE [REAR WHEEL'S] SLIP ANGLE WITH YOUR THROTTLE[FROM THE REAR WHEELS, PIVOTING UPON THE CAR'S FRONT WHEELS].

It is as simple as this;

FF = NOT DRIFTING.

^finally...

Sorry but only RWD cars can really control a drift without using e-brake each second during the drift.

Quote from CobraDrifter :

Sorry but only RWD cars can really control a drift without using e-brake each second during the drift.

who are you talking to?

atlantian stop changing your definition of drifting to fit what you can argue for.

You don't get e-cool points for winning and your posts are looking less informative and more desperate.

no, i already have an idea, it's just that you guys are just finding loop-holes around my statement

Quote from atlantian :

no, i already have an idea, it's just that you guys are just finding loop-holes around my statement

No.

For me personally, I consider drifting in the same way that 90% of other motorsports competitors consider it. That means controlled sliding of the rear or all tyres of a car (or bike, as someone mentioned).

You are trying to push for a meaning that only "drift fans" seem to like. Not even real professional drifters, but just fans of D1/Formula-D style of drifting.

Quote from atlantian :

*sigh* i know that, i am trying to say, it can't change the slip angle on the rear wheels, and on the rear wheels i mean, modify the angle(line-car) from the rear wheels, pivoting the front wheels...

okey, woz, it's cool that ur correcting me, but that is just a wording problem, now, it's:

You have never driven an old Mini then

The engine has so much inertia coupled with a car that is so light that you DO have that sort of control over the car. You might not have the same fine grained control as a RDW because the power comes from the other end of the car but you CAN change the slip angles of the rears from you input on the trottle.

There is a reason that the Mini was such a good rally car back in its day It even spanked most RWD at the time.

As I said before, it is all about weight transfer and using that to manipulate the car.

Think about a RWD. If you push into far enough into oversteer and then quickly button off the weight dumps forwards and you will actuall oversteer more until you slow enough and the tires bite again. In this situation you have manipulated the slip of the rears without using the cars power, just weight shift.

Car control and manipulation of grip is more subtle that what you can do just pushing the rears into and out of the circle of grip

oh, sure, i messed around in an FF before, and i have been racing an FF lexus for a while, it's a hassle to "drift" in

Quote from atlantian :

oh, sure, i messed around in an FF before, and i have been racing an FF lexus for a while, it's a hassle to "drift" in

I hate modern cars. They damp the throttle to stop you using weight shifts because it makes it easier for muppets to drive them around town. Good old safety Nazi's at work.

Even my BMW Cooper, when I had it, was not really that direct on the throttle. Far too damped. You could be really brutal with your foot movements without too many negative side effects etc.

While if you lifted off quickly in my old Clubman at say 100Km/h you would feel the jolt. Instant reaction to even the smallest throttle movement. Great for balance control but shite to commute and drive around town

get a euno or hachi...