I've started a karting league with my job, and beforehand i had'nt driven a kart before. One thing I noticed straight away was that the basic princepals learnt from this sim where pretty much the same, but the physical toll it takes to drive the cart round a couple of laps surprised me.

When saying 'the basic principals' i mean knowing what racing lines are and being able to keep a cool head in traffic and knowing what to 'expect' in different situations in the course of racing.

Luck has it that an ex-employee of my company is currently a driving instructor at Mondello and me wants to get racing for real.

Am I too old to begin racing(25)? and, How much avg. a year is it gonna cost me?...and what would one be expected to spend out to get a ...say... a punto race track prepared?

What do you mean by getting a punto race track prepared? If you mean things like track days, then not alot i suspose. A few safety things might be needed, but it depends. Then all the rest would need to go on mods if you really want a fighting chance. Things like suspension, tyres and brakes should have a highed priority first.

If you mean like fully blown racing, then again, it depends. The series you may be entering may have stricter racing regulations. Things like having a safety roll cage, moving the fual tank and fire extinguisher may just be a couple of things you may need.

About the karting, i cant help you with any of that ;d

no i was'nt being too serious about the punto, anything that could go practice in track days and be fit for a series too

...I'd sacrifice my road car for a track car

There was an article on Motorsport in last months Mini Magazine IIRC. It ranged from doing stuff like Hillclimbs all the way upto the Miglia championship. It all depends on how much time and money you want to put into it.

You are too old to make it professionally. But as long as you younger than 60 (and 25 was, last time I checked) you can start any form of racing (though over 45s need an annual medical for a race licence over here).

(might not be 45, but it's around that).

Definitely not too old.

As Tristancliffe said, it's probably too old to make it professionally. However, I do know there are professional racing drivers who started older than that, but they most likely had a lot of unexploited talent to begin with, and money to get lots of coaching to bring it out.

For club racing, any age will do as long as you're mentally and physically fit enough to drive. There are retired racing and rally drivers still competing at over 60 years of age.

Be forewarned: racing is expensive. At the cheapest, you might be able to buy a second-hand Formula Vee 1200cc for around AUD$10,000 and do a season of racing on a budget of around AUD$15,000 providing own transport and maintaining your own car, and not crashing it. If you want to race competitive touring cars, be prepared to spend at least AUD$30,000 per year, not including the cost of an initial purchase of a car.

(Convert all AUD$ to Irish currency.)

Quote from CSU1 :

Am I too old to begin racing(25)? and, How much avg. a year is it gonna cost me?...and what would one be expected to spend out to get a ...say... a punto race track prepared?

You're not too old to go club racing, the oldest license holder, Tom Delaney last raced at age 95 So long as you're physically and mentally fit enough there's no reason you can't race at any age. Car racing, especially production based racing is much less physically demanding than karting so I wouldn't worry too much about the physical side of it.

As for a Punto well what do you plan on doing with it? Keep it as a road car and do a few track days? Or keep it as a road car and go racing with it (perfectly possible but always wise to have a spare car you can use should you bend it)?

If you're wanting to do track days I'd suggest you start off in something fairly slow, fun and mechanically sound. A standard road car is fine for this, you'll need a helmet but that's it. If you're going to start going down the modifying route you'll pretty soon want to put a full cage, bucket seats and 4 point harnesses in at which point you'll want to evaluate whether you can live with that as your road car. If you want to go racing you'll need to stick a plumbed in fire extinguisher into your car and you'll have to have a cage that's intrusive and makes the rear seats unusable unless you want to be constantly taking it apart.

Depending on what level you wish to compete at the costs will be different. For track days the costs really are fuel and entry fees (and tires if you're taking it seriously). At track days you can be relatively light on the brakes, engine and transmission whilst still having fun in a completely standard car. If you're cash struck I'd recommend trying a track day or two to see if you enjoy it (you will) first.

Bare in mind track days are not competitive and you cannot time yourself. If you want an element of competition there are occasional timed events on race tracks that allow standard cars and I think sprints and hillclimbs still allow completely standard cars to be exempt from the rollcage and harness regulations, you will not be exempt from buying and wearing a full suit and certified helmet if you go this way though. If you want to race you'll have to go the fully prepared car route in terms of safety, even if you leave it mechanically standard, costs are very dependent on the level of racing you're doing and how seriously you wish to take it, the front of the field will almost always spend around 4 times as much as the mid field cars just to make up that last tenth of a second.

There are different championships offering very different racing in similar cars, for example if you want to race a small hatchback you could go down the stock hatch route, standardish cars racing very competitively, great fun and cheap but you'd be a very brave man not to trailer your car to races. There several Golfs driven to the circuit in the VW racing championship that sometimes races at 750MC meetings, they have much cleaner, but still exciting, racing in more developed cars that are somewhat faster, it probably costs the same after a season or so despite the higher starting costs and people really do race there day cars.

Do proper karting mate. Cheapest, and best form of motorsport in the world. When Senna says that it's the most breath taking sport in the world, even more so than F1, there can't be much argument?

The amount of track time, and atmosphere at a kart meets, IMO is far more vibrant, and fun. If your in it for the love of driving, and not on some ego trip so you can go pub and say your a racing driver... there is not other choice

Where are you based, and what budget do you have? Is probably the most appropriate question though

Quote from Intrepid :

Do proper karting mate. Cheapest, and best form of motorsport in the world. When Senna says that it's the most breath taking sport in the world, even more so than F1, there can't be much argument?

You can be doing track days for a lot less than karting and if you
pick the right ones get a lot more track time for the money. You can also do speed events for less, but you get very little track time at those. Karting is one of the cheapest ways to get wheel to wheel racing, although it's hardly cheaper than the lowest cost club series
so I think it should be considered as a parallel to those series rather than a stage bellow.

Quote from ajp71 :

You can be doing track days for a lot less than karting and if you
pick the right ones get a lot more track time for the money. You can also do speed events for less, but you get very little track time at those. Karting is one of the cheapest ways to get wheel to wheel racing, although it's hardly cheaper than the lowest cost club series
so I think it should be considered as a parallel to those series rather than a stage bellow.

With a kart that cost me less than £800 (which by the way is VERY competitive not a rust heap) and a track fee of £35 I did 100 laps. I can even hire a whole circuit to myself for around £150 TO MYSELF from 9am-6pm! Cars can't be any cheaper than that. What car track in the UK can you do 100+ laps for £35 with a spares/part shop there as well? What car track in the UK will let you hire it all day for less than £150?

At budget level karting is STUPIDLY cheap... of course the realities of high level karting are totally different of course.

Though I know 'certain' people will argue with me here, but karts are the best things to drive, and simply can't be touched on cost as a noob.

btw I have seen a very old woman (maybe 60's didn't ask) doing some lappage in a kart once... at 25 you shouldn't even be asking if your too old! lol

Proper karting would be your best bet. More racing for your money.
However, if you do want to race cars you have a few budget choices in Ireland.

1) Formula Vee (Single Seater) - bags of sh1te but great fun to race, relatively cheap. You could do a season for about €5k plus car.
2) Old Punto (Saloon Car) - again a bag of sh1te but also good fun to race. Grids are normally big enough and competitive. You could do a season for about the same as a Vee.
3) Legends (The car in my avatar!) - new class to Ireland in 2009 (one off racing in 2008). I could hook you up with a good car for about €1k a weekend.


All the prices are rough above. For a more acurate budget for vees or puntos try posting on boards.ie. Plenty of the lads ]on there race both classes.

Also note that mondello dont let race cars out on the track on "Track Days". You have to do race car test days if you have a race car.

Quote from Intrepid :

At budget level karting is STUPIDLY cheap... of course the realities of high level karting are totally different of course.

You've not mentioned a race in there at all, if you want to just go and do laps a track day is still cheaper and easier than a kart test session for going and having a first go. If you want to race remotely competitively you'll probably be looking at engine rebuilds and new sets of tires more than once a season and generally higher costs than simply testing.

Quote from nikimere :

1) Formula Vee (Single Seater) - bags of sh1te but great fun to race, relatively cheap. You could do a season for about €5k plus car.

I know that the front running cars in the 750MC Formula Vee championship are spending serious amounts of money, so much in fact that there are drivers looking to move up to F4 (1.8 Zetec, wings and slicks) into nearly new (and potentially front running cars) because it costs the same to actually be in with a chance of getting anywhere. Formula Vee is a very competitive formula and whilst the cars are very simple engines are expensive and really it only offers the first transition from karts to real cars.

Quote from ajp71 :

I know that the front running cars in the 750MC Formula Vee championship are spending serious amounts of money, so much in fact that there are drivers looking to move up to F4 (1.8 Zetec, wings and slicks) into nearly new (and potentially front running cars) because it costs the same to actually be in with a chance of getting anywhere. Formula Vee is a very competitive formula and whilst the cars are very simple engines are expensive and really it only offers the first transition from karts to real cars.

That is the same story with any one-make series. Being at the middle of the field is relatively cheap in Formula Vee and Formula Ford. Being at the front is much more expensive, but it is far easier to manage it with less money in Formula Vee than other series.

The cost estimate for Formula Vee I gave in my previous post will provide a driver with a decent second-hand car in ready-to-drive condition. Not a race-winner, but a steady mid-fielder with occasional challenges at the front of the pack when driven by the right person. Additional budget all depends on the cost of fuel, tyres, repairs (potentionally big $$$), spares (another big $$$) and transport.

Quote from ajp71 :

You've not mentioned a race in there at all, if you want to just go and do laps a track day is still cheaper and easier than a kart test session for going and having a first go. If you want to race remotely competitively you'll probably be looking at engine rebuilds and new sets of tires more than once a season and generally higher costs than simply testing.

I can enter a race weekend which includes a minimum of 6 10 minute sessions on a Saturday, and 3 Heats of around 8-10 laps and a Final of around 12-15 laps.

Fuel - £10-15
Tyres (not compulsory) - £90
Entry - £80
Spares and bits and Bobs - £50

That is tight budget but you don't have to spend more than £200 a weekend. of which you can get more than enough running time, and plenty of races

Engine rebuilds.... I would only have to get that done once or twice a season which is only £100-200. And the competition is very high. I will be racing some of the best kart drivers in the country, on pretty even equipment. I can't see how even club car driving can compare.

Karting like anything is as expensive as you want to make it. But I know you can compete on a VERY high level no next to nothing. I have seen it with my own eyes.

Of course if the guy wants to do car racing that's fine. WHy not Formula Jedi?

Well im 63 and i started at the age of 61. I came 2nd in the club season for Rotax over 40.

Quote from Intrepid :

Of course if the guy wants to do car racing that's fine. WHy not Formula Jedi?

Much like Formula Vee it's not cheap to be at the front of the field in a relatively simple but very fast car. It would make the ultimate midfield/sprint/hillclimb/track day car for peanuts though. Also bear in mind they've got very little frontal protection for such fast cars and easily tangle wheels so really aren't safe for typical kart style tactics. They're also easy to damage compared to Formula Vee due to more sophisticated (but still outboard) suspension and wings detract from the racing.

Quote from aoun :

Well im 63 and i started at the age of 61. I came 2nd in the club season for Rotax over 40.

15/10/90?

Hmm... about that....


lol

I'll be turning 23 in April and I'm planning on getting into motorcycle racing (WERA, northeastern division) this year with the 1990 Kawasaki EX500 I just bought. It needs some work due to having sat for a while (and getting dropped) but with very low miles (3700), it should make a fine bike for the Clubman and Vintage 6 Lightweight classes.

I'm planning on getting my racing license sometime within the next couple months.

FYI, the EX500 is a 500cc 4-stroke parallel twin with 4 valves per cylinder and liquid cooling.

Quote :

CLUBMAN EXPERT & NOVICE (all below based on Formula rules except as noted)
Unlimited displacement 2 & 4-stroke singles
Up to 605cc 4-stroke water-cooled twins
Up to 650cc 4-stroke air-cooled twins
Up to 250cc 4-stroke water-cooled multis
Up to 600cc 4-stroke air-cooled 2 valve per cylinder multis
Up to 570cc 4-stroke air-cooled 4 valve per cylinder multis
Up to 450cc 2-stroke air-cooled multis
Up to 373cc 2-stroke water-cooled multis
All Vintage 4 machines
*Honda Hawks and Air cooled Ducati 750’s, 250cc 2-stroke GP replica machines (TZR, NSR, RGV, etc..), and Triumph Thruxton, are allowed but limited to Superstock mods with the exception that slicks are allowed., no Ducati Supermono, no Aprilia Cup machines. 125cc & 250cc GP machines are not allowed.

Vintage 6 Lightweight
Pre 1990 Air Cooled multi’s up to 600cc.
Pre 1990 Liquid Cooled multi’s up to 490cc
Pre 1990 Air Cooled twins up to 750cc.
Pre 1990 Air Cooled pushrod twins up to 1000cc.
Pre 1990 Liquid Cooled twins up to 650cc.
Pre 1990 Air Cooled 2-stroke multis up to 750cc.
Pre 1990 Liquid Cooled 2-stroke twins up to 410cc. (250cc GP machines must run HW.)
Pre 1990 Singles unlimited.

Among the eligible V6 Light Weight machines are the following: Ducati 750SS (non-FI models); Harley-Davidson 883cc Sportster (any year); Honda NT650GT (any year), VFR 400, NSR 250, NSR125 (any year); Kawasaki EX 500 (any year); Suzuki GS 500 (any year), RGV 250; Yamaha FZR 400 (any year), FZ 600, RZ 350 (up to 450cc), TZR (in Superstock trim).

I'm hoping my 1990 model still qualifies for Vintage 6 Lightweight. I don't see why it shouldn't, since the 1987 design didn't get changed at all until 1994, and even then the changes were fairly minor. The rules also indicate any year for that particular bike, so I think I should be okay.

Quote from aoun :

Well im 63 and i started at the age of 61. I came 2nd in the club season for Rotax over 40.

huge respect.

I am 75 and now I can't even land my Harrier jumpjet on my son's bald spot.

never to old to start , my dad races in the murcia 125 karting championchip and hes 47 in april , last season came 9th , kart my avtar

<----

Quote from JJ72 :

huge respect.

I am 75 and now I can't even land my Harrier jumpjet on my son's bald spot.

For some reason, I don't think he was serious...

Quote from Gil07 :

For some reason, I don't think he was serious...

Neither was I.