I don't think wtfimnameless meant this side-view-with-spectator-mode to be a solution really. I understood it as a experiment with independent angles for separate displays. By using this unwieldy setup the benefits of multiple viewports have been proven.
I wonder what Scawen thinks about this? I for one would like to hear some feedback.
This is what he thought about this a few years ago
The video card manufacturers still haven't come to the party it would be interesting to hear if Scawen is thinking it deserves higher priority now I'd be happy just knowing it will make it into S3
At first I did that just to see what it would look like.. and it blows the doors off the current system for FOV and just how proper everything looks.. no distortion.
What i'm saying now is what is the difference between a rear view mirror in the car and proper multi screen support?
What is a rear view mirror in this game? It's a box that displays a different camera angle.
Right now when I play triplescreen the left and right rear view mirror are on my side screens.. why can't you make them larger and instead of being rear views, move the camera angle so its a side view.
What is the difference? Am I missing something here?
For the pics go back to my thread a couple posts up and go down near the bottom of the first page. There are some links of pics showing my new idea.
I cannot make the game do that, all I can do is hack it together to show what it could look like... and its freaking amazing.
Even if thats too hard to do why can't I just connect via lan from a second PC?? Thats how Forza 2 does it on Xbox 360 and thats how Gran Turismo 4 does it on PS2.
On Forza 2 mutli screen you just tell the game you want multi screen, tell it which camera angle.. and when it reboots it sits and waits to connect to the main screen. All it is, is a spectating view turned to the side. All the multi screen work is done offline.. just a client taking info from the main player. You only need one xbox live account to connect and play even quad screen on 360.
Don't mean to double post but heres what it boils down to:
1) Is it possible to add "Left" and "Right" virtual rear view mirrors just like the center one we can turn on right now?
2) Can the camera angle of these virtual rear view mirrors be changed?
3) Can these left and right virtual rear view mirrors be made bigger?
4) Can you base the size of your two virtual rear view mirrors on the resolution of the game?
Example: I am running at 5040x1050.
There is an option just under the "rear view mirror: none, virtual, both" that says something like "Triple Montior" or "Multi View"
When I click this on, all it does it enables two "virtual" side views.
To figure out the size of these virtual side views, LFS takes your horisontal resolution and divides it by 3, so it gives you two virtual rear view mirrors that are 1680x1050 and puts them on the far left and right of the screen.
Presto, triple screen support done.
Granted this is something the devs have to do, and they just might be too busy doing other things to the game. There is nothing wrong with that, LFS is their baby at the end of the day..
Like i've said before, I don't know a lot about programing so there's gotta be something i'm missing here... either that or people put too much thought into what you need to do to make triple screen work.
KISS - Keep It Stupidly Simple
If one of the mods can check with a dev about those four questions. Because if the answer is yes to all four then it's just a matter of what the priorities are and this conversation can be over. If the answer is no then we have to think of a better way... I'm basing this all on the fact that the virtual rear view mirror that this game has is a box showing a different camera angle... Just make the box bigger and change the camera angle. If it's possible for the dev's to add virtual side view mirros, this is possible... if they cannot do that for whatever reason.. then this idea just won't work.
Oh now i understand what you were on about with the side mirrors. At first it seemed like you wanted to have two full screen mirrors or something
So LFS currently renders 2 camera angles simultaneously, forward and backward. Should not be too hard to add a few more? But I really don't know what it takes..
Is it just forwards and back though? Don't forget about the in car mirrors too.. I think they're different angles too.. so thats 1 main, 3 in car rear views plus one virtual rear view. 5 total.
The side view mirrors aren't different angles - they're the same as the rear view (exception they only display a portion of what the rear view displays).
hmm, maybe thats the issue, maybe this game can only have front and back views at once. thats too bad if thats the case.. Oh well, it's all speculation at this point... guess we can only hope for the best.
This is a really interesting discussion. Having been away from the forums for a long time I'd missed all this, and it relates directly to some of what I've been working on independently. I think I understand exactly the point you are making Juls.
It might help if our understanding of how humans judge speed is explained. It's not as simple as stereoscopic distance measurements made over and over, although this is used when an object is focussed on, but something referred to as optic flow. There have been studies made, and it was found that one eyed people can judge speed just as effectively as two eyed people. The best way of explaining it is: As you are travelling down the road. A roadside object in the distance (say a lamp post) moves across your field of vision from the centre at an increasing rate until it's passed at the edge of the field of view. The brain uses this apparent acceleration to determine the velocity we're travelling at. It is thought that this is our (humans) main speed assessment method.
Increasing the FOV does indeed increase the perceived sense of speed by increasing optic flow on a flat screen, but it does come at the cost of reduced resolution at the centre of view (exactly where it matters most) and the distortion that some people find disturbing. The default 90 FOV causes the driver to over speed because of the spatial compression it imposes while maintaining correct comfortable perspective. I find 110 to be a good compromise.
What Juls originally proposed I believe, is to apply a spherical or elliptical distortion across the field of view to accentuate the optic flow without the resolution loss at the centre. It might become a problem however when the driver looks away to another part of the screen, as the prime spot wouldn't follow their gaze. TrackIR would fix that to a point if you only moved your head to look, but that is another story.
The Microsoft article is experimenting in what is largely a static conference scene and probably doesn't apply here. Though it does highlight the inherent problems with 3D worlds on 2D media.
Using a wrap around projected screen is probably the best compromise. but without multiple independent viewport support in LFS, using more machines to render the other views still might be possible while maintaining synchronisation. I've been working on that for some time. The mirror problem is elegantly cured with this setup by using real mirrors.
It's worth repeating that we do not judge speed by sight alone. There are many other mechanisms that play on our senses which are just as important. If they can be emulated, or the whole body fooled into believing it's moving, the battle is almost won.
It would be be nice if LFS could support multiple viewports to enable any of the discussed options to work, or better still, (to take the load off one machine) have a render only client that could connect to the local client without taking up a server slot. I alluded to this before in discussions about spectator TV broadcasts. The possibilities could be endless.
Thank you very much for explaining a lot better than me
In fact it would not cause much problem if you look away from the center of the screen....it would even cause less problems than current view.
Look at the current view we have in 3D games. This is a distorted, approximation of a real perspective, where circles become stretched ellipses as they go away from center!
The spherical or elliptical distorsion proposed here is in fact an un-distorsion. Because if you apply it, circles remain (almost) circles even on the display sides. It replaces the odd stretching caused by the linear perspective used in 3D games with a more natural distorsion (barrel) we are used to see in everyday life on TV, pictures.
I disagree. I think a 3 projector setup would own.. but I would rather have side vision that gives me a sense of speed rather than a giant screen infront of me.
I tried moving my cockpit infront of my 71 inch TV and my personal preference was sticking with the triple 22's. I just cannot justify spending that much on three projectors for a game that does not properly support multi view...
Keep in mind a lot of people using over head projectors are running screens too big for the game to be realistic.. In a perfect world the screen should be the right size so other cars are real world size, not too big, not too small... I think that size would be somewhere around triple around triple 80-90ish inch screens.
That depends again, my screen is setup so that width of dashboard is close to what it should be IRL and cars actually look like cars now and not like some small toy objects, sure pixels are bigger, so it is case of if you value more of pretty pictures or more realistic view.
I need to turn my head like in real car, of course with 3 projector setup that would be even better.
Then if you consider costs, 3 big monitors are going to cost much more than 1 proctor which gives you equivalent image width.
I've used a projector once, the lack of resolution was really offputting. With a screen that big you only focus on the center of it, I think the resolution was only 1024x640, you end up focusing on just a few pixels and it's hard to make things out. I prefer multiple higher res screens tbh, although the issue of borders is always there, you can kinda get used to it.
1152x864 or something like that here, can't remember exact numbers. I find that I focus on side of screen at corners, looking to apex, if I look ahead I look bit higher, if I need to see dials I need to look down, just like IRL, that is what I find to add lot to immersion and to sense of speed too.
You need to use AA and AF really to compensate resolution a bit, but I'm waiting Full HD projectors to get realistic prices and with that resolution should be tad better.
You need two days to adjust to projector however, driving is lot different with it as you don't see everything in one look, which is again more real than with monitor.
Did you notice that this thread has nothing to do with screen size, projectors, and multiple monitors.
In fact it has something to do with it but this is not the main point.
It is about distorsion caused by linear perspective used in 3D libraries like OpenGL and DirectX, and a rather simple trick to correct most of this distorsion.
In 3D games, if you consider an object just in front of you and translate it to the right, it will remain the same size....even if it goes 5 kilometers to the right (assuming you can still see it with 180 degrees FOV). Because only front/rear distance to the object is considered, not lateral distance.
IRL, the same object will look smaller and smaller as it moves to the right. As it should be.
Even if you take three viewports and stitch them together for a three projectors surround setup, you have to do something with that stupid distorsion to have smooth transitions between the three viewports. Of course it is less visible than with a single large viewport, but the three pictures do not match (lines are broken). No way to escape, something has to be done about it, in post or pre-processing, whatever you have: single projector with large FOV,multiple projectors, multiple viewports...etc.
Juls, that is true, but if your picture is 19" wide that object on screen is certain amount of distance to right, now if you have 100" screen it is far more to your right and this physical distance helps to create illusion of objects becoming smaller when they move to sides. Of course very subtle effect still, but every bit counts
jtbo, I agree with you but the problem still remains. A large projector would be best suited with a large FOV and the image would be really distorted regardless of the screen size as Juls stated.
I wish I was more in the know about projectors. Like, what's the technical reason why we can't have a really wide aspect ratio projector like 16:3 (the equivalent of three 16:9 monitors linked together). It's so simple to make a good DIY screen for projectors...
JTBo - I thought the distance was not the main factor, but the angle. With a high FOV, an object near the edge will be quite some distance to your side (assuming you have a screen size that permits natural FOV), so the object takes up much less of your vision. I noticed in Obvilion that people always look really fat in the sidescreens if I look directly at them, but if I concentrate on the main screen they look a bit thinner. Assuming you can use your natural FOV, shouldn't these two effects cancel out?
I'm trying to understand what distortion you are talking about. When I play Forza2 or rFactor using the multiview mode I do not notice any distortion at all... if a car passes me it can go from the side monitors to the front monitors and it looks amazing. Forza 2 has the best mutli monitor support I have ever used and when configured properly I can honestly say it looks like a million bucks.
When you say "the lines are broken" and "three pictures do not match" I do not understand. In Forza 2 all lines and angles are 100% perfect when properly configured. The lines on the road are exact and flow 100% perfectly on to the side screens. The size of the lines are the same, the angles are exactly as they should be and the end effect is amazing. All lines including the horizon, the road, all barriers match up 100% for both sizes and angles.
im not exactly sure on the math behind those flat projection but my guess is that if you screen is wide enough the angular width of someting moving across the screen should remain constant so it should look the same even when you look directly at it regardless of where it is on screen
It was quite low number of degrees which we see when we focus on something, however we pickup movement from peripheral vision, which helps in feeling of speed, afaik.
Because we can't see very clearly sides of road with big picture, would this mean that it does not really matter which size objects become when they move to sides?
Was object followed with eye when they have tested sense of speed?
it would be interesting to hear if Scawen is thinking it deserves higher priority now 
I'd be happy just knowing it will make it into S3 
