Not sure if your trying to be funny or not, but I have been driving cars both on and off the track before you were out of primary school.
Bottom line is, how I feel the wheel in understeer conditions IRL is not how I feel it through my FFB wheel, its that simple, I am prepared to accept that my wheel settings may not be correct, in which case, give some other settings to try.
Just don't try to condesend me.

Dan,

I was trying to condesend no one. And just because you're older than me doesn't mean diddly squat. My grandad has been driving cars for over 70 years, but that doesn't make him a better driver than me...

All I am suggesting is that you either aren't getting the forces properly throught your wheel OR yuou don't know what forces you should really expect. It's sometimes difficult to separate what you think you feel (with sound, vibration, g-forces, bumps, and fear) with what your hands actually feel.

But not only do you not like LFS's FFB much, you also prefer rFactors. This leads me to think that perhaps it's your perception of what it should be like rather than what it IS like, because rFactors canned effects are very poor.

This sin't meant to be personal, I'm just explaining why I posted what I did.

So to cure it. Go into windows control panel. Click 'Enable force feedback'. Set Overall Effect Strength to 50%, and the two below that to zero. The uncheck Enable Centering Spring in Force Feedback Games, and set it's slider to zero too. Some people say you have to have that list box checked, but I prefer it without. In LFS I set the FFB level to about 40% depending onthe car and my mood. To much will swamp the detail with force, too little will be too floppy and weak.

I don't need to tell you that you'll need to get used to the new settings, so you should aim to use these settings for at least an hour, if not more, with a good setup - most WR sets seem to be quite good, but it there is little caster (and other things) it may ruin the feel.

In exchange, perhaps you could post your settings that you use in rFactor and Windows for your wheel so I can see how 'good' rFactor's FFB is with known good settings. I'm prepared to spend a couple of hours trying out your settings.

It's got nothing to do with being a better driver, I never said I was a better driver.

Also, I never said once I prefer the FFB in rFactor, I don't like rFactor, I have stated that numerous times on here, maybe you need to take more attention of what I have said rather than putting words in my mouth.

All I said was that I believed that the representation of understeer feedback, that and nothing else, "FELT" better and more realistic in GTL than in LFS, again, I have said all along that I am prepared to accept my settings are not correct.

I meant to post my settings last night, but had an hour on the track trying to get it sorted, I have used a WR setup from the setupfield, and also another from Sparkydave, the only thing that did feel better was the "snatch" understeer which is now more pronounced.

Also, I should state that I have ONLY been driving the FXO (non-GTR), I havent tried anyother cars.

I will post my settings tonight.

Dan,

rFactor, GTL, all the same to me. Except I don't own GTL. And I won't buy it because of a) GTR (which I wasted moeny on) and b) Starforce. Short sighted? Maybe, but I've played GTL at a friends house on a DFP and it felt just as bad as rFactor did to me...

But sorry for forgetting you were referring to GTL

i'm beginning to wonder if you're all getting a little excited, from my point of view the FFB in LFS is pretty damn good, better (ie more like reality) IMHO than any other i've tried, that's not to say it's perfect but it's along the right lines.

my feeling is that LFS's FFB must be pretty close to RL, if something happens IRL and i react a certain way, the chances are i'll react the same way in LFS given the same situation, barring G related sensations of course.

it's not like i'm a blinkered 'fanboy' anyway, i HAVE played 99.9% of sims and LFS is the closest thing to reality as far as the sensations you're talking about are concerned. that's why it's my sim of choice.

well i have my own opinion, in my real life car, a corsa diesel with no power steering, the wheel does get lighter but not that much, on a friends punto with power steering i could barely tell the diference when i was understeering. just my 2c

Dan, not trying to bait you or anything here, your frustration with the FFB issue and the responses you're getting seems very genuine. But can I just ask which real-life car is it that you've had the most relevant experience in? I wonder whether there's something going on with the steering geometry of your favourite real-world car that leads to a lighter wheel feel under understeer conditions. You mentioned in a previous post that you had experienced this phenomenon in a range of car types, but in what sort of car would you say it was most pronounced? FWD, RWD? Power steering? Extreme caster settings? Could any of these variables be at play in producing this difference in experience between yourself and some of the respondents?

Many, many different cars, from Mini Coopers, "Mighty Minis" spec, to Impreza's and a whole lot inbetween in the last 15+ years, on the whole it has been mainly FWD, and some AWD (most of which understeer more than FWD anyway).
At the moment I am basing this on purey the FXO, and my experiance with reletivly powerfull FWD cars.
Again, I have put a good hour or so in tonight of tweaking, and maybe its as good as I am going to get it, I still don't believe its there yet, its not bad, but I do think it could be better, I am going to post my wheel settings in the hope that some changes to them.

Dan,

are you using dfp?

270* of rotation in Windows settings, and 360* of rotation in LFS. Certainly not what I would expect to see. What wheel do you use?

Quote from danowat :

Many, many different cars, from Mini Coopers, "Mighty Minis" spec, to Impreza's and a whole lot inbetween in the last 15+ years, on the whole it has been mainly FWD, and some AWD (most of which understeer more than FWD anyway).
At the moment I am basing this on purey the FXO, and my experiance with reletivly powerfull FWD cars.
Again, I have put a good hour or so in tonight of tweaking, and maybe its as good as I am going to get it, I still don't believe its there yet, its not bad, but I do think it could be better, I am going to post my wheel settings in the hope that some changes to them.

Dan,

One thing I noticed is that your wheel lock in CP and LFS is different. They should be exactly the same to get best feel. Also looking at your windows control panel implies you have a DFP as you can adjust the lock. If this is the case you do the following.

1) Set your rotation to 720 in LFS and CP
2) Set wheel comp to 1

This will then let LFS know you have 720deg (Max used in LFS cars) of lock and the wheel comp will then reduce the lock used to relate to match the type of car being driven. You will only get the hard lock endstops at 720deg but LFS will just ignore the lock that is beyond the range of the current car. Saves having to muck around with lock ranges when you change cars.

Running like this normally means you need to increase the steering lock in your car setups to be max allowed (about 30deg) in the cars with full lock range but once done means the more road based cars feel very natural.

As a side note if you have your wheel lock set below the range of the car you are driving you will NOT get a flat response on the steering there will be a notch in the middle of the steering range where it moves at a slower rate to that near the edge of the lock range. This effects how you feel FF as well.

Final note, if you have not found them there two groups of setups by Bob on the forum. The first are road going setups for many cars and the other group are called easy race. Both groups have more "natural" car setups compared to the defaults in LFS.

Also give it a try with much less wheel turn compensation. (I use 0.10, though I don't know what everyone else uses).

First thing, Danowat, uncheck "combined pedals" in the windows options and select "separate" for throttle/brake axes in LFS. This way, you can use them at the same time to balance the car, or whatever. Now you have it so they work as a single axis, y for example, and can only do one at a time.

Second, someone else chime in on how to set up the DFP for 900 degrees. I don't have a DFP. You can either set the windows options up to match the car you are using, ie, racecars have smaller rotation than roadcars. Then set wheel turn to the same in LFS. Or, this is where others chime in as I'm not sure, you can set both at 900 degrees and use "wheel turn compensation" to have it automatically set to the rotation the car uses.

Next, I like the overall strength in windows and force strength in LFS you are using. I use similar, 60 in windows actually and adjust LFS 35-50 depending on car. I use 50 for FWD and the lower for RWD.

Windows spring effects strength. I go off the wall compared to the majority here and have mine set at 138% (is this the thread I explained a while ago this? ). Anyways, in RWD, I always had the feeling of the FF being lagged behind when the back end would break loose. I couldn't catch and countersteer at all. Someone back at RSC claimed the same feeling and found setting the spring effects strength high (above 100%) fixes this. I found that to be true and have been using it that way for months now. The majority may disagree, but some back then agreed and it fixed it for them and I've had some tell me it helped when I suggested it to them as well. The majority will say it should be set at 0%. Try it both ways and see for yourself.

Damper effects strength should be set at 0% period.

Centering spring (this simulates having a spring in the wheel to return it to center automatically like a non-force feedback wheel) should be UNCHECKED and set at 0%.

In LFS, I see you have "throttle and brake centre reduction" set at 25% (0.25). This should be set at 0.00.

One final thing. You don't show it in the pic, but click on "Axes/FF" where you assign the throttle, brake, and steering. At the bottom you should see "remove deadzones". Make sure you select "yes" for that. If not, you will have a deadzone and it will make the steering real goofy when you are trying to keep it going straight.

Hope that helps out. I'm sure as I type this and stop often to yell at the kids fighting, someone else probably beat me to it.

Quote from sinbad :

Also give it a try with much less wheel turn compensation. (I use 0.10, though I don't know what everyone else uses).

Wheel comp only have the negative non linear impact when the controller sterring lock is less than the natural wheel lock of the car you are in. If its the same there is no effect and if the wheel lock is greater than the car you keep linear steering but LFS just ignores the extra lock beyond the natural range.

Ok, let me paraphrase whats been said,

Firstly, yeah, I noticed the difference in "lock", I havent actually been driving that way, it was the result of taking screenshots at 2 different times while trying different settings.

Tonight I am going to try,

1) Set both CP and LFS to 720DEG
2) Uncheck combined axis
3) Keep turn comp at 1
4) Make sure remove deadzone is checked
5) Post shot of axes page.

Any comments on the above?, or anything else I should try?

P.S. Yes, its a DFP

Dan,

When you split up the brake and accelerator axis you'll notice a mssive improvement in the control you've got in corner entry. I changed mine recently too.

Quote from danowat :

Any comments on the above?, or anything else I should try?

P.S. Yes, its a DFP

Dan,

And remember to set Damper and Spring effects to 0%.

I think we really need a (un-)official steering wheel setup FAQ. So many players don't get the most out of LFS's FF because they're wheels are set up incorrectly. Someone volunteer to make one? Maybe it would be just a sticky post in the beginner section.

Quote from deggis :

And remember to set Damper and Spring effects to 0%.

I think we really need a (un-)official steering wheel setup FAQ. So many players don't get the most out of LFS's FF because they're wheels are set up incorrectly. Someone volunteer to make one? Maybe it would be just a sticky post in the beginner section.

Agreed that a sticky wheel FAQ in the beginner's section would be good. But as I say up in my post earlier, I don't agree with the Spring effects at 0%. So, it shouldn't be a "this is how you should have it!" but allow some proven "off the wall settings" to be said as well. I just suggested in another thread my Spring Strength settings to someone who is having a problem with the way the forces are acting. Perhaps it's a difference in PC's that make the few of us doing that do it, I don't know. Most of us are ok with the 0%, but a few do have problems with "occillation" and wierd feeling FF.

the wheel compensation at 1 is too much for the normal cars i believe, or atleast im used to lower values, i use 0.1 for all road cars and 0.5 or more in the formula cars.
how can you drive with the combined axis?? must be pretty weird hehe, hope you sort out those issues.

Quote from danowat :

Ok,

1) LFS has the best FF ever, it is so good that it could never be improved, its just like driving a real car.

2) In real life the steering wheel never goes light in understeer conditions

3) Everyother sim (possibly bar RBR) has rubbish FF.

Keep it up blinkered masses, the brain washing is working really well........

If anyone is doing the brainwashing it's ISI with their canned effects. All I know is that LFS tells me everything I need to know about the car and what it's doing thru my DFP. LFS feels like driving a car that actually has functional suspension - the other "sims" feel like hovercrafts once you turn off the canned effects. It's a shame that people think that ISI sims got it right. This is a sim right here fellas. Sure, some problems here but at least I can feel the suspension and that's pretty much all I need.

Quote from Barroso :

the wheel compensation at 1 is too much for the normal cars i believe, or atleast im used to lower values, i use 0.1 for all road cars and 0.5 or more in the formula cars.
how can you drive with the combined axis?? must be pretty weird hehe, hope you sort out those issues.

Wheel compensation only matters when using a wheel with a lower lock-to-lock distance than the car in LFS. For instance, using a Logitech Wingman with a 270* lock you would need compensation when driving any of the cars with >270* lock (most of the road cars). For people who use a DFP wheel compensation does not matter. Setting it at 0 or setting it at 1 both give the same effect because there is no compensation needed. 1 degree of wheel movement equals 1 degree of movement in-game, so long as the DFP is setup to use 720*.

thx for explaining, i have a msff and i certainly feel the difference, and i agree it must be different for other wheels, but who races with 720º??

Real drivers?

Vain

i think 540 fo the gtr cars, and 450 for formulas is much more realistic than 270.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Wheel compensation only matters when using a wheel with a lower lock-to-lock distance than the car in LFS. For instance, using a Logitech Wingman with a 270* lock you would need compensation when driving any of the cars with >270* lock (most of the road cars). For people who use a DFP wheel compensation does not matter. Setting it at 0 or setting it at 1 both give the same effect because there is no compensation needed. 1 degree of wheel movement equals 1 degree of movement in-game, so long as the DFP is setup to use 720*.

That is not quite true.

With wheel comp 0 and 720deg lock you will ALWAYS have 720 lock in every car

With wheel comp 1 and 720deg lock the steering lock will be updated to match that of the car you are in so 540 for GTR cars, 260ish for MRT etc. The lock outside of the cars range is ignored by LFS in this situation so you end up with the correct linear lock for the car.


You are right that you end up with non-linear when your wheel lock is less that the car you are in.