Quote from SamH :

Ahh.. okay. Umm.. gobby atheists sniff each others' bottoms. Hank isn't a gobby atheist.

That's about everything I said!

Magic, makes sense now see, if we all spoke like that, then no one would ever get confused.

Long live stupidity i say

Back from the pub. Bloodied knuckles. Those sodding Scientariologarian UFO cultists had it coming - oh, hi chaps. Didn't see you there.

Well, I'm glad you saw my point Sambo (and were able to relate it to our Mazz, bless him ). Yeah, I think some atheists get a little gobby and rant somewhat too much and step into the anti-theist camp. I'm certainly not out to convert people. People can do & think & believe & kneel before what they like until it starts affecting others' freedom to do the same. That's where lots of religions overstep the mark imho, like Christian fundies in the states trying to get Genesis-inspired creationism into science classes; some muslims pushing for sharia law in the UK; Jehovahs coming to my house uninvited on the assumption I'm going to hell and lots of other things (the doctrine of hell is the main reason my mum removed my brothers & I from sunday school - telling a child they'll roast forever is a pretty horrific thing for a young mind. Kudos, mum). Even when I was briefly religious, I still resented the local church coming into the school to preach at us through so-called "religious education seminars". The only true part of that phrase is the first word - the other two they should have replaced with "sermon" and cut the crap. If they were about "religious education" seminars why did we never hear from the buddhist monks down the road, the muslims from further down the road, the hippies from up the road or even from a different brand of Christian? A high school library is for reading Asterix or books about cars, playing D&D, avoiding large boys who want to kill you and occasionally homework. I didn't roll dice or read or think in or steal books from their church, the least they could've done was kept their sermons and beige pants and very neat hair out of my damn library.

Religion should be a personal, private thing. Make a public song & dance and demand special treatment; extra entitlements to respect; the right not to be offended by stupid cartoons; tax-free real estate or try and convert people door-to-door like you're selling broadband and you bring it out of the personal arena and into the public domain. Once you're out and bollocking on like you're the one person in the universe with The Truth and everyone else is going to hell or deserves death at your hands, you're fair game as far as I'm concerned.

Worst case scenario, right here: if you cost your own child her life because you'd rather chant to your deity than get her to a ****ing hospital, you should ****ing well burn in hell. Failing that, life in prison. Grr!

Quote from Hankstar :

Back from the pub. Bloodied knuckles. Those sodding Scientariologarian UFO cultists had it coming - oh, hi chaps. Didn't see you there.

Well, I'm glad you saw my point Sambo (and were able to relate it to our Mazz, bless him ). Yeah, I think some atheists get a little gobby and rant somewhat too much and step into the anti-theist camp. I'm certainly not out to convert people. People can do & think & believe & kneel before what they like until it starts affecting others' freedom to do the same. That's where lots of religions overstep the mark imho, like Christian fundies in the states trying to get Genesis-inspired creationism into science classes; some muslims pushing for sharia law in the UK; Jehovahs coming to my house uninvited on the assumption I'm going to hell and lots of other things (the doctrine of hell is the main reason my mum removed my brothers & I from sunday school - telling a child they'll roast forever is a pretty horrific thing for a young mind. Kudos, mum). Even when I was briefly religious, I still resented the local church coming into the school to preach at us through so-called "religious education seminars". The only true part of that phrase is the first word - the other two they should have replaced with "sermon" and cut the crap. If they were about "religious education" seminars why did we never hear from the buddhist monks down the road, the muslims from further down the road, the hippies from up the road or even from a different brand of Christian? A high school library is for reading Asterix or books about cars, playing D&D, avoiding large boys who want to kill you and occasionally homework. I didn't roll dice or read or think in or steal books from their church, the least they could've done was kept their sermons and beige pants and very neat hair out of my damn library.

Religion should be a personal, private thing. Make a public song & dance and demand special treatment; extra entitlements to respect; the right not to be offended by stupid cartoons; tax-free real estate or try and convert people door-to-door like you're selling broadband and you bring it out of the personal arena and into the public domain. Once you're out and bollocking oi n like you're the one person in the universe with The Truth and everyone else is going to hell or deserves death at your hands, you're fair game as far as I'm concerned.

Worst case scenario, right here: if you cost your own child her life because you'd rather chant to your deity than get her to a ****ing hospital, you should ****ing well burn in hell. Failing that, life in prison. Grr!

I am the God of my world (guess which movie that's from)

I dunno. I'm a very strong believer in evolution, but I find it hard to believe that all that is, that was and what will be is just... just because....
And as far as your "worst case scenario"... You know, we have quite a few of those types of people in the US. Even the people that let snakes bite them think those people are out there...
LOL you'd think those people would know if God wanted us to just pray for miracles during illness and medical emergencies, he wouldn't have sent Jesus to make house calls to heal people.
Jehova's Witnesses.... Once this one group came over and one of them was HOT... no lie. She looked like Paula Abdul before she discovered vicadan. Gave me these twisted fantasies of a sunday school teacher while she was going on and on about the Watchtower.... LOL my wife was in your neighborhood at the time, I was really tempted to go to a "prayer meeting" with her. My grandfather was a Southern Baptist preacher, when I was a kid, he baptised my cousin. I asked him if he'd do that for me. He told me that I'd never understand or appreciate the concept of salvation. Pretty hard stuff to tell a nine year old huh? He was right though. To this day I just can't understand why the good lord wants some borderline nutcase to dunk you before you can get to heaven.
Couldn't you just take a bath before you die?

oops... about the original post... I think religion is used as more of a propaganda tool to drum up popular support from people that may not necessarily agree to going to war otherwise. To use it as an attempt to justify going to war - but then again there's always Joan of Arc.

Trekkies may not go jihad on the the Star Wars nerds, but you really got to watch the Dr. Who fans.

Quote from SamH :

I think passive atheism is perfectly acceptable, but sadly most of my experiences of atheists have been rather aggressive and/or overbearing anti-bible-bashers.

Well you can also find the equivalent of that type of person in almost any subject that's got one or more sides to it and can be used to define a difference*, something that insecure people have the urge to cling on to. For every religion-obsessed atheist I know I also know a theist that actively turns every single conversation and tries to steer it towards religious grounds. I guess some people need to anchor themselves and define themselves against something**.

* racing sim preference comes to mind, as has been displayed multiple times in the past

** again racing sim preference comes to mind

Racer Y:Whosies are freaks, no doubt. But it's the Battlestar Galacticans you really gotta be wary of. Last time one of those guys came to my house he vanquished my frickin toaster and then accused me of being one! Took a lot to convince him I was 100% meat.

I can dig the feeling that all we can see may not be all there is. Once I ditched my own Jeebus-belief I gradually moved through a few different types of half-arsed spirituality & woo-woo concepts until I just gave up on it all. I realised I was expending way too much effort on what might come later and what might be behind the curtain. As Yoda would say: "Never his mind on where he was! What he was doing!"

Y'know, if all this crap is all there is, I'm fine with it. From the tiniest molecular machine to the most mind-boggling supermassive black hole to the simple, nice feeling I get when the light in my backyard turns a particular muted yellowish-green on cloudy afternoons after it's been raining, this universe of ours is pretty damn cool. If there's more than that I don't really need it, but I'll gladly welcome the surprise I mean, what if we are just figments of some giant squid's imagination as he floats around in a VR daze kilometres below the surface of the ocean? So what? Doesn't make our experiences any less real, at least as far as our puny non-squid brains can comprehend. We may as well make the most of it before ol' squiddy wakes up to go and wrestle a sperm whale, consigning us all to oblivion as if the program supporting us were never booted up. Life's simply too short to worship leprechauns, pray to fairies and try to avoid being sent to some infernal, eternal punishment which could only have been dreamed up by a bona fide psychopath.

All hail our squid overlords.

xaotik: for the record I would never define myself by what I don't believe and I would resent anyone else doing it on my behalf. I wouldn't base my life on the fact that I don't believe in honest TV evangelists That goes double for gods.

Quote from Hankstar :

xaotik: I will never define myself by what I don't believe. I wouldn't base my life on the fact that I don't believe in Thor, or honest TV evangelists

And then there's the lot that will try and steer the conversation to talking about themselves.

As much as I think that any religion is a sign of human stupidity and reversed evolution.... As much as I think that, if anything, religious types of activities and beliefs are getting more widespread instead of loosing ground.. As much as I fear that we're on a downslope as far as human intelligence is concerned....

I don't quite think religion caused all the wars. People have a tendency to be cruel and if we didn't invent religion, we'd wage wars because of disagreeing over .. carpets.. or what colour pencil should be the most common one.. I tend to think it is the selfish and cruel nature of some people, along with outright stupidity, that causes wars. Religion just tends to fit this description fairly well in the more extreme cases..

Quote from xaotik :

And then there's the lot that will try and steer the conversation to talking about themselves.

I can't help it because I rule. No steering involved anyway - all my conversations are about me and this one was no different. All hail ME.

Quote from Hankstar :

I mean, what if we are just figments of some giant squid's imagination as he floats around in a VR daze kilometres below the surface of the ocean? So what? Doesn't make our experiences any less real, at least as far as our puny non-squid brains can comprehend. We may as well make the most of it before ol' squiddy wakes up to go and wrestle a sperm whale, consigning us all to oblivion as if the program supporting us were never booted up. Life's simply too short to worship leprechauns, pray to fairies and try to avoid being sent to some infernal, eternal punishment which could only have been dreamed up by a bona fide psychopath.

All hail our squid overlords.

I think we should have an LFS meet and all go watch 'Horton Hears A Who'

Think it might answer a lot of questions raised in this thread. And it's a cartoon, so it'll keep me amused for an hour or two.

This thread kinda reminds me of the momentous and torturous ramblings on another forum I frequent.

Some poor sod asked a rather open ended question about Richard Dawkins, the 600 posts later the entire site underwent a state of quantum imbalance and f8cked off to create its own much more sensible universe.

Please dont resort to the level of http://www.ukc2.com/forums/

Thank You

Quote from Hankstar :

Religion should be a personal, private thing.

You have just denied religion its entire raison d'etre. Religion is a community thing. If everyone simply believed whatever they saw fit, but not ever tell others about it, there would be no religion.

Quote from Hankstar :

Last time one of those guys came to my house he vanquished my frickin toaster and then accused me of being one! Took a lot to convince him I was 100% meat.

Lol! Did you need a lot of stitches?

Quote from wsinda :

You have just denied religion its entire raison d'etre. Religion is a community thing. If everyone simply believed whatever they saw fit, but not ever tell others about it, there would be no religion.

Which would be bad how?

What I meant by "personal & private" was that religious people shouldn't arrogantly assume theirs is The One and that it needs to be foisted onto other people in schools, legislature and in their own homes. I've had various brands shoved in my face at various times in my life (and it still happens, but not often) and it was never welcome even when I was a believer. I don't evangelise about my nonbelief or try to de-convert the faithful (though I have been known to crap on a lot, especially if SamH is pushing my buttons and I've got a glass of shiraz next to me - ah, the 'net, blessed haven for drunken egomaniacs), I merely expect the same in return.

Quote from tristancliffe :

My feelings are, basically, the coldest, nastiest and war mongering humans have all been religious. Make of that what you will.

First you claim that "most" wars are caused by religion but when you are called out on it you can't name these wars. WWI? WWII? Vietnam? Napolianic Wars? Roman Conquests? Punic Wars?

Most wars are about land, territory, borders. Most of the remaining wars are struggles for political power--civil wars--communism vs. capitalism, democracy vs. totalitarianism, facism vs. socialism.

This is just fact. I hope you're fair enough to concede this point.

Now you claim that the "the coldest, nastiest and war mongering humans have all been religious"

All?

Let's name some of histories "nastiest" war mongers.

#1 Hitler: Most would agree that #1 on this list is Hitler. Hitler was NOT religious. He hated Christianity. He thought it was "weak." He hated Jews but not for religious reasons. He hated Jews, slavs, and all non-"Aryan" ethnic groups. Hitler believed in "survival of the fittest." Shall we blame Darwin?

#2 Genghis Kahn: Religious?

#3 Napolean: Religious or megalomaniac?

#4 Alexander the Great:

#5 Attila the Hun

How about some great mass murderers.

Joseph Stalin may be responsible for 50 Million deaths. Pol Pot a mere 2 Million intellectuals in Cambodia. Lenin and Mao were ruthless.

So, on my team of "most evil" non-religious people I'll take: Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot. Who is on your team?

Another myth about religion busted.

Myth busted? Not exactly. Religions don't start all wars (would be dishonest to assert that) but religions certainly make them worse. Faith is the common denominator here (and a seriously unbalanced psyche).

Simply: the problem with Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot etc wasn't their religion or lack of it. It was their absolute faith in their own twsited ideology combined with a ruthless thirst for power that drove them, not any apparent lack of religious belief. Why kill millions based on unbelief in god? Their dogmatism and unshakeable beliefs that they, above all, held the absolute truth and were deserving of ultimate power were the very antithesis of reason and logic (which where atheism springs from). It wasn't their alleged atheism that drove them to oppression & mass murder & genocide, it was their faith in their own ideology and their enormous greed. Faith - unreasonable belief - was the thing these men had in common. Whether it's unreasonable belief, either in gods or your own ideology or just your own greatness, faith can be as dangerous as an a-bomb.

Look at Hitler's last days or weeks in power in 1945. Berlin was being ravaged, his armies were depleted, starving, cut off, freezing or encircled and he was hearing constant reports of this. He refused to listen to the truth his generals were telling him, instead maintaining his absolute belief that the German people would prevail and drive the Russians out. His unshakeable belief in his own greatness and his ideology simply wouldn't allow him to see the truth of what was happening. When he did finally admit that all was lost, he blamed everyone but himself and took his own life.

Both religion and extremist political ideas have faith that they're absolutely true as a common factor. Both forms of dogma tend to attract megalomaniacal, greedy psychopaths to their upper echelons who will be ruthless about upholding their ideals. Extremism of any form is dangerous, but combine extreme politics with religion and nothing good can come of it.

Quote from Hankstar :

..

I concur wholeheartedly on all points. Sociopathological assertion on a grand scale.. and always fuelled by religion, ethnic differentiation, cultural incompatibilities and social divisions. These are the fuels that drive the engines of wars. When you want to wage a war, you have to find something to get your cannonfodder fired up over.

Quote from somasleep :

Another myth about religion busted.

hehe.. sorry, but the irony of that statement really made me chuckle!

Quote from Hankstar :

Myth busted? Not quite. Faith is the common denominator here (and a seriously unbalanced psyche).

Simply: the problem with Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot etc wasn't their religion or lack of it. It was their absolute faith in their own twsited ideology combined with a ruthless thirst for power that drove them, not any apparent lack of religious belief.

The words religion and Faith have clear meanings. You can't redefine words. Being arrogant is not a kind of faith. Your new definition of "faith" now includes arrogant atheists?

If you're intellectually honest you have to admit the idea that religion is the main cause of war or that history's worst killers were religious is false. Simple as that. No need to redefine words.

Moreover, what if you have faith in an ideology that says: Feed the poor, clothe the homeless, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, turn the other cheek, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. What's so bad about that?

Maybe the problem is not religion or atheism. It's the dark hard hearts of men. Greed, hatred, lust, jealousy, dishonesty.

Religion says that you can NEVER have a good society unless you have good people. Changing governments, social systems, and laws won't do a thing unless something is done about the human heart.

Religion rightly says that the problem is in the human heart and change must come from within the individual. The non-religious view is that changing social systems and governemnts (e.g. communism), external change, is what's needed.

I also want to add that Christianity is essentially a pacifist ("turn the other cheek" "Peter, drop your sword") ideology. It's ludicrous to lump Christianity in with Islam and Judaism. If we're fair and honest we have to concede that Christianity is essentially pacifistic and most people who call themselves Christian (e.g. George Bush) don't adhere to the basic teachings of their claimed religion.

Ah, another biased Christian blind to the past of 'their' religion...

Quote from somasleep :

I also want to add that Christianity is essentially a pacifist ("turn the other cheek" "Peter, drop your sword") ideology. It's ludicrous to lump Christianity in with Islam and Judaism. If we're fair and honest we have to concede that Christianity is essentially pacifistic and most people who call themselves Christian (e.g. George Bush) don't adhere to the basic teachings of their claimed religion.

Can't you say that about every religion?

Cup of tea..........check

Cigarettes..........check

Comfy chair........check

Ok, i'm all set....begin...

Quote from somasleep :

The words religion and Faith have clear meanings. You can't redefine words. Being arrogant is not a kind of faith. Your new definition of "faith" now includes arrogant atheists?

I'll judge and go by the dictionary (thus differencing faith and religion, and giving the proper, wider than simply religious meaning to the word faith)

If the arrogant atheists you're talking about are unwilling to challenge their own beliefs they're faithful, no matter if they're religious or not.

If they want to challenge their own beliefs, they simply may or may not be arrogant, and just as some arrogant or non-arrogant people, spot on.

Edit: I challenged and still challenge my own religious beliefs or disbeliefs. So far God didn't complain.

The crusades were peaceful excursions to the middle east, weren't they?

Quote from somasleep :

If you're intellectually honest you have to admit the idea that religion is the main cause of war or that history's worst killers were religious is false. Simple as that. No need to redefine words.

We're agreed there. I said exactly the same thing and always have - did you not read my lengthy and boring posts? Religion has started some wars and some of history's worst bastards have been religious, killed or oppressed in the name of their religion and/or used religion to motivate their cause. Some, not all, possibly not even the majority. I maintain that any kind of belief without reason, any kind of dogma or faith, whether it's religious or not, invariably makes human conflict worse. All kinds of people oppose abortion, but it's the Christian fundamentalists who bomb clinics and murder doctors, not the atheist anti-abortionists.

Quote :

Maybe the problem is not religion or atheism. It's the dark hard hearts of men. Greed, hatred, lust, jealousy, dishonesty.

We're agreed there too. My contention is merely that if you add "absolute faith" in anything, be it gods, a thousand-year Reich or a socialist utopia with you at its head, to that list of negative attributes, you add highly potent fuel to the flames.

Quote :

The words religion and Faith have clear meanings. You can't redefine words. Being arrogant is not a kind of faith. Your new definition of "faith" now includes arrogant atheists?

You simply can't have religion without faith. A religion based on reason & evidence & logic isn't a religion, it's an oxymoron. But you can have faith without religion, such as the faith in the political ideas I've already described. Hitler's unshakeable faith in his eventual victory needlessly destroyed many thousands of lives, long after his war was lost. Lenin's faith in a Marxist dream brought an age of despotism to Russia. Kim Il Sung's own faith in pseudo-Marxism (and possibly in his own semi-divine greatness) brought an age of oppression that continues to this day in North Korea. My definition of "faith" echoes that of most dictionaries: it's a belief in a proposition that isn't supported by evidence.

Atheists, arrogant or otherwise, don't indulge in faith. Whatever they believe about anything needs evidence, which negates the need for faith.

Quote from zeugnimod :

Can't you say that about every religion?

No. Judaism and Islam both teach that adulterers should be stoned to death. It's Jesus who says, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

But Christianity gets absolutely no credit from the secular world for this kind of radical tolerance.

But that is another topic. My claim here is that the idea that religion is the main cause of wars or mass murderes is an argument without merit.

The Iraq War was caused by a border dispute between Iraq and Kuwait. Nothing to do with religion.

WWII -- history's worst war began when Hitler invaded Poland. This had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with racism and nationalism.

The true culprit is greed, selfishness, and hatred. The dark and hard human heart. That's the ultimate cause of genocide and mass murder.

What can we do about greed and selfishness? That's the problem that religion tries to solve. But it's not an easy problem.

The Old Testament is still part of Christian teachings, so there's no point in pleading Christian innocence. Besides, there's no point in pleading Christian innocence anyway. The Christian church has always had the wealth and means to do some serious good in the world and yet it sits on its wealth, investing in companies like Nestlé and many others, following its long tradition of exploitation, particularly in the third world (the same bunch of people who made millions from the slave trade). So who's responsible for the attrocities of the "Church"? It's the "Church" and its sponsors. Yes, the self-righteous supporters of that "Church", the Christians. "Turn the other cheek"? Looks and smells more like "look the other way" to me.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Ah, another biased Christian blind to the past of 'their' religion...

a past that doesnt invalidate his argument that according to the bible god directly ordered christians to be peaceful
youre making the mistake of equating christianity the 2000 year old institution with the ethics behind it

Quote from Hankstar :

Atheists, arrogant or otherwise, don't indulge in faith. Whatever they believe about anything needs evidence, which negates the need for faith.

arent you contradicting yourself there? according to all youve said before atheists are perfectly capable of having faith in all sorts of things many of which have a little evidence as god... be it their own divinity the superiority of their race and all the other examples you gave