Tracks will be more interesting if a small drop off into the dirt existed around the entire perimeter of most or all of the tracks. The drop off, similar to the one at Fern Bay Green after the fast corner with the red and white rumble strip (default textures), will make the track seem like it is actually paved instead of just imposed into the environment. This track feature will add to the immersion into the satisfying illusion of Live For Speed that the users are driving on a real track.

The current track edges, contributes to making LFS look "sanitized"(also here) as said in the thread. Also, maintaining control of the car if a driver runs too wide is fairly easy, even with zero run off experience.

This suggestion is not just cosmetic, not only will the tarmac drop off add a more realistic feel to the sim experience, the feature will also add more of a consequence for dropping the tires off at the exit. It does this by making a driver have to fight the force (w/wheel) of the curb while unstable from the dirt. This could also cause the car to spin if the rear tire gets caught out in the dirt. The dropping the tires will make the driver fear getting too close to the edge while breaking in to corners and give the sensation of "maybe I should easy off the the throttle" on corner exit.

The tarmac drop off will better the experience and hopefully motivate more people to purchase and, intern, support the development of Live For Speed.

I tried to sell the suggestion as best as I could to make it seem more tantalizing for whoever read my thread, even if it has been suggested before. However they are, in my opinion, valid arguments with more than just the "I WANT THIS IN LFS" feel of suggestion.

I agree

Edges of the track are too tame, grass is too smooth, etc

I posted recently about the fake grass (concrete) runoff areas being to similar to tarmac also.
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=40333


And I think your 100% correct the line where tarmac meets dirt needs to have some bite

+1.

Quote from Glenn67 :

I agree

Edges of the track are too tame, grass is too smooth, etc

I posted recently about the fake grass (concrete) runoff areas being to similar to tarmac also.
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=40333


And I think your 100% correct the line where tarmac meets dirt needs to have some bite

I agree to the fake grass as well. These little features would do more than what one would think. Its the little details that makes racing so fun and interesting.

I can see all the threads about how LFS is sUCK when they make the grass, fake or not, slippery and bumpy.

But I would really like it if the grass wasn't so forgiving. More bumps, less traction.

+1 to more detailed tracks, with more bumps, dirt and overall 'feeling'.
Right now they somehow feel like duct tape on grass/sand, however they're still nice, but miss the 'raw' or 'visceral' feel, considering the 'age' of the cars we race on. New cars do actually feel so neutral that it feels clinical indeed, but it should feel more like real tracks with dirt, bumps and 80's or early 90's cars.

Quote from March Hare :

I can see all the threads about how LFS is sUCK when they make the grass, fake or not, slippery and bumpy.

But I would really like it if the grass wasn't so forgiving. More bumps, less traction.

We're talking about the green asphalt that is supposed to be grass like at KY, not about how the grass is "fake."

Quote from DeMS :

+1 to more detailed tracks, with more bumps, dirt and overall 'feeling'.
Right now they somehow feel like duct tape on grass/sand, however they're still nice, but miss the 'raw' or 'visceral' feel, considering the 'age' of the cars we race on. New cars do actually feel so neutral that it feels clinical indeed, but it should feel more like real tracks with dirt, bumps and 80's or early 90's cars.

Or dangerous-Armco and sketchy-dirt-banks that lined the track in corners like how Sears Point used to be.

Quote from March Hare :

I can see all the threads about how LFS is sUCK when they make the grass, fake or not, slippery and bumpy.

But I would really like it if the grass wasn't so forgiving. More bumps, less traction.

who cares about those people? we also need rubber in tarmac so that the racing line grips better

There's a road near my house that is asphalt, and then turns into loose gravel. It's a pretty large drop, I didn't see the drop and hit it at 30mph or so and it was almost painful to go off the drop.

^^
l l
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Exactly!

So let me get this straight.

1. Are you talking about the FE turn in the first pic?
Where there is a drop off from the tarmac to the grass. I've parked the car there.
You would like all the places that tarmac meets grass/dirt to be like that one?

2. Then there is the tarmac that is painted green, like in the second pic?
This should be turned into grass? Again the Xrg marks the spot.

3. Some corners have concrete that has grass growing though it. XRG.
What about these? I think they should have less grip than tarmac.

I'm all for more bumps on every surface. The drop off on the edge of the track sounds good. It would make recovering a bit more demanding so you would be more inclined to keep the four black things on the black stuff.

Quote from March Hare :

So let me get this straight.

1. You would like all the places that tarmac meets grass/dirt to be like that one?

Yes, I'd like at least most corner exits to be less gental where the tarmac and grass meet.

2. Then there is the tarmac that is painted green, like in the second pic? This should be turned into grass?

No that's fine as it is imo.

3. Some corners have concrete that has grass growing though it. What about these? I think they should have less grip than tarmac.

Agree entirely even if both surfaces have similar grip the fact that grass is growing through and it has less area in contact with the tyre should mean it has alot less grip than smooth tarmac and be rougher when getting abit sideways.

In general also the grass areas are too smooth and need to be roughed up imo an off in an open wheeler should be bad in general and in a sedan it should be more adventurous

I'd go further, at least for single seaters or any class using "road race" or slick tyres.

Off line rubber marbles on the track.

The racing line is to lenient on a lot of tracks people take no risk going completely off it to out brake you in to a corner for example. In a real race, (of certain classes anyway), they would be out on the dirty part of the track and have less grip.

Of course this would have to be dynamic. ie the track is clean (ish) at the begining of the race with off line debris building up as the race progressed.

I'd agree entirely with that gezmoor, but that is a seperate improvement suggestion and has been suggested and discussed many times. I do hope all these are implemented in the furture though

you could notice that there are places like that at FE - see attachment. But I also posted it several times - far too few, especially at club track like FE (furthermore, ppl are using desert mod for this track - it will suit perfectly)

Marbles I think come with dynamic track conditions - we will not see it long time - due to average processor capabilities.

Quote from March Hare :

So let me get this straight.

1. Are you talking about the FE turn in the first pic?
Where there is a drop off from the tarmac to the grass. I've parked the car there.
You would like all the places that tarmac meets grass/dirt to be like that one?

2. Then there is the tarmac that is painted green, like in the second pic?
This should be turned into grass? Again the Xrg marks the spot.

3. Some corners have concrete that has grass growing though it. XRG.
What about these? I think they should have less grip than tarmac.

I'm all for more bumps on every surface. The drop off on the edge of the track sounds good. It would make recovering a bit more demanding so you would be more inclined to keep the four black things on the black stuff.

Those are correct!

Quote from AndRand :

Marbles I think come with dynamic track conditions - we will not see it long time - due to average processor capabilities.

Actually, most of what is required is already in place. There is already a dynamic darker path that builds up during a race based on the most used area of the track. I am not talking about the skid marks here.

So this line could be used to have the "clean" racing line where the darker it is the "cleaner" it is and further from the dynamic line offers less grip. Currently this is client side so would need to be reflected to all clients from the server but that could be as simple of x number of points around the track and simple splines used to join the dots.

So not that much CPU is required above what there is at the mo

thats right - what I head on my mind was that there are no marbles (and rubbered racing line) before racing weekend, especially when there was raining couples days before.

It would be nice to be dynamic but even static would be great - and a great step towards dynamic track conditions - all of them would be applied (marbles, rubber, dirt), next step would be to variate them.

and I would like this issue to be considered by devs from that perspective

furthermore - with this done amount of variations would be just slighly bigger than it is now - we have skidmarks,they would expand to rubbering, and added marblesand dirt. those with two more parameters - "ambient" wind and created by moving objects. And thats it.

I think even moist could be done also similar way - light shower is ambient, drying is similar to rubbering and skidmarks.

Rain is much different as it moves, water gathers in pools, much different wet tyre physics.

Quote from Woz :

Actually, most of what is required is already in place. There is already a dynamic darker path that builds up during a race based on the most used area of the track.

Problem is, that dynamic visual rubber path is unique to each user. A fresh install of LFS has clean tracks, and the most frequent racers probably have corners with jet black streaks around them.

So the server would have to send the rubber path to the client each time you connected. And then what happens if two different servers are running different classes that put rubber down on slightly different lines or in slightly different places? You could have two servers running (eg) AS2 but each with subtle but significant differences. Yet, aren't they supposed to be the same track? Should one AS2 not drive the same as AS2 on another server? So, maybe the rubber file should be global and retrieved from the master/LFSW server? Or would it be preferable to keep it unique to each server?

Not meaning to piss on your suggestion here - I'd love to see a dynamic grip line and marbles introduced too - just providing some food for thought.

Come to think of it, if dynamic track conditions were combined with dynamic weather, I guess it would make sense for each server to have it's own rubber file. If ServerX is running AS2 with the weather permanently set to "hot and dry", it should have much more grip/rubber laid down than ServerY which is set to "typically wet/changeable sh*t English weather" and would be quite a green track in comparison. So another question is, how do you convey this information to the player? A real driver would surely have some idea of what state the track was in and what the weather had been like recently before they even step in the car.

Quote from STROBE :

So, maybe the rubber file should be global and retrieved from the master/LFSW server? Or would it be preferable to keep it unique to each server?

Quote :

If ServerX is running AS2 with the weather permanently set to "hot and dry", it should have much more grip/rubber laid down than ServerY which is set to "typically wet/changeable sh*t English weather" and would be quite a green track in comparison.

so... server specific rain rate... i mean refresh rate

Quote from STROBE :

Problem is, that dynamic visual rubber path is unique to each user. A fresh install of LFS has clean tracks, and the most frequent racers probably have corners with jet black streaks around them.

So the server would have to send the rubber path to the client each time you connected. And then what happens if two different servers are running different classes that put rubber down on slightly different lines or in slightly different places? You could have two servers running (eg) AS2 but each with subtle but significant differences. Yet, aren't they supposed to be the same track? Should one AS2 not drive the same as AS2 on another server? So, maybe the rubber file should be global and retrieved from the master/LFSW server? Or would it be preferable to keep it unique to each server?

Not meaning to piss on your suggestion here - I'd love to see a dynamic grip line and marbles introduced too - just providing some food for thought.

Come to think of it, if dynamic track conditions were combined with dynamic weather, I guess it would make sense for each server to have it's own rubber file. If ServerX is running AS2 with the weather permanently set to "hot and dry", it should have much more grip/rubber laid down than ServerY which is set to "typically wet/changeable sh*t English weather" and would be quite a green track in comparison. So another question is, how do you convey this information to the player? A real driver would surely have some idea of what state the track was in and what the weather had been like recently before they even step in the car.

You would only have to send the rubber path once each race start. The path would update as long as you have "update path all cars" on. As for the same track on different servers, the path would have to be independent for each server because of the different racing lines people take for the different cars.

But it would be really cool to have a master path for each track sent by LFSW.

+1 :d:d

Quote from STROBE :

So the server would have to send the rubber path to the client each time you connected.

the rubber path files are ~10kb in size... far smaller than skins so it could be easily done
additionally with the clients being able to predict fairly well how the line changes updates could be done with minimal costs as well

trouble is the server would have to do physics

Quote from Shotglass :

the rubber path files are ~10kb in size... far smaller than skins so it could be easily done
additionally with the clients being able to predict fairly well how the line changes updates could be done with minimal costs as well

trouble is the server would have to do physics

Just have the server maintain the path and send in realtime.

The path could easily be represented by a few 100 points spaced around the track where each point is x, y + rubbing width and marble levels etc. These points are just connected by splines as I said before.

The server can update all clients a few points at a time in the bandwidth it would take to push around 1 cars worth of data to clients.

Quick, simple live track with central managed live track and all clients in sync in realtime