If I understand it right they want iRacing to be a practicing/training tool for people who are racing or at least participating in a lot of track days. If somebody has the money to race a car or take it to track days regularly he/she has the money for iRacing too and it's cheaper than any trackdays or races. These people are their target audience and if they choose iRacing the devs will see a lot of money in a very short time. However to do this iRacing must have incredibly precise tracks, physics and damage. I am not so sure how they were able to fit all these things in a computer program that calculates physics and damage in real-time while displaying the highly detailed track and top of that runs good on a normal PC.

Quote from _--NZ--_[HUN] :

If I understand it right they want iRacing to be a practicing/training tool for people who are racing or at least participating in a lot of track days. If somebody has the money to race a car or take it to track days regularly he/she has the money for iRacing too and it's cheaper than any trackdays or races. These people are their target audience and if they choose iRacing the devs will see a lot of money in a very short time. However to do this iRacing must have incredibly precise tracks, physics and damage. I am not so sure how they were able to fit all these things in a computer program that calculates physics and damage in real-time while displaying the highly detailed track and top of that runs good on a normal PC.

No - if someone has the money and time to race or go to track days then they probably don't have any money [left over] for over-priced racing games.

Professional racing drivers spend every waking second (and plenty of sleeping ones) thinking about their racing, analysing it etc. And then they have to do the sponsor thing, or a job to earn that money, and possibly even help out on the car (depending on the exact professional status - plenty of people make their living driving racing cars, but still have to get stuck into the greasy bis each evening).

This simulation is ultimately marketed at the same group of people as most other racing games - those with spare cash, spare time, and a desire to go racing without all the hassle and lack of track time (and risk).

Do some real racers fit into the catagory? Yes, certainly. But to say real racers are the target audience is silly.

Unless it IS the target audience, in which case iRacing won't last long before the bailiffs come out to play.

They kinda mention the target group on their site

Quote :

...iRacing.com's primary audience is the global motorsport market, including professional and amateur drivers, engineers and other industry professionals, as well as racing fans around the world. Within North America, that market includes an estimated 451,000 active participants with a median household income of $98,500 and well-established brand loyalty. But iRacing.com's reach extends well beyond the racing enthusiast and the confines of the North American continent.

...

Importantly, the PC-gamer profile more closely resembles the motorsport demographic than it does the commonly held stereotypes. The average gamer is 33 years old, 44 percent are between 18 and 49, and 69 percent of American heads of households play computer and video games. Average household income is $71,400.

http://www.iracing.com/partners.htm

Quote from The Moose :

I don't quite get it....what sort of person are they trying to keep away?

Lets see....you have the highly enthusiastic, dedicated sim racer like me who cant afford to race it, and the loaded with cash twat who can afford to race it Who would they prefer on their servers?

I completely agree all I see is a load of annoying little rich kids with maybe the odd rich businessman, who reckons he's a racing driver just because he has a pay drive (and usually spends most of the time looking like a tit at the back of the grid in the fastest car). The typical amateur and semi-professional racer spends far too much time already going racing, testing and preparing cars, they don't have time or spare cash to do virtual racing as well.

Quote from ajp71 :

I completely agree all I see is a load of annoying little rich kids with maybe the odd rich businessman,

Good greif, you said the word "rich" twice. You do not have to be rich to afford $15usd/mo.

It's very simple, if iRacing is what is claims to be, then it's worth that pittance of cash they'll be charging. Time will tell. Surely they're aware of the fact that the demographic(s) they're targeting will know if they are being duped or not. They must be awfully confident about the product to market it this way, which imo is actually a good sign.

As far as keeping people away, it's not about the cost per se. Pooptons of little brats play World of Warcraft, and it costs the same. It's more about the product vs the cost. People will not pay to play a racing SIM where they can't make T1 to save their ass. It keeps away people (generally, exceptions always happen) who have no idea about racing and are not enthusiastic about the sport. WoW works because it appeals to all types of people. Racing sims do not appeal to many types of people, so putting a price on it will be quite effective at weeding out those not serious about racing. Who's going to pay monthly fees to get constant penalties, DQ's, talking tos from marshalls etc etc. Generally, people who cannot enjoy the product will not pay for it (!), and that's the point.

Granted there will always be the odd person who's excluded who shouldn't be, but really.... $15USD/MO? Come on, if you can't afford that, or are not willing to, then I don't know what to tell you .

The "damage control" in this thread is amusing. If you couldn't afford iRacing, you wouldn't be able to afford Internet either. Then we wouldn't hear all the complaints and bitching.

Quote :

It's very simple, if iRacing is what is claims to be, then it's worth that pittance of cash they'll be charging.

Exactly.

I'm confused by the term "damage control". How do you mean?

Quote from Ahriman4891 :

The "damage control" in this thread is amusing. If you couldn't afford iRacing, you wouldn't be able to afford Internet either. Then we wouldn't hear all the complaints and bitching.

Internet (here, at least) is between £15 - £30 a month - which is a little more than iRacing. However iRacing is, at the end of the day, a game - I (and most people do, I imagine) use the internet (be it MSN, gaming, websites etc) MUCH more than I use any game. In fact if it wasn't for the Internet I wouldn't have any cash as I make all my money via 'tinterweb.

Quote from Jakg :

Internet (here, at least) is between £15 - £30 a month - which is a little more than iRacing. However iRacing is, at the end of the day, a game - I (and most people do, I imagine) use the internet (be it MSN, gaming, websites etc) MUCH more than I use any game. In fact if it wasn't for the Internet I wouldn't have any cash as I make all my money via 'tinterweb.

Who cares which one is more utilitarian? That's not the point, and was never the question from what I can discern...

Quote from SamH :

I'm confused by the term "damage control". How do you mean?

I mean somehow


"Damage control" is IIRC a navy term for rapid reaction to a potentially threatening event. iRacing is about the only game that could challenge LFS as the ultimate realism sim, given the resumes of people behind it. Still, instead of getting excited, lots of supposedly hardcore people "run to the rescue" of LFS by means of bitching about every single aspect of iRacing -- at least that's my perception. Pricing, track scanning, graphics (LFS people complaining about graphics is a huge LOL in itself -- plus iRacing is not finished yet, an excuse that should be familiar to us, of all people).

I really like LFS but I'm not a fanboi. I probably won't subscribe to iRacing, since I don't play racing sims exclusively and iRacing's cost per hour of play would be kinda high for me (although who knows). But I don't agree with the whole "overpriced" sentiment. I do think they need a free demo, though.

For once I agree with BBT. Not about creation or any of that, y'know, I mean really, but just about this.

It seems a lot of you are concerned that this is going to be a great sim that you're either too skint or too tight to pay for. Ultimately it's their business that will stand or fall as a result. It's not like your government is levying a fifteen buck sim-racing tax - you can either choose to pay for it or not.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

It seems a lot of you are concerned that this is going to be a great sim that you're either too skint or too tight to pay for.

TBH, i see nothing so far that makes me think it's going to be ground breaking enough to make it worth the money.

They obviously have to charge what they are due to the astronomical cost of laser scanning the tracks.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Good greif, you said the word "rich" twice. You do not have to be rich to afford $15usd/mo.

Of course nearly everybody has $15 disposable income a month so if they really wanted to nobody would be left out. iRacing is not the only racing sim on the market though and it is a lot more expensive than any of the non-subscription options. Personally the amount of time I sim race is very variable, I just race when I feel like it and have some free time. There would be months when I wouldn't race at all, and presumably you'll have to keep subscribing to keep your account/license status, looking at your LFSW you'd have spent $75 for nothing if your LFS usage is anything to go by.

Quote from Ahriman4891 :

"Damage control" is IIRC a navy term for rapid reaction to a potentially threatening event. iRacing is about the only game that could challenge LFS as the ultimate realism sim, given the resumes of people behind it. Still, instead of getting excited, lots of supposedly hardcore people "run to the rescue" of LFS by means of bitching about every single aspect of iRacing -- at least that's my perception. Pricing, track scanning, graphics (LFS people complaining about graphics is a huge LOL in itself -- plus iRacing is not finished yet, an excuse that should be familiar to us, of all people).

We can't tell very much about iRacing atm, I think it could (and should) challenge LFS given the past record and the fact it has been 5 years in development. There's no real evidence atm though about what has actually changed, laser track scanning and virtual wind tunnels sound impressive but doesn't really mean anything other than increased costs if the underlying sim hasn't been developed properly. Given the comparative head start they had over LFS, which was barely a proper sim at that stage, the result should be amazing but I'm not interested unless I can try it first and even then it would have to be a lot better and have a good community for me to consider buying it.

Quote from Ahriman4891 :

I mean somehow


"Damage control" is IIRC a navy term for rapid reaction to a potentially threatening event. iRacing is about the only game that could challenge LFS as the ultimate realism sim, given the resumes of people behind it.

Hmm I getcha. Damage limitation

I'm a hardcore LFS fanbwoi, but I'm not remotely aversed to the idea of iRacing. From what I have seen so far, it seems increasingly clear that despite the nicheness of sim racing as a whole, there's almost no overlap between iRacing and LFS regarding the userbase. Even if there is, racing sims are not mutually exclusive and many LFSers are also ardent rF enthusiasts and GPL fans.

Putting on my fanbwoi specs for a moment, any increase in the awareness and/or acceptance of sim racing (making the distinction from Race 07, which is regarded by its creators as a "game" rather than a "simulation") as a pastime with value is more than likely to benefit LFS. This is most especially going to be the case in the US market, where LFS has not had significant exposure or made significant impact.

Even as an LFS fanbwoi, I can be concerned for iRacing that the pricing model that iRacing has chosen may not work. And it can be genuine concern, too.. if subscriptions fall at any point due to a lack of racers to race with (which most certainly would have been the case with rF and nKP, and several other recent games, if they'd followed this pricing model) is likely to be an exponential curve downwards by month.

So, frankly, I'm quite excited by the prospect of iRacing. However, due to Kev's extortionately expensive mooring fees, I will have to wait for people I trust in this community to convey whether or not the iRacing model is worth the investment and if it's likely to be self-sustaining Basically, I do genuinely hope that iRacing is as good as its makers are making it out to be, both in press release and sales approach.. and that they really aren't just freakin' stupid to do it this way

Quote from ajp71 :

laser track scanning and virtual wind tunnels sound impressive but doesn't really mean anything other than increased costs

This is a core concern of mine. The underlying technology to deliver the tracks is seriously "forefront", according to iRacing. However, in order to have the track in a form that will run on a home PC (which they promise it will) will definitely need a lot of simplification from the original point cloud they've created. The cost of creating the .25Bn point cloud needs recouping, but it's impossible to use it. It's like spending on a 747 and climbing into a Cessna. The end-user will ultimately pay the development costs, but will they get what they've paid for?

Quote from thisnameistaken :

For once I agree with BBT.

:jawdrop:

hehe, we agree on lots of things, just not one thing.

Quote :

It seems a lot of you are concerned that this is going to be a great sim that you're either too skint or too tight to pay for. Ultimately it's their business that will stand or fall as a result. It's not like your government is levying a fifteen buck sim-racing tax - you can either choose to pay for it or not.

Quote from The Moose :

TBH, i see nothing so far that makes me think it's going to be ground breaking enough to make it worth the money.

Great - what have you seen? A few screens? An old video?
Please enlighten me as to the physics (tires, aero), sounds, damage, netcode, league / organizational sytem, and the plethora of other things that noone has any idea about yet. Of course you haven't seen anything to make you think those things, it's not out yet. Noone has.

Quote from ajp71 :

Presumably you'll have to keep subscribing to keep your account/license status, looking at your LFSW you'd have spent $75 for nothing if your LFS usage is anything to go by.

Why presume that?

Indeed, my online LFS usage is next to nothing for the last X months (since Sept I think). I only play LFS for the odd offline stint now & then. My G25 is back in it's box until I move April 30th. However if, and again if, iRacing is something that approaches what they're aiming for then I'll have a notable reason to setup the wheel again.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Great - what have you seen? A few screens? An old video?
Please enlighten me as to the physics (tires, aero), sounds, damage, netcode, league / organizational sytem, and the plethora of other things that noone has any idea about yet. Of course you haven't seen anything to make you think those things, it's not out yet. Noone has.

Actually, this is very much the issue really. That IS all we've seen, and there is some concern because of it. The term "vaporware" was originally coined, I believe, in reference to products that Microsoft claimed were readying for release, but in truth were actually only concepted. We're flying on some big promises here, and varying from cautious optimism to bare pessimism (largely, I suspect, depending on whether the individual bought and got thoroughly burned by nKP). The big promise of things to come is no stranger in the Sim racing community, and there's lots of justification for emotive suspicion, even though nothing at all ties iRacing to Kunos - except a huge amount of bigging up before release. And that's the point. Rightly or wrongly, the sim racing community has baggage.

[edit] Oh, and we're cynical bastards on a good day, too.

Quote from ajp71 :

presumably you'll have to keep subscribing to keep your account/license status

That's a very unlikely assumption. I don't know of any MMORPG's, for example, that erase your account when you stop paying. It should just be frozen, and this will be the case unless their marketing managers are utter retards and don't deserve their title. There is absolutely no reason to incorporate that type of account, whatsoever, and anyone working on a project like iRacing will absolutely know that.

Quote from SamH :

largely, I suspect, depending on whether the individual bought and got thoroughly burned by nKP

I think that was a lesson for me and quite a few others here, the original nK was fantastic if lacking in some areas and seemed to be done by an absolute perfectionist, I still play it occasionally today. nK Pro was a sloppy unfinished product that was worse than the free original didn't play properly at all on my computer of the time and still feels so incomplete despite having loads of potential with no support to this day. Now with iRacing it's a longer wait and a larger jump into the unknown with a lot larger financial commitment being asked.

Fair enough, but iRacing is in no way comparable to nKp as a project in terms of scale and resources. When one person, or a handful of people make big claims - I'm not all that surprized to get let down. There hasn't been an "iRacing" in the past per se, so it's a little strange to paint it with the same brush as failed indy projects. Before anyone gets on the "large corporation blah blah" bandwagon, no one has claimed what iRacing is claiming before, and really, that is WHY they have to charge what they do. Yes they've had massive investment and they have things to pay for, but they are aware that not eveyone is going to want to play their sim, and ultimately that really has to be the reason for the charge.

Simracing is a niche market, and if you're going to throw the kind of money at developing a product for that market that actually, for once, does everything properly (not BS tires, or incomplete models of this or that, or subpar graphics etc) - money normally reserved for massmarketed shootemups or arcade racers, then the price HAS to go up or it will never happen. I'm sick of halfassed work - a nKp that may or may not run, a GTR with lolwtftires, an LFS with half of this, half of that, and shaded poly cylinder springs etc etc. No one has actually ever been successful in making a complete, proper sim. If iRacing turns out to be just that (and I am not saying it is, but it has an immeasurably better chance of being that than anything else promised in the past), then I'll be sure to have signed cheques ready with postage already on them. (just an expression... I'm sure paypal will work)

From my point of view it's simply far to early to tell whether it's worth a monthly subscription or not. And i won't be able to find that out until it's properly installed on my HD and i've driven nose first into the nearest wall at extremely high speed.

But my concern at this stage with only propaganda to go on. (and it's been said before, and i'm sure will be said again) I'm uneasy as to why they won't be releasing a free demo ? If their product really is as good as they think and say it is, then surely they'd have no worries about giving us a free taster ? Even drug dealers are wise to that one !

Quote from ajp71 :

(...) and presumably you'll have to keep subscribing to keep your account/license status, (...)

Absolutely no reason to presume that, as it has been confirmed by an iracing official that your account/license status will freeze if you don't subscribe. Everything you had before the break will be there waiting for you if you decide to come back.

This is not to say that I'm particularly fond of the pricing scheme as such. I'd rather have a piece of software on my harddisk that I can use whenever I feel like. And I WANT a free demo. Definitely. But I also think that 15$ is not all that much, tbh.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Great - what have you seen? A few screens? An old video?
Please enlighten me as to the physics (tires, aero), sounds, damage, netcode, league / organizational sytem, and the plethora of other things that noone has any idea about yet. Of course you haven't seen anything to make you think those things, it's not out yet. Noone has.

well what we have seen is a lot of marketing and all that achieves is making me say "really?" with a very long e

truth is we havent seen anything solid yet and from what ive gathered we wont get to see anything solid unless we pay 20$ for one month which reminds me a lot of pyramid schemes, life changing seminars that require you to pay a small fee and the like

Quote from Shotglass :

truth is we havent seen anything solid yet and from what ive gathered we wont get to see anything solid unless we pay 20$ for one month which reminds me a lot of pyramid schemes, life changing seminars that require you to pay a small fee and the like

And the bad thing is, they will probably get away with it as there seem to be quite a few people who are obviously willing to buy without trying.

Community (not official) FAQ, lots of new info:

http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=314586

Quote :

Where Are The Servers?

The servers are all based in the US and have been successfully tested worldwide.

So good luck players with less than 2 MBit dsl.

Quote :

How Do I Advance?

You advance to advanced rookie cars as soon as your safety rating is high enough. You can then advance to what is called Class D racing until your first full season begins. You earn a Class D license at the end of the rookie season if your safety rating is high enough even if you didn't earn in during your rookie stint.

They must have seriously unrealistic expectations. Think about LFS, one of the most active regarding online players... and yet still has problems finding active servers with cars you like. That subscription is already going to reduce players and yet they still divide them to oval / road racing, and several different classes and obviously not many will buy every track / car.