Umm.. I'm sure there's a few Olde Englishe witches through history would like to contest that, actually. In fact, everywhere that Christianity spread (including the Goths starving and sacking Rome) it did either through conquest or social coersion.. often very bloodily.. often very sadistically. It's a great exercise in revisionism to claim Christianity has a history of passive expansion.
rotf
So do you believe in God. I wonder if you could try and say why? This is a genuine request.
The way I see it, Christians believe there is an entity that is "good" but that is happy to watch his creations fight, harm and kill each other and that is happy to even watch his own son tortured and killed by his own creations. He even tried to wipe of most of the planet to "reset" once. How is that good.
With the millions of planets in the Universe why only "play" his big game of "The Sims" on earth?
If "The Sims" is only running on earth then why waste time creating all the other planets?
It took him a fair bit of time just create the earth so given that how long did it take to create the rest of the universe or is that just low LOD models knowing we will never get close to some of it?
I believe what I can understand and that can be measured and proven. So not God. That said, if a proof was found for God then the scientific would would be forced to accept that. Guess what, no proof yet, not even a shred.
The big bang has possibilities but the bets are still off at the mo. We KNOW and can MEASURE that the universe IS expanding which adds to the bangs credibility BUT still more PROOF is required. It is still just a theory at the moment, not a proof. Both very different things.
Science is like that. Even a proof than has been accepted for decades or longer can be rejected when a better proof is found.
So do you believe there is life on ANY other planet in the universe or did God ONLY populate a single planet?
I am not saying there is other life or what it might be like BUT there is a possibility that if life started on Earth it is LOGICAL that given the same conditions elsewhere it will start there as well given the huge size of the universe it is probable.
It has NOTHING to do with unfeeling
Yes there are sheep in the atheist camp that accept everything they are told, just like those with religious belief. But there are also those that question everything and when they find flaws they dig and probe to explain these holes.
(Mazz4200)
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by Mazz4200
Ever played SimCity? Noticed how satisfying it is to annihilate your city by repeatedly clicking the disaster button? Now we at least know why
I'll bet there's not one person on the planet who doesn't know who Mickey Mouse is, so what does that prove ?
Western Culture, as a pure guess, i'd say that's about 1/4 of the worlds population so lets not get too self centred here.
Where ?
You could say the original English culture still exists, but i for one havn't donned my suit of armour to go rescue a damsel in distress for years. (but then i'm a lazy git)
The Bible was written from an Ancient Hebrew culture, which is so far removed from anything that exists today as to make it nothing more than museum fodder.
Why indeed ?
Adhering to Old Testament Laws and ideals was damn hard work. Christianity is easy by comparison, just say sorry for all the bad things you've done in your life to an invisible god, tell him you really truly do believe in him, and bingo, you're sorted. No more hell and damnation.
Has it survived because its true, or has it survived because its easy ?
How many of the claimed 2 billion christians on the planet are actively participating and following their faith in the manner the bible expects ? as a percentage ?
the whole in gods image thing has always been confusing for me... for some reason i have problems imagining a god with pimples on his arse
hm funny in german the orient is the middle east and asians are from china japan korea etx but not from india
As religions go, Christianity is nothing special. Hinduism has a longer tradition (and if you claim the history of Judaism for Christianity, then Islam can do that too). Buddhism and Hinduism have had more followers, until the 16th century when the Europeans started colonizing and baptizing the world -- a conquest that was brought by the power of the gun and the germ, not by religious ideas.
Yep, over here too...
:rolleyes:
Reading this thread... ok Skimming through it... I've come to a profound conclusion: Atheists are more hung up about religion than what most zealots are. It's kind of amusing.
one poster contradicted himself in one post... something about not being able to believe in God, yet is perfectly fine with the concept of little green men.
I don't believe in Alien life. I know there are zillions of stars and planets and even a few that could not only sustain life, but sustain life as we know it, but when you look at things in evolutionary terms, at least when I do, the chances of something like that being duplicated elsewhere and succeeding much less getting as far as we have is very slim. It's really not that far of a reach to assume that we are the most advanced life form in the Universe.
Also, looking at things in evolutionary terms, with each passing day we, the human race, come that much closer to achieving a God-like status. So what happens to atheists when everyone is a God?
Even better, will that hot Jehova's Witness chick come by again?
Damn, the wife would be omnipotent too... Would get caught and LITERALLY put through Hell.
one poster contradicted himself in one post... something about not being able to believe in God, yet is perfectly fine with the concept of little green men.
I don't believe in Alien life. I know there are zillions of stars and planets and even a few that could not only sustain life, but sustain life as we know it, but when you look at things in evolutionary terms, at least when I do, the chances of something like that being duplicated elsewhere and succeeding much less getting as far as we have is very slim. It's really not that far of a reach to assume that we are the most advanced life form in the Universe.
Also, looking at things in evolutionary terms, with each passing day we, the human race, come that much closer to achieving a God-like status. So what happens to atheists when everyone is a God?
Even better, will that hot Jehova's Witness chick come by again?
Damn, the wife would be omnipotent too... Would get caught and LITERALLY put through Hell.
Well, I can only speak for myself, but I find it irritating that people automatically assume that you're atheist when you say ur not of the Christian or Muslim faith. I am NOT atheist I am agnostic.
Anyway, this is normally because atheists normally resort to reason on logic and the use of these have made them come to the conclusion that anyone who believes in a religion is likely delusional. Again, this is a generalization but psychology is a generalizing profession.
There's one thing you've gotten wrong and that's the belief that in order to have alien life there needs to be another duplicate of Earth (which in itself is more likely than you think considering u just said a zillion (it's actually multi zillion but anyway...)). This is entirely not true because there are only basic conditions that are required for life. That is a breathable atmosphere or material, and temperature in which water can remain in liquid form for the most part. Now, you are telling me that no matter how far we look there's a very slim chance that we'll find an environment like this? Earth is the best case scenario but it's not the only scenario.
Do I believe aliens are here among us? No. But do I believe that somewhere they exist. Of course. I find it illogical to think otherwise.
Also refering to "the most advance life in the universe"...sure...and at one point we also thought the universe revolved around us (and some of us still do
). Point being, this egocentric (and I dont mean this as an insult because I am guilty of this as well) style of thinking tends to be very persistent among humans. But how are we to know whether we are the most developed? The universe has been around for how long and you want me to believe that this whole time Earth, this insignificant little speck of land among massive seas of planets and strange anatomical matter, is the only place to have the chance to developed life? There are millions of systems even identical to ours and it's very premature to say that "we are the best". Also, the fact that we've had no contact with anyone or anything is no proof at all. In fact, it may be an indication that we still have a long way to develop Umm, ya, no we dont, we just transfer to different forms of thinking. Such as the transition between authority devotion to individualistic scientific reasoning (and I use the word scientific in the most liberal sense possible).
Unless we've come to a point where almost every city is a Utopian society where no jealousy, greed, hate, crime, or anything else that divides us exists then this "god like" state that you speak of is definitely worth debating. But it doesn't appear to be headed that way and keep in mind a higher standard in living in the future doesn't necessarily equate to a better future
Rotf. Little green men? Where did I say anything about little green men.
All I said is that as life started here there is a probability that it would start elsewhere in the entire universe.
Do you believe that given there are billions and billions of planets that earth is 100% unique and the ONLY one with conditions to start some form of life?
Right on the nail.
What is exactly so contradictory about not believing in gods while being fine with the concept of aliens? We exist because this planet spent four billion years developing appropriate conditions - there are billions of other suns & planets out there that have been evolving for as long if not longer than that, so to utterly discount even the possibility of alien life is really quite presumptuous. We only know what's going on in less than 1% of the entire freaking universe! To put something that could conceivably happen within all laws of nature in the same category as omnipotent, immortal, magical gods is a massive mis-categorisation. The fact that life already does exist is (living) proof that life can exist in this universe. No rational person would say that life does exist outside Earth as there's no evidence, but any rational person would say that it's at least possible. The conditions for life exist here on this planet in this galaxy, and since noone has taken a complete census of every planet in the universe, it would be very premature to assert absolutely that those conditions aren't present elsewhere or that life couldn't take hold in some form somewhere else.
You asked what happens when everyone evolves into a god? Well, first describe how it is that you know we're evolving toward some kind of "end-point" at all, like some big pink Pokemons evolving into the ultimate expressions of our species (how do you know we haven't reached it and this is the best we get?). After you've done that, please tell me how you know we're evoling towards god-hood specifically. Then you'll need describe this god-hood. It'd be nice to know what to look out for.
Personally, I don't think the human race has progressed a great deal since we began writing our thoughts down. Technological & social advancement I will leave aside because those things are highly localised to certain areas of the planet, while vast areas of the world populated by hundreds of millions of people are stricken by poverty, war & oppression and are still ruled by corrupt, immoral people with medieval attitudes to power & wealth. This selfish, greedy, violent species of ours has a very long way to go before we can dare presume to call ourselves gods.
Oh. OK. Y'all are going to make me drag this out - huh?
@lizardfolk: Please re read what I originally posted. WHen I said planets sustaining life and planets capable of sustaining life as we know it,
I meant there are probably planets that could support... I dunno silicon based life or whatever.
But BUT BUT. Look at what we know of evolution. This stuff don't happen overnight. It takes a long time. and in the process, there are all sorts of factors that can occur to "kill it in it's tracks" Everything from an asteroid slamming into the planet to disease... famine (do silicon life-forms get thirsty?). Then factor in that progression is mostly by the random chance of getting a positive mutation in any given species.
OK let's go ahead and presume that some other planet somewhere has beaten the odds and made it (so far). What about resources and the ability of these other lifeforms to exploit them? I mean how far would we have gotten if we never understood how to make fire?
What if our planet didn't have Uranium?
Am I making any sense here? I'm not being "egocentric" when I'm proposing this. I'm saying that basically we got lucky. Very lucky.
But who knows. More than one person has won the lottery and look how hard that is to do.
Also, I think evolution has a "streamlining" effect to it as well. Where species become so adept to their environments that if a positive change began to occur within said species, it would have serious competition from the refined traits already in place within that species. So much so that it's dominating characteristics are just not going to be enough to override the original traits.
Like Humans for example, we're so high up on the scale at this point, unless there's some sort of major catastrophy, we're not going to change unless we either allow it or bring it about ourselves.
And if we do bring it about ourselves, Would we just limit this progessive change to just simple stuff like stretchy skin or psychic powers? Or would we shoot for Godhood?
Define Godhood?... LOL yeah right. You first.
@lizardfolk: Please re read what I originally posted. WHen I said planets sustaining life and planets capable of sustaining life as we know it,
I meant there are probably planets that could support... I dunno silicon based life or whatever.
But BUT BUT. Look at what we know of evolution. This stuff don't happen overnight. It takes a long time. and in the process, there are all sorts of factors that can occur to "kill it in it's tracks" Everything from an asteroid slamming into the planet to disease... famine (do silicon life-forms get thirsty?). Then factor in that progression is mostly by the random chance of getting a positive mutation in any given species.
OK let's go ahead and presume that some other planet somewhere has beaten the odds and made it (so far). What about resources and the ability of these other lifeforms to exploit them? I mean how far would we have gotten if we never understood how to make fire?
What if our planet didn't have Uranium?
Am I making any sense here? I'm not being "egocentric" when I'm proposing this. I'm saying that basically we got lucky. Very lucky.
But who knows. More than one person has won the lottery and look how hard that is to do.
Also, I think evolution has a "streamlining" effect to it as well. Where species become so adept to their environments that if a positive change began to occur within said species, it would have serious competition from the refined traits already in place within that species. So much so that it's dominating characteristics are just not going to be enough to override the original traits.
Like Humans for example, we're so high up on the scale at this point, unless there's some sort of major catastrophy, we're not going to change unless we either allow it or bring it about ourselves.
And if we do bring it about ourselves, Would we just limit this progessive change to just simple stuff like stretchy skin or psychic powers? Or would we shoot for Godhood?
Define Godhood?... LOL yeah right. You first.
surely that would have been an advantage considering our and more importantly yours and russias history no?
i dont know the numbers so ill just pull them out of may ass here but im quite certain that the number of sun like stars is a lot larger than the number of possible combination in lotteries
so just from a number game perspective the probability of another "earth" should be larger than 0.5
thats rubbish as we are still in major competition with each other so the more intelligent and better looking will always have better chances at finding suitable mates... well that is assmuning or rather hoping that there is no truth in the movie idiocracy
excuse me? you were the one who put out that ludicrous idea of men becoming gods so youre the one wholl have to define what the hell thats supposed to mean
Christianity did not spread through the Roman Empire, by means of conquest or social coercion. As I stated, it spread while being persecuted (you never heard of Christians being fed to lions in the Roman Colliseum?)
Mickey Mouse has the same historical significance as the Bible?
Not relevant to my question about why Christianity has been so significant in Western Culture.
Judaism is still practiced in some parts of the world, particularly including Israel and the USA (and was practiced in Europe, to some considerable extent, until the Nazis came along; I don't know how popular it is in Europe, at this point in time).
As I pointed out, Christianity was far from easy, for its early adherents.
I didn't ask how many people are practicing Christianity in the manner the bible expects. I asked why it became so popular, historically. An obvious answer is that Christians engaged in conquest. However, that is far from being the whole story; early Christians were in no position to conquer anything, and that also applies to many Christian missionaries in far-off lands.
True enough, I suppose; but it does not address my question.
I'll state my point again too. The Christian Goths sacked Rome, starving out the women and children. The Christians coerced the Wiccans and pagan religions of Northern Europe, and killed their religious leaders. If that isn't social coercion I dunno what is.
Christianity was not brought to the Roman Empire by conquering Goths. It began as a small "religious cult" in a small, distant province of the empire (Palestine), and its increasing popularity was regarded by the Empire, as being so troublesome, that Christianity was horribly persecuted in an attempt to suppress it, but it gained adherents, anyway, eventually including the emperor Constantine, who then basically made it the official religion of the empire - before which, I cannot imagine what basis there can be, for claiming that it spread by "social coercion."
Well, I don't want to bore everybody by re-posting my previous post, so I'll just leave you to do your own recursive revisionism.
You are not fully grasping the enormity of our universe. Ok, let me put it this way. How do you know that we are the first creature to evolve. No better yet, how do you know that Earth is the first planet to develop life? The planets that we have found to have the possibility to develop life (Earth like planets) are empty because they are a zillion light years away (and that's a modest statement). So if something's a zillion light years away. It would take light to travel a zillion years to reach our point. Therefore...we are actually looking at a planet a zillion years ago.
Now, imagine Earth in it's early stages with a stable environment with only simple life. It took us around 2-3 thousand years to develop some reasonably intelligent life. Wouldn't you say that within zillion years humans would flourish and develop more? (Atleast master space travel).
Regardless of the type of life form, be it mammal, reptile, silicon, aqautic, random flesh fission, w/e. The only requirement for life is water and a stable atmosphere (which many planets have). Mars has bacteria and that is considered the early for of life. If Mars were a bit warmer (and have oceans instead of ice blocks). Life on Mars wouldn't be a farfetched idea.
Point being, Earth is just one planet among an infinite amounts of planets who can develop life. Earth is definitely not the oldest (in fact, it's a bit young) and who's to say that we are the first intelligent life to develop when planets life ours existed a zillions years before and beyond?
Why is Zen and Buddhism (and Zen is NOT the same thing as Buddhism) so prominent in oriental culture? We are still at a point where religion still heavily influence our society. Science is gradually pulling that away, however, people within their own region still grasp to the beliefs of their religion. Christianity just so happens to be highly regarded in Western Culture. Doesn't necessarily makes it extraordinary. In fact, I regard Wicca as a more extraordinary religion for it is widely and heavily labeled as a "satanic" religion and suffered harsh persecution. And yet, it's still here.
"Revisionism" is defined at dictionary.com as: "a departure from any authoritative or generally accepted doctrine, theory, practice, etc."
As far as I know, I have accurately described the basic, commonly acknowledged history of Christianity in the Roman Empire. So, I don't know why you have characterized it as "revisionism." You're the one who stated that "In fact, everywhere that Christianity spread (including the Goths starving and sacking Rome) it did either through conquest or social coersion" - which statement is evidently false.
No, it's most evidentially true. Did the Goths sack Rome? Yes, they did. Did christians persecute pagans? Yes they did.
In fact there were lots of tribes of "barbarians" and "vandals" etc, who were Christian fighting forces, often recruited by the Romans to do their dirty work for them in exchange for promises of land and cash.
In fact there were lots of tribes of "barbarians" and "vandals" etc, who were Christian fighting forces, often recruited by the Romans to do their dirty work for them in exchange for promises of land and cash.
My Moment Of Clarity - Religious Debate
(295 posts, started )
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