Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

ajp u seem quite knowledgable on karting, so as u might know, a small minority of us karters ARE mechanically sympathetic (the better ones normally) with smoothness being the priority!

A kart still requires less mechanical sympathy to be quick though, if you drive a car too hard you can easily destroy it over the course of a race.

Quote :

but i think we can all agree ajp, tristan and alan, that there are alot of egotistical over confident karters who wont listen to anyone around but there are ALOT of untalented rich boys who cant drive in cars aswell.

Agreed completely there

Quote :

i can heel and toe

But that isn't a skill you've learnt from racing a direct drive kart?

Quote from ajp71 :

I would never let a karter near any racing car I was lucky enough to own. For starters you've got the issue of ridiculous over confidence, a lot of people new to cars get into big smashes, sometimes on their first few laps because they have no idea of what they're doing and a lot more drive fast but drive beyond their limits, they're often a problem in single seater racing because they can normally qualify quite well but are unable to race cleanly and often spin out in front of cars.

Then you've got the bigger issue of a complete lack of mechanical sympathy, a lot of over confident drivers are very hard on cars, a single missed gear change in a light revving engine, which isn't hard to do, will bend valves and potentially damage pistons. Single seaters will also not take kindly to all kerbs, clipping the wrong kerb too hard will result suspension failure. Added to that it's very easy too rev too hard or down change too early and older single seaters like Tristan's require heel and toeing.

I think it's safe to say any karter with no previous track experience in cars would still be at the back of the grid in a front running car after their first test session and race meeting, they'd find it easier to find the line than most novice racers but they'd still spend most of their time struggling to get to grips with the complications of a car and their confidence may prove to be their downfall as any mistake in a single seater costs you big time.

lol me? I didn't suggest to put me in it! I would bin it for sure!

Most young karters are hugely knowledgeable about mechanical workings. They spend most of the time tuning the carb, and are always on the edge... well with the ol' 100cc anyway. It's a very difficult balancing act, and a risky one. Seizing a 100cc at the end of the straight with a load of karts behind will hurt. In fact Thonon broke a leg i believe because of it the other week. You run an engine to hard it will brake! same in karts as cars

So the understanding of mechanic sympathy is there otherwise some people wouldn't let 14 year old karters out in F Renaults.

Quote from ajp71 :

A kart still requires less mechanical sympathy to be quick though, if you drive a car too hard you can easily destroy it over the course of a race.

definatly, i know some fast drivers who drive in a crazy manor, i guess thats why some karters ARE good in cars, and some arent.

Quote from ajp71 :

But that isn't a skill you've learnt from racing a direct drive kart?

i think karting teaches you a certain ummm, flexability with driving and an understanding of what drivers are doing and the knowledge that you always have to learn. I think LFS helps too. Actually i think LFS is a better grass roots than karting.

Quote from Intrepid :

So the understanding of mechanic sympathy is there otherwise some people wouldn't let 14 year old karters out in F Renaults.

Current Formula Renaults are far easier to drive than the type of single seater Tristan has given gear changes no longer require any skill and they can be driven with two feet, much more like a kart. They're also all rev limited now so you can't get too keen and push too hard, rev limiters are a relatively recent development and a lot of older cars (like I guess Tristan's) don't have them.

Quote from ajp71 :

Current Formula Renaults are far easier to drive than the type of single seater Tristan has given gear changes no longer require any skill and they can be driven with two feet, much more like a kart. They're also all rev limited now so you can't get too keen and push too hard, rev limiters are a relatively recent development and a lot of older cars (like I guess Tristan's) don't have them.

only one way to find out

Intreped where abouts are you racing?


Me When Younger

Now, time for a valient attempt to get this thread back on topic!

Do we think Team48 will ever appear? Supposedly Alfa have a problem with their cars being in anything other than red and both cars have been painted in green. This is, IIRC, why WSR went for BMWs. Alfa wanted their cars in red (RAC wanted orange) and SEAT wouldn't sell them to them. So they went for the 320si. Good choice, really.

Is Team48 The Jamaican Guy ?

Quote from duke_toaster :

Do we think Team48 will ever appear? Supposedly Alfa have a problem with their cars being in anything other than red and both cars have been painted in green. This is, IIRC, why WSR went for BMWs. Alfa wanted their cars in red (RAC wanted orange) and SEAT wouldn't sell them to them. So they went for the 320si. Good choice, really.

But Alfa can't control what is done with their cars, if you can't buy a bodyshell from them you can just go and buy as badly treated high mileage an example as you can find of the current model and build it as a racer with no disadvantage. The only issue you might have is if you literally couldn't get the factory to supply engines, but I doubt they'd be that picky TBH.

Whilton is my local track, but I am not planning on racing there in the summer.

Quote from Jordan2007 :

Single Seaters Is Pussy racing!!

Right m8, & how many single seater's have you driven?

Quote from Jordan2007 :

Is Team48 The Jamaican Guy ?

Yes, one of the drivers is Jamaican. And the team is owned by Luther Blissett.

Quote from Intrepid :

Snap steer to induce some alonso style understeer if you have to scrub speed. But what do I know. I am just a karter! you don't learn that much in karting!!! lmao lolol

Doesn't the "snap steer" thing only work in Karts as they have no suspension?

Quote from Jakg :

Doesn't the "snap steer" thing only work in Karts as they have no suspension?

Well turning the steering wheel fast is still going to induce understeer most of the time. In a more advanced car it isn't normally so beneficial, hence why very few racing drivers do it in optimal dry conditions.

Quote from anttt69 :

Right m8, & how many single seater's have you driven?

I had A Test In A Formula Renault and a Formula Ford, Yeh There quick But Too Flimsy! Just need to Touch Wheels and ur in the wall!

Quote from Intrepid :

and by the way tristan. Having a look at your onboard video's in the wet at rockingham try not to load the car on the dry line. There's isn't any grip there. You lose the car mid corner and it's costing you time. Go right round the outside if you have to. Snap steer to induce some alonso style understeer if you have to scrub speed. But what do I know. I am just a karter! you don't learn that much in karting!!! lmao lolol

Yup, very true. Bear in mind that I was still very very new then. Also bear in mind (which you won't know unless you trawled through the articles at the time) that my nearside rear wheel bearing had worked loose, and was giving me dynamic (and uncontrolled) rear wheel steering of quite an alarming degree!!!!!

I never got on with Rockingham. Even in the dry. I tried various wet lines (not all entirely on purpose, I admit) and none seemed to give any additional grip or confidence.

Then compare it to Mallory, where despite having never driven round the track before I qualified in 5th (sounds worse than it was, but if you ignore the 3 Dallaras you'll get a better picture of where my car is capable of finishing) in the wet...

Snetterton has some oddities in wet lines. Coram is much better round the outside, but the Bombhole is crap anywhere except on the dry racing line, even if it's completely flooded!

But no, I was crap at Rockingham, and I am the first to admit it. I'm hoping to do rather better this time around.

Alex is right as well - modern F3 or FRenault cars have to be driven much more smoothly than older style cars. Watch the 1988 UK F3 championship and see how they throw the cars into corners in nice 4 wheel drifts (even on radials). Compare that to today and see how they NEVER slide if they can help it. Wheel races of nearly double (!) go someway to explaining that.

But that doesn't change the fact that any decent driver with ability and aspiration will move on to cars as soon as they possibly can, and the rest either give up, or stay stuck in karts for ever... Who grows up aspiring to be a karter? Who grows up aspiring to be an F1 driver? Enough said.

Quote from Jordan2007 :

I had A Test In A Formula Renault and a Formula Ford, Yeh There quick But Too Flimsy! Just need to Touch Wheels and ur in the wall!

Why don't I believe that

Quote from ajp71 :

Why don't I believe that

I think he headbutted the car

A Formula Renault isn't flimsy... What were you doing to it to make it flimsy?

Quote from Jordan2007 :

I had A Test In A Formula Renault and a Formula Ford, Yeh There quick But Too Flimsy! Just need to Touch Wheels and ur in the wall!

I know of someone who did a few races in Scottish Formula Ford and I can tell you for a fact the cars are not `flimsy.` The only time the car broke on him was when he rolled it big time and took all 4 corners off it.

Also, whats with the capital letters...

I mean Like When u hit the wheel u just fly up in the air but Renault a bit More Built Up and Stonger All Im saying is I Like Bumper to bumper racing With a little contact,

Uv gotta have a little contact in Motorsport Dont you think ?

Quote from Jordan2007 :

Uv gotta have a little contact in Motorsport Dont you think ?

No.

Contact happens. It's unavoidable - even with super-flimsy cars (ie F1 cars) contact still happens (ie the rubbing at the Nurburgring last year) - however this contact is not necessary - it should be avoided at all costs, because if it's not you end up with driving like the BTCC, where nudging has virtually no damage on the car and is usually deemed as "ok".

It's a funny thing you know, on one side there's btcc and on the other there's dtm, where you get a drive thru for overtaking..

Quote from hyntty :

It's a funny thing you know, on one side there's btcc and on the other there's dtm, where you get a drive thru for overtaking..

The DTM is lunacy. Stupid cars, stupid race format. WTCC is about right regarding driving standards.

Quote from Jordan2007 :

Uv gotta have a little contact in Motorsport Dont you think ?

Afraid to break it to you but all MSA sanctioned circuit based motorsport is strictly non-contact. I think what you're looking for is stock car racing.