More evidence.
jeez........how i laughed at that photo!!!!!
nice one Michael Denham...........good shout!
He just can't stop digging. IMO there's no way he can keep his position unless he just shuts up and goes quiet for a month or two without anything in the press about it. I don't think he's ever going to be a good public face of the FIA again though so maybe he could take a backseat role.
I think it's still too early to draw any kind of conclusion, apart from the fact that Mosley is in a trouble that's getting worse each passing day. It can be difficult or impossible, but if he ever proves in a court that his sexual stunts aren't necessarily a nazi styled enactment we'll see some other people in a very embarassing position. I have the sensation that Mosley's head couldn't be the only one to fall, and that much more mudslinging could be seen in the future.
hasnt he already admitted that they are by commenting on bmws and mercedes history during ww2?
No, that's a wrong conclusion, as he deems the accusations against him untrue in the same communication. His words about BMW and Mercedes can be considered naive or outright nasty, but Mosley acts like he's reacting to an unjust accusation from organisations which don't have an immaculate past and don't have any conclusive proof of the allegations against him. Mosley must believe he has a way to prove his point. Whether this possibility is real or not, we'll see. If he ever succeeds, there will be blowbacks.
:ices_roflthats one interpretation
mine is more along the lines of using ad hominem in an attempt to bully bmw and mercedes into shutting up whcih can be regarded as an admission
mine is more along the lines of using ad hominem in an attempt to bully bmw and mercedes into shutting up whcih can be regarded as an admission
Sorry, but I think you're applying a flawed logic. For instance if I deny I am Italian I can be a liar, but I definitely don't admit I am Italian. And If I say that you're calling me Italian and that you should be wary because you were an Italian in your past, I still don't admit I am Italian.
When someone says something is untrue you can hardly consider he admits something is true. You can reasonably think Mosley's lying, but he's definitely denying nazi roleplay allegations, so your conclusion about him admitting it seems rather strange. He's very clear about it.
When someone says something is untrue you can hardly consider he admits something is true. You can reasonably think Mosley's lying, but he's definitely denying nazi roleplay allegations, so your conclusion about him admitting it seems rather strange. He's very clear about it.
He's not denying that used five prostitutes and allowed himself to be filmed having kinky sex with them, which is plenty damaging enough on its own to destroy his ability to be the public face of the FIA.
He's also not said he's challenging the Nazi claims, but instead that it was an invasion of his privacy, I suspect he may well be able to win his case, if he doesn't drop it due to the additional publicity, but the damage has been done and he will not be able to clear his name of these allegations through court in any case.
Last time I checked the F1 racers didn't look like Catholic priests, and the circus is not a church. Mosley's reputation is damaged beyond repair by this exposure, but let's avoid being hypocritical. He had no public position to defend about paid sex, he's not Spitzer. The invasion of his privacy is blatant, so the whole issue revolves around antisemitism and it's a problem of political nature, not sexual. Toyota is clear about that.
What Mosley says about Mercedes and BMW:
Unfortunately, they did not contact me before putting out their statement to ask whether the content was in fact true.
And if you google about "Max Mosley denies" you have all the other sources.
Can you provide links to the admissions, please? I'd like to be informed about it.
While I think it's pretty frightening that a newspaper can legally(?) set up a trap like that and put the clips out in the wild, I don't think there is any way Mosley can keep his position. Even without the nazi aspect, I wouldn't want Motorracing to be headed by a man who will go down in history for getting royally spanked and whipped on youtube. Most people find that kind of kink repulsive and will not be able to take him or the sport seriously in future.
If the Nazi aspect is true (I didn't watch the video) then there's nothing to discuss anyway.
If the Nazi aspect is true (I didn't watch the video) then there's nothing to discuss anyway.
The antisemitism maybe the main issue/the issue people want to talk about, but whilst still legal prostitution and S&M are both rightly or wrongly considered socially unacceptable. If he didn't have the fascist links and there was no German connection made a major public figure being part of a sex scandal like this, especially one with such embarrassing pictures is going to have his reputation destroyed and be forced out of his job, either through demands or just because no one takes him seriously anymore.
He's never given any suggestion he'll legally deny the Nazi thing so the court case (if there is one) won't comment on the validity of the Nazi allegations. He has effectively acknowledged that the event did happen and that it is a video of him having an S&M session with 5 prostitutes with the statement that he spoke in German because some of the girls were German. He obviously can't deny the events took place or that he spoke in German because there's clear evidence of this.
Personally I don't care about anything I could consider repulsive when no crime is committed and no apology of political aberrations is made, but I don't know if this applies to Mosley. I haven't seen the entire original video or significant, high quality uncensored bits, so I'll let others, more important than me, judge the whole episode.
I care much more about privacy and about anyone's right not to be disturbed by journalists when the private fact is unimportant for a public role. For me the only important bit here is the Nazi stuff; any other reason smells of bigotry to me, and of an unjust exposure.
Edit: for the other point, you wrote "He's also not said he's challenging the Nazi claims". He did more, he already challenged the Nazi claims in the press. The court case stuff is merely an hypothesis and should be treated as such with no absolute certainty (if you look closely I do), but as a matter of fact he already did what you said he didn't say he's doing. But don't scratch your head too much, just read his declarations (or provide proof of the contrary, please).
Re-edit: here's the video everybody has seen. But I personally need more evidence than that to come to a certain conclusion about nazi fantasies. I can't have it, so I give Mosley the benefit of doubt, as I'd give it to anyone.
Just one more edit to note something really obvious: there's a camera placed outside that films Mosley entering the 'dungeon'. Doesn't that ring a bell to anyone?
I care much more about privacy and about anyone's right not to be disturbed by journalists when the private fact is unimportant for a public role. For me the only important bit here is the Nazi stuff; any other reason smells of bigotry to me, and of an unjust exposure.
Edit: for the other point, you wrote "He's also not said he's challenging the Nazi claims". He did more, he already challenged the Nazi claims in the press. The court case stuff is merely an hypothesis and should be treated as such with no absolute certainty (if you look closely I do), but as a matter of fact he already did what you said he didn't say he's doing. But don't scratch your head too much, just read his declarations (or provide proof of the contrary, please).
Re-edit: here's the video everybody has seen. But I personally need more evidence than that to come to a certain conclusion about nazi fantasies. I can't have it, so I give Mosley the benefit of doubt, as I'd give it to anyone.
Just one more edit to note something really obvious: there's a camera placed outside that films Mosley entering the 'dungeon'. Doesn't that ring a bell to anyone?
But why do the Nazi claims bear any importance to you? If legality is the measure by which you judge his acts then I don't think Nazi role playing is illegal in England.
And if legality isn't the measure, then you are applying you own personal measures, which you have every right to do, just like everyone has the right to not want to have a sado freak as the sport's leader.
And if legality isn't the measure, then you are applying you own personal measures, which you have every right to do, just like everyone has the right to not want to have a sado freak as the sport's leader.
Because that bit is important for Mosley's position since it would involve in his sex game the memory of a whole people who suffered an immense tragedy. It wouldn't be a simple private lack of taste, it would be a lack of humanity.
Besides that such role-playing or impersonation, when constituting an apology of nazism or fascism, would be considered a crime in Italy and would likely lead to criminal charges no matter if private or public, unless it was intended as a condemnation of such regimes. We lost a war, we were shocked, we made laws to condemn such acts.
Besides that such role-playing or impersonation, when constituting an apology of nazism or fascism, would be considered a crime in Italy and would likely lead to criminal charges no matter if private or public, unless it was intended as a condemnation of such regimes. We lost a war, we were shocked, we made laws to condemn such acts.
trying to shift the focus away from yourself by the means hes used is usually a unmistakeable sign of guilt
I don't want to jump to early conclusions. You already assume he's guilty of enacting a Nazi style role play, but the available evidence is really scarce, apart from all the signs that suggest he's been baited into it. I've seen no evidence of an explicit reference to Nazism in the video by News of the World, and I hear - in the same clip - no explicit reference made by Mosley himself. If they had it, they would have shown it.
If Mosley's really innocent about the Nazi allegations, his declarations about Mercedes and BMW are a naive sign of a real and justified impatience. You just have to review the video on youtube, it still works. If you hear Mosley counting in German or doing all the stuff News of the World puts into brackets and in very suggestive sentences which aren't supported by the video as a certain and explicit reference to the Holocaust, tell me. I haven't seen it. If you have better evidence, feel free to share it. But if you don't have anything better we can only discuss what's available and speculate about the rest.
Tell me what you see, and I'll tell you a thousand possible interpretations. Looking for parasites in the hair? Common practice during visits to inmates (remember Saddam?). A pair of German words used by a hooker? Hardly a proof of Mosley's involvement in a nazi-themed roleplay. More of a proof of someone wanting to smear Mosley, just as the camera placed outside.
Evidence, evidence. I want clear cut evidence. Everything else is just a speculation. If I have to judge my gut feelings aren't enough. I'm not that presumptuous.
If Mosley's really innocent about the Nazi allegations, his declarations about Mercedes and BMW are a naive sign of a real and justified impatience. You just have to review the video on youtube, it still works. If you hear Mosley counting in German or doing all the stuff News of the World puts into brackets and in very suggestive sentences which aren't supported by the video as a certain and explicit reference to the Holocaust, tell me. I haven't seen it. If you have better evidence, feel free to share it. But if you don't have anything better we can only discuss what's available and speculate about the rest.
Tell me what you see, and I'll tell you a thousand possible interpretations. Looking for parasites in the hair? Common practice during visits to inmates (remember Saddam?). A pair of German words used by a hooker? Hardly a proof of Mosley's involvement in a nazi-themed roleplay. More of a proof of someone wanting to smear Mosley, just as the camera placed outside.
Evidence, evidence. I want clear cut evidence. Everything else is just a speculation. If I have to judge my gut feelings aren't enough. I'm not that presumptuous.
oh i fully admit that im jumping to conclusions here but i think its blatantly obvious from his statements that he is feeling guilty
No, the only certain thing is that he refuses the allegations of nazism while accepting all the rest.
but apparantly he's only sueing for "breach of privacy", if the nazism was untrue surely they'd go for defamation as well~?
or of course the alleged sueing only for breach of privacy might be made up by the media~ lol
Mosley's future is on Red Light District
he's OLD, and he can get down for 5 hours and then continue on with his day. go Max!
http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=42169
It is not known what form any legal action might take; the two most obvious recourses open to Mosley are to sue for libel or for a breach of privacy under Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights.
As I said before everything is hypothetical at the moment except available evidence, which is socially damning but not clearly indicating Mosley was consciously part of a nazi roleplay instead of a generic prison themed s&m fantasy.
Mosley will very likely leave FIA, but he may be extremely resoluted in wanting to clear himself from the most bothersome allegations. If he doesn't choose the path of silence and inaction he'll choose the legal action that grants the best results including minimal additional public exposure.
I like your approach to this affair and I think this quote of yours sums up a dilemma... There's a world of difference between a "Nazi style" role play, and something more specific.
There are no laws here in the UK regarding the display of Nazi emblems. However, Max is part of an international organisation, and there are at least two territories (Italy and Germany) where such display is specifically illegal (I'm making assumptions here - I know about Germany, but perhaps you can be more specific about the law in Italy)
The videos show no swastikas, no ss insignia, nothing specifically "National Socialist". It is quite generic....
It may be distasteful to some, but, if you were to make concrete the collective unconcious of a Grand Prix paddock (indeed any large gathering of people) it would be ... well, quite spectacular.
So far, the only problem I can see is that something private has been made public. Sometimes such forced 'outings' are necessary and have a positive impact on the world in general, but I'm not sure that's the case here.
Mosley's future?
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