On the web page (http://www.mastersofendurance.eu/news) the drivers briefing (start, 45% rule, skin instructions, and layout) is posted including links to the .psd's of both the new Masters of Endurance logo and the Kyoto National event logo.
6h of Kyoto National: Drivers' Briefing
I think its rather bizarre that teams will get a DT for something introduced 2 days before the final event, yet in previous rounds ive seen a couple of teams running without the MoE visor, and one without a number on. Missing those items i can understand them being punishable, but lacking the use of both logos is punishable with such short notice... there should be some continuety/consistancy, not 6 months of not giving a hoot then coming down hard in the last round 2 days before the race, it'd be a crappy way to end the season if teams got penalties under those circumstances.
Also, it wouldnt harm to actually mention this rule in this thread, rather than assume people will read the latest bit of news, especially when you plan on penalising people for not reading that news. Its very late news, apparently its important people know (seeing as you plan to DT folk who dont) so wouldnt it make sense just to make sure as many people do actually know this to avoid having to give out DTs, as the aim is surely to get everyone using the new logos, not finding stealthy ways to punish people.
Also, i gotta ask what the bejesus is going on in that Kyoto logo? Why is there what appears to be the sihollette of a geeza holding a gun? I cannot for the life of me figure out what the blazes that is supposed to be, cant help but think it'd look a whole lot nicer without it, it looks like a mistake on the layer (i know its not) and has been left in there, cant see what it could be that ties in with endurance racing to explain what it means.
Anyone got any ideas?
Also, it wouldnt harm to actually mention this rule in this thread, rather than assume people will read the latest bit of news, especially when you plan on penalising people for not reading that news. Its very late news, apparently its important people know (seeing as you plan to DT folk who dont) so wouldnt it make sense just to make sure as many people do actually know this to avoid having to give out DTs, as the aim is surely to get everyone using the new logos, not finding stealthy ways to punish people.
Also, i gotta ask what the bejesus is going on in that Kyoto logo? Why is there what appears to be the sihollette of a geeza holding a gun? I cannot for the life of me figure out what the blazes that is supposed to be, cant help but think it'd look a whole lot nicer without it, it looks like a mistake on the layer (i know its not) and has been left in there, cant see what it could be that ties in with endurance racing to explain what it means.
Anyone got any ideas?
I assumed they were clouds around Mt. Fuji.
And if anyone gets a DT for not having two logos on their car with ~3 days warning, they deserve it, IMO. Drivers are expected to read the drivers' briefing.
If it comes down to getting a penalty or slightly marring the aesthetics of your skin, c'mon.
And if anyone gets a DT for not having two logos on their car with ~3 days warning, they deserve it, IMO. Drivers are expected to read the drivers' briefing.
If it comes down to getting a penalty or slightly marring the aesthetics of your skin, c'mon.
c'mon?? 
What have i got to 'cmon' about, i didnt even make or imply the comment your telling me to 'cmon' about.
If it comes down to penalising people or visiting the new site to avoid penalties... c'mon
We can all put words in other peoples mouth, doesnt make it right.
The post was made 58hrs before the race, while >80% of the entrants are fast asleep and wont read for at least 8hrs, the thread entitled 'Drivers Briefing', which you say is what people should be reading, contains NO warning of DT penalties. The MoE website rules contains NO warning of this DT penalty, this very forum's rules contains NO warning of this DT penalty.
Theres a convenient lack of effort being made to announce to people this rule exists, instead theres a cryptic message telling everyone to go to the newly opened MoE website.
If what you trying to do is get people to put the correct logos on the cars, then all you have to do is make a GENIUNE attempt at asking people to do this, this has been the location for 99.9% of all pre & post race communications, the ONLY thing the MoE site has ever done is hold the 45% estimate, which most people dont need to know about, so wouldnt it make perfect sense if you want people to put the new logos on skins to just say so, not force people to visit the new site and if they dont give them a DT, because thats basically what its doing, but whatever it is it isnt exactly in the spirit of things is it, Its hardly trying to get the message out.
Personally it makes sod all difference to me, our skins had the logos on the Sunday night once the site went up, but as i said earlier it'd be a shitty way to end the series by handing out petty penalties because you refused to tell people on this forum. As i said in the 2nd paragraph of the previous post, what harm does it do giving proper warning of this new rule you'll be dishing out penalties for, even if you insist of forcing people to the MoE site for a couple extra page hits, give decent warning, thats my gripe, combined with p*ss-poor notice of its introduction. Unless you WANT people getting this penalty, make a proper effort to tell people they need to have these logos on, and theres a penalty for anyone failing to, currently its rather secretive which im pretty sure isnt the norm for a drivers briefing.
If you want logos on skins, just ask people. Help others help you, surely thats win-win for everyone Im sure you dont want to hand out stupid penalties, so let people know better especially given the short notice.
What have i got to 'cmon' about, i didnt even make or imply the comment your telling me to 'cmon' about.
If it comes down to penalising people or visiting the new site to avoid penalties... c'mon
We can all put words in other peoples mouth, doesnt make it right.
The post was made 58hrs before the race, while >80% of the entrants are fast asleep and wont read for at least 8hrs, the thread entitled 'Drivers Briefing', which you say is what people should be reading, contains NO warning of DT penalties. The MoE website rules contains NO warning of this DT penalty, this very forum's rules contains NO warning of this DT penalty.
Theres a convenient lack of effort being made to announce to people this rule exists, instead theres a cryptic message telling everyone to go to the newly opened MoE website.
If what you trying to do is get people to put the correct logos on the cars, then all you have to do is make a GENIUNE attempt at asking people to do this, this has been the location for 99.9% of all pre & post race communications, the ONLY thing the MoE site has ever done is hold the 45% estimate, which most people dont need to know about, so wouldnt it make perfect sense if you want people to put the new logos on skins to just say so, not force people to visit the new site and if they dont give them a DT, because thats basically what its doing, but whatever it is it isnt exactly in the spirit of things is it, Its hardly trying to get the message out.
Personally it makes sod all difference to me, our skins had the logos on the Sunday night once the site went up, but as i said earlier it'd be a shitty way to end the series by handing out petty penalties because you refused to tell people on this forum. As i said in the 2nd paragraph of the previous post, what harm does it do giving proper warning of this new rule you'll be dishing out penalties for, even if you insist of forcing people to the MoE site for a couple extra page hits, give decent warning, thats my gripe, combined with p*ss-poor notice of its introduction. Unless you WANT people getting this penalty, make a proper effort to tell people they need to have these logos on, and theres a penalty for anyone failing to, currently its rather secretive which im pretty sure isnt the norm for a drivers briefing.
If you want logos on skins, just ask people. Help others help you, surely thats win-win for everyone
Im sure you dont want to hand out stupid penalties, so let people know better especially given the short notice.I completly agree with Paul.
btw
Our skinner is not around for the race and not even online due to problems with his line.
But we will somehow manage it to put the logos on the car, like we are forced to, to not get the DT.
I wished you admins would spent more time in the preparation of the race itself, instead of spending time on such things.
I hope the tracker will be ready in time for this race and someone is there to admin it, so the race can start at the right time and not hours later.
Just my 2 cents
If you need any help with that then just let me or perhaps even Paul know, It shouldn't take longer then 30 seconds and saves getting a penalty or using mspaint
#7
- three_jump
I agree with Paul
wtf
u guys, April first was a few days ago, your all too late
And as roob said, if you need the logos going on, let me know, same applies to anyone else, wont be easy without the source file to remove the previous logos but im sure i could get it near perfect.
And as roob said, if you need the logos going on, let me know, same applies to anyone else, wont be easy without the source file to remove the previous logos but im sure i could get it near perfect.
A response to the arguments used:
MoE can require all teams to fit their cars with number plates, sunstrips and car markings which are provided by MoE.
Ergo, it is in the rules, just not defined with a penalty. This rule has been in the rules for the whole season, and longer.
Now, to explain why we want to enforce using the new logo's, which hopefully gives you guys a better idea about the why and how we're doing it:
As Tweak left and taking with him all his art, we were without any graphics. Since we had started the contest for the new logo after and this logo contest ended the day before the 6hrs of Blackwood, we allowed people to drive with the old graphics. However, at this point in time we have new graphics and we want to enforce the use of these graphics, so the we end the old era of graphics and enter the new one. You can see this as the first step for next season, graphic-wise.
MoE can require all teams to fit their cars with number plates, sunstrips and car markings which are provided by MoE.
Ergo, it is in the rules, just not defined with a penalty. This rule has been in the rules for the whole season, and longer.
Now, to explain why we want to enforce using the new logo's, which hopefully gives you guys a better idea about the why and how we're doing it:
As Tweak left and taking with him all his art, we were without any graphics. Since we had started the contest for the new logo after and this logo contest ended the day before the 6hrs of Blackwood, we allowed people to drive with the old graphics. However, at this point in time we have new graphics and we want to enforce the use of these graphics, so the we end the old era of graphics and enter the new one. You can see this as the first step for next season, graphic-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with using the new Logos or putting anything else on the car you come up with.
My problem, and this is not just the skins, is the absolute lack of a proper organisation at all. Why can't such things (like a friendly reminder and not just a link to a new website) not be announced a week before the race? Three days before the race a new thread comes up with "btw: we if you don't use the new logos you get a penalty".
It's the way some things are dealt with that really annoys me.
And yes, we have a skin with the new logos.
My problem, and this is not just the skins, is the absolute lack of a proper organisation at all. Why can't such things (like a friendly reminder and not just a link to a new website) not be announced a week before the race? Three days before the race a new thread comes up with "btw: we if you don't use the new logos you get a penalty".
It's the way some things are dealt with that really annoys me.
And yes, we have a skin with the new logos.
In this case, it couldn't be announced until it was announced, because we didn't have the graphics ready to go and packaged properly. We do our best to have things ready in an orderly manner, but as you're well aware, things don't always go according to plan.
We regret it if it's an inconvenience to some teams, but we feel this is necessary a) to move into a new era of the league, and b) to properly put to use the hard work that Justin and Kaspur have done for us.
We regret it if it's an inconvenience to some teams, but we feel this is necessary a) to move into a new era of the league, and b) to properly put to use the hard work that Justin and Kaspur have done for us.
First off, Theres a key word in that rule though isnt there, its 'CAN'.
That rule you've highlighted has been there all season.
People HAVE chose to ignore that rule, you guys HAVE ignored that.
Nowhere in there does it warn of punishment, however now through a rather badly hinted post it turns out your going to give out DT's for people who dont have the new logo AND badge, something which has NEVER been a requirement before.
Secondly, You announced a logo winner had been picked 1 month ago (30+ days), you knew about 2 months ago that you could no longer use the logos tweak produced for the series, and you waited 58hrs before the final round of the series to tell people they'll get a DT penalty if they dont wear both. Not only that, but you make a p*ss-poor attempt at actually warning people of this new rule. If you want to enforce a new rule, made some effort to ensure everyone knows about it, surely the intention of the penalty is to force people to wear the new logo, not so you can be a bitch and dish out DT's cos they're fun, so why the lack of effort to warn people and just tell it to them straight?
To me it stinks that your happy (and DWB says its deserving!) that people could be punished because you guys decide at very short notice your going to get penalty-happy when you guys couldnt get a simple logo out to folks and give them decent warning. Considering you contacted the winner 30 days ago, and were 2 days before the final race, i'd say whatever the reason its so late, it certainly isnt the drivers/teams fault, its either series management or the logo designer, yet clearly the teams are the ones your happy to penalise. How is that fair?
That rule you've highlighted has been there all season.
People HAVE chose to ignore that rule, you guys HAVE ignored that.
Nowhere in there does it warn of punishment, however now through a rather badly hinted post it turns out your going to give out DT's for people who dont have the new logo AND badge, something which has NEVER been a requirement before.
Secondly, You announced a logo winner had been picked 1 month ago (30+ days), you knew about 2 months ago that you could no longer use the logos tweak produced for the series, and you waited 58hrs before the final round of the series to tell people they'll get a DT penalty if they dont wear both. Not only that, but you make a p*ss-poor attempt at actually warning people of this new rule. If you want to enforce a new rule, made some effort to ensure everyone knows about it, surely the intention of the penalty is to force people to wear the new logo, not so you can be a bitch and dish out DT's cos they're fun, so why the lack of effort to warn people and just tell it to them straight?
To me it stinks that your happy (and DWB says its deserving!) that people could be punished because you guys decide at very short notice your going to get penalty-happy when you guys couldnt get a simple logo out to folks and give them decent warning. Considering you contacted the winner 30 days ago, and were 2 days before the final race, i'd say whatever the reason its so late, it certainly isnt the drivers/teams fault, its either series management or the logo designer, yet clearly the teams are the ones your happy to penalise. How is that fair?
The key rule is indeed "can." It gives us leeway to enforce the policy as we choose, which was the way it was intentionally designed. You (should) have been aware of this from the moment you read it.
The implementation may not have been consistent in the past, but we intend for it to be so in the future.
While we announced a winner a month ago, we have been working on the site, the refinement of the series logo, and the design of the event logo for most of that time. We would have gotten the completed package to you sooner if it were possible, but it wasn't.
I'm not going to address the suggestion that we "enjoy" handing out DTs, because that's simply stupid, childish, and absurd.
And as far as I'm concerned, Paul, you need to change the way you post if you want to get civil (or any) responses in the future.
Thanks.
Rubbish, its no longer can, its WILL, thats what im highlighting, You have 2 sections which contain the rules, and they are both inaccurate. Its not debatable, its fact, they WILL be penalised, by a rule which ISNT in the rules. NOWHERE in the rules does it say anyone will be punished for not having the Kyoto logo. So as ive said, the rules dont state something you've rushed in and made no real effort to inform people of.
So because off other people delaying things, the racers are the ones being punished because it took you guys so long to get round to telling people?? You took 28 days to get this far, not a word of warning, then 2 days beforehand theres threats of DT penalties for a very late announcement. That sucks, plain and simple.
Erm, who was the person claiming people who didnt put logos on skins deserved to be given a DT? YOU!
As for 'Enjoy', thats YOUR words not mine. Not once did i say enjoy, i said you'd be happy to give out those penalties for something you guys have announced at the last minute. Your taking things out of context, and you know damn well!
Can i just remind you, for the SECOND time in this thread, you've taken something i havent said, and implied i have! So who's being 'stupid, childish, and absurd'? If you'd stop putting words in my mouth and then using them to warn me for saying something i havent said, then you might find ive said nothing wrong.
Quit taking comments out of the context they are in, just because you guys are boxed in because of lack of organisation and as per usual your shifting the blame of it all onto everyone else. You guys take 28 days to get something done, we get 2 days to act on it or get a DT, wheres the justice!
Thx for your offer Paul (and Rooble).
It's not like me/we are unable (or to stupid
) to put some simple logos on a skin. Our Skinner has the sources, doing high res skins for us, is uploading the skins etc. , and we also want to have it look perfect.
Like you said it's not easy without having the sources available to make it look perfect.
But finally we cleared that and we will have a new skin right in time.
Whether its a can or will, the outcome is the same. I described the goal earlier: 'However, at this point in time we have new graphics and we want to enforce the use of these graphics, so the we end the old era of graphics and enter the new one.'
Now you can discuss whether is a can or a will, the rule still stands.
About the rushed in and no efforts to inform people: Rushed is quite out of context as described (even by you) how long we've work on it. The (lack of) informing people: we have these forums, the website - it is not (only) our responsibility to remain updated with the latest information.
Besides ~3 days ahead is still enough time to get the new skins done, as you and 3J already provided proof of that.
We've made some internal changes which should lead to a timely start and timely prepared tracker.
Just replying to this:
I really hope that you are just kidding... You use the fact that I run in circles to prepare the team (because I really USED to like this league) and to not get a penalty because of your incompetence to get the word out in time to proof that there was enough time?
This is league is really becomming more and more of a joke for me.
EDIT:
if not the league admins care enough... why should the teams?
I really hope that you are just kidding... You use the fact that I run in circles to prepare the team (because I really USED to like this league) and to not get a penalty because of your incompetence to get the word out in time to proof that there was enough time?
This is league is really becomming more and more of a joke for me.
EDIT:
if not the league admins care enough... why should the teams?
Can or will makes a difference, when last week it was 'can' (aka wont) and this week its 'can' (aka bet your life we will). The rules imply possibility, a possibility you've been happy to let slide for 6 months, now its not a possibility, its a nailed on certainty.
There was very little attempt made to warn people, and thats why i was complaining about it to begin with, it was more about getting people to visit the MoE site, a site historicly of little use compared to this forum, somewhere you were chosing not to make this new rule public.
True, its our duty to look out for these warning, and thats why im kicking up a fuss, because theres very little effort being made to warn people of this. If i wanted i could quite easily ignore this and watch others trip up because no real announcement was made with such short notice, however i'd rather we have a proper race, not a mickey mouse one, end the series properly instead of re-creating the US GP from 2005 (coincidence seeing as were at an oval based track :razz
because nobody wants an uneven playing field, and allowing people to miss an important announcement would create that, which isnt in this series best interests, surely you can see that??What we're complaining about is the lack of warning, and utter contempt for the people your planning on penalising.
Im fairly sure that everyone taking part in MoE is more than happy to put the latest logos on, afterall there are plenty of posts before each race asking if theres a event logo for it, however rather than just asking people to switch logos, they're threatened with a DT penalty.
Unless you think people dont want to use the logos, exactly how does issuing a DT penalty help your causes? It doesnt magicly get logos on skins, it just pissed people off, especially if they didnt see a warning which was hardly informative! IMO your going completely the wrong way about things, instead treating people with contempt rather than asking them nicely. Given *2* (stop the ~3 BS please) days warning, for something you've been working on for over 30 days, known about for around 45-60 days, to be so bold as to chose to start punishing others for failing to see an extremely poor warning for the organisers, when you've made little attempt to warn them yourself, for such a petty little thing.
Surely you dont want to ruin the final race of the season for teams because they missed an poorly made announcement, and as ive said our skins were done on Sunday with the logos, I have nothing to worry about for our sake, but in the interest of keeping things sporting, i feel teams are being poorly treated.
As i say, people will put skins on cars if they know, make a decent effort to warn people and im sure it'll get done, particularly if you give reasonable time for everyone to see the announcement and act upon it, but threatening non-compliance with penalties because you've left things late... thats just not fair! All were asking for is a reasonable bit of warning, YOU want the logos on the car, thats what this is all about, so help us help you.
What really, is in the best interest of this series? Having some cars 30+ sec behind from the green flag due to not seeing the new/changed rule, or having a fair race and a fitting end to the season with the exact same % of cars missing the logo?? This implementation doesnt increase your chances of people using the logo, it just ruins races for those who dont see a poorly made last minute announcement. Its a race series at the end of the day, the less done to ruin that the better.
@3J The fact that you have arranged it in time, proofs that there was time enough (There is even ~2 days left). I'm not saying that things in the past were done that great and timely, but slowly we try to improve, but of course you can choose to not see that part.
And your comment about a joke: same can be said about the whining of some people over the forums, would you care putting a lot of time in a league for such kind of people? Apparently we still care a lot to put such amounts of time in the league regardless of all the crap we get to endure. As said before, we understand and agree that we need to improve in certain areas, but it requires some time, especially since the admin team has changed during the season.
Constructive feedback, yes please, whining: please go to your mommy.
@Paul
I see we're basically talking about the same. I can understand your issue with the DT given the time frame, however it is an extra push to have it done. We're willing to listen to teams who cannot make or update the skins in time, provided they come up with good arguments.
And your comment about a joke: same can be said about the whining of some people over the forums, would you care putting a lot of time in a league for such kind of people? Apparently we still care a lot to put such amounts of time in the league regardless of all the crap we get to endure. As said before, we understand and agree that we need to improve in certain areas, but it requires some time, especially since the admin team has changed during the season.
Constructive feedback, yes please, whining: please go to your mommy.
@Paul
I see we're basically talking about the same. I can understand your issue with the DT given the time frame, however it is an extra push to have it done. We're willing to listen to teams who cannot make or update the skins in time, provided they come up with good arguments.
The constructive feedback was: Announce things in time and nobody has a problem with doing the stuff you announce.
But comming up 2 days (Thursday, Friday) with a "if you don't do this you get a penalty" if just unfair to everyone who has a real life and is not living gmt-5 something...
About website: Well, to be honest: I looked at it for less than 2 mins, because in the past it had never any important stuff on it (I have my own sheet for the 45% rule).
And the reminder on this site to use an updated logo, that was also posted just today. But that there would be a new Logo was known to the admins by weeks, but it didn't occour to them to even post a notice like: "hey folks, we have a new logo comming up and we just to warn you some time ahead as it might be released a bit too close before the race".
Never mind about the whinning from some people, it was my last season anyway.
...
If you refuse to believe that we've done our best to get the logos to you in a timely manner, that's your issue. The fact is, it didn't get put together as quickly as we would have liked, but we feel that 3 days (or even 2, Paul) is plenty of time to get a skin updated if not doing so means being penalized. Anyone can use MS Paint if it comes down to that, there's not really any excuse for getting a DT over this.
Perhaps the announcement could have also been made in the OP of this thread. That's one point of constructive criticism.
Unfortunately that one bit of constructive criticism was buried under an avalanche of insinuations, personal attacks, and gratuitous reminders of our past failings (and past failings unrelated to us). A simple suggestion rather than a page-long rant would have gone a long way toward avoiding yet another messy argument between Paul/3J and the admins. We're trying to be big boys about this but it's difficult when we keep getting dragged down into the mud.
edit: I'll be very surprised if anyone does get a DT over this.
Perhaps the announcement could have also been made in the OP of this thread. That's one point of constructive criticism.
Unfortunately that one bit of constructive criticism was buried under an avalanche of insinuations, personal attacks, and gratuitous reminders of our past failings (and past failings unrelated to us). A simple suggestion rather than a page-long rant would have gone a long way toward avoiding yet another messy argument between Paul/3J and the admins. We're trying to be big boys about this but it's difficult when we keep getting dragged down into the mud.
edit: I'll be very surprised if anyone does get a DT over this.
Wow....17 hours since the whining started about the timing of the announcement for the new skin requirement...and in that time, several people have come (sometimes come back) to the forums (while in the evening hours in Europe mind you) to whine some more. Shouldn't you be spending that time actually adjusting your skins versus whining about all of this?
Yeah yeah, I know you're going to say...what about all the people that don't see this announcement? Isn't it their responsibility to checking for things like this before a race? Instead of whining about things, it would be a lot more constructive to just change your skins and maybe even offer help to those that are finding it difficult to get those changes done.
Yeah yeah, I know you're going to say...what about all the people that don't see this announcement? Isn't it their responsibility to checking for things like this before a race? Instead of whining about things, it would be a lot more constructive to just change your skins and maybe even offer help to those that are finding it difficult to get those changes done.
I am very sorry for actually caring about this league. I won't let that happen again, sorry again for posting an opinion different to yours.
You admins are doing a really great job and I can't think of no better way of organizing this league.
You admins are doing a really great job and I can't think of no better way of organizing this league.
3J, we know you care about the league, and we appreciate that. We happen to disagree with you on these points (that 2 days is too little to alter a skin; that a DT is too harsh or a conscious attempt by the admins to find an excuse to penalize people for "fun" [Paul's words, not yours, though you agreed]). We take offense when people fabricate motivations and attribute them to us, and we take offense at personal attacks, but we do not take offense at constructive criticism. For my part, I have no problem with your contributions to this thread, aside from the redundancy of some of it and the "taking my ball and going home" aspect of the more recent posts.
Obviously, we all care about this league or we wouldn't be here arguing so passionately about everything. I just feel that some of us (on both sides) need to work on the way we express ourselves so that these debates don't turn into quagmires of arguments.
1
2
6h of Kyoto National: Drivers' Briefing
(34 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG