rofl.. then there SHOULD be ABS and TC...
how many cars have you driven that do not have ABS and TC
rofl.. then there SHOULD be ABS and TC...
how many cars have you driven that do not have ABS and TC
I have never driven a car with TC and only one car with ABS. That one nearly got me squashed by a truck. Imagine a steep hill, ice and snow all over it, a trailer truck (18-wheeler) stuck half way up coming my way, a pickup truck in my lane passing it but very slowly, and me hitting my brakes at the top doing like 10-15 mph and the stupid antilock kicking in. The brakes just kept letting go and I couldn't stop. Down the hill I went, totally out of my control. Couldn't do the sensible thing and brake without locking them up myself, the car kept "unbraking". I had no control over trying to slow the car down. The pickup truck just barely got around the rig as I went by. Antilock and traction control are DANGEROUS in real life as people who already don't know how to drive just give more control up to a stupid computer that can't read the situation as it unfolds. I will never buy a vehicle with either in it.
On that note, the formula cars and GTR's should have the option to develop your own tcs and other software (of course it would come with plain jane software tht just does the job)
in that way a team could develop thier own control programs just like real teams have to develop thier own
in that way a team could develop thier own control programs just like real teams have to develop thier own
(thisnameistaken)
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by thisnameistaken
..what are you talking about? ABS saves lives.. i would have to estimate that probably 95% of all people that drive have no idea how to work a brake without ABS
TC is different, but i still think that cars in LFS like the GTi and XRGT should have ABS atleast..
i dont know what happened to you mrodgers but sounds like the car needed a checkup.. obviously lol
but think about it this way.. ABS 'let go' for a reason, same reason as in LFS, if you lock up your brakes IRL or in LFS, you will slide MUCH further than you would if you pump the brakes (like you should with a car that does not have ABS) technically ABS saved you.. or so from what you said it sounds like it did, if you locked up your brakes.. you probably wouldnt feel to good
TC i dont know anything about (although i did feel it at use once when going to the airport a long while ago in the suburban, my dad hit a patch of ice and it slide and .. well.. didnt slide as much as it probably would have)
TC is different, but i still think that cars in LFS like the GTi and XRGT should have ABS atleast..
i dont know what happened to you mrodgers but sounds like the car needed a checkup.. obviously lol
but think about it this way.. ABS 'let go' for a reason, same reason as in LFS, if you lock up your brakes IRL or in LFS, you will slide MUCH further than you would if you pump the brakes (like you should with a car that does not have ABS) technically ABS saved you.. or so from what you said it sounds like it did, if you locked up your brakes.. you probably wouldnt feel to good
TC i dont know anything about (although i did feel it at use once when going to the airport a long while ago in the suburban, my dad hit a patch of ice and it slide and .. well.. didnt slide as much as it probably would have)
i suppose those that are as interested in the racing as teh technology behind it are a minority.
And there are those among us that would like to further that technology. in all likelyhood these improved systems would be shared as freely as setups are today. and if you dont wanna use it, youd be free to simply... not use them.
Actually it was piece of sh*t cheverolet garbage, the worst cars I've ever driven (wasn't mine). When we got married I tossed that junk and got her a decent car pretty quick. Cheverolet ABS is absolutely horrible (along with everything else they piece together and call a car). In the same situation in any of my vehicles I've had over the years, I would NOT have locked the brakes. I know how to brake and don't need the car to do it for me.
Yea, I kind of agree with you that ABS saves lives. But around here, it's not because of ABS, but because of the idiots on the road not knowing how to drive and needing ABS to help them. I don't call it driving that I see, I call it car guiding, because too many people have no idea what to do in any even minor situation that they could get into with a car. All they know is you turn the steering wheel to turn the car, press the right pedal to go and the left pedal to stop (disregarding those with 3 pedals.)
I'm going to stop now, because the idiots out on the roads really get to me. Like those around here when we get a dusting of snow that isn't even laying on the road and they forget how to drive in the stuff clear through freakin February in freakin north western Pennsylvania. They act like they have never seen snow before. I had to pull off the road going home one day because the first guy was driving so slow, even just letting out the clutch in 1st gear would run me up his tailpipe.
Yea, I kind of agree with you that ABS saves lives. But around here, it's not because of ABS, but because of the idiots on the road not knowing how to drive and needing ABS to help them. I don't call it driving that I see, I call it car guiding, because too many people have no idea what to do in any even minor situation that they could get into with a car. All they know is you turn the steering wheel to turn the car, press the right pedal to go and the left pedal to stop (disregarding those with 3 pedals.)
I'm going to stop now, because the idiots out on the roads really get to me. Like those around here when we get a dusting of snow that isn't even laying on the road and they forget how to drive in the stuff clear through freakin February in freakin north western Pennsylvania. They act like they have never seen snow before. I had to pull off the road going home one day because the first guy was driving so slow, even just letting out the clutch in 1st gear would run me up his tailpipe.
yep yep, no disagreements here (except hating the chevy part lol.. i dont really hate any car companies tbh)
but then when you think about that.. thats not really a fault of the car, but rather the people that cant drive so.. ya
but then when you think about that.. thats not really a fault of the car, but rather the people that cant drive so.. ya
Possibly, but I doubt it. Obviously they aren't the most modern cars. XR styling is mid 90s stuff at the latest, and XF styling isn't much fresher. One would be lucky to find ABS even as an option on cars like these around then.
I think as long as there is a genuine real world basis for including one of these "aids" then nobody can have any complaints. e.g, if they were to acquire rights to a real car that was fitted with it, or to a race series in which they use one of them (like the various Porsche cups which use ABS).
Very true more significantly than the styling note they're no twin turbos in LFS.
The real racing series using ABS are only using them because they are 'gentlemens'' series full of people who have no clue how to drive.
We need to recognise the difference between road/race TC -
As for TC/ABS being on real road cars it's the first thing that is stripped out before they are taken racing even at club level, these systems are designed to stop total noobs loosing control of the cars of track days and would be very limiting.
In racing cars TC is often used by professional teams when they are allowed to use it but contary to popular opinion here they don't just use it because they can't drive the cars. It actually makes the cars considerably faster with several million pounds worth of computer feeding the power down in the most efficent way, sounds horrible though and would be hard to impliment a system allowing the engine to fire on less cylinders.
The same goes for the automatic transmission F1 used to use there's no way you could have driven a manual as quickly.
IMO I wouldn't want to see such series being added or aids to help keyboarders, sorry this is a simulation of reality and I'm more than happy with you driving low power FWD hatch backs but if you can drive a 500 bhp single seater then that's just stupid. I think if S3 wants faster cars it should look back to the eighties, big touring cars, turbos and Group C what more could you want
Yeah, lets add TC and ABD to improve the simulation of reality. but why don't we have everyone have to build there own car. Have it crash tested & homologated. You'd have to budget for it, you'd have to make a manufacturing plant. Then you'd have to have supply problems now and again, and it would take about 60,000 man hours to finish a car to GTR specs.
Just because it's in reality doesn't mean it should be in LFS, and I believe that the major fun of LFS is learning to control the cars, so it's driver vs driver. If we had girly driver aids then it would just end up Scawen vs Scawen in every race.
Just because it's in reality doesn't mean it should be in LFS, and I believe that the major fun of LFS is learning to control the cars, so it's driver vs driver. If we had girly driver aids then it would just end up Scawen vs Scawen in every race.
Generally, I have to agree, but he was talking about the special case of snow.
I don't know if you live in a snowy area, but ABS + snow is a very bad idea. There exactly what he said happens - the ABS won't let you brake. If you were able to brake and lock up you'd alteast have the chance to stop, due to snow pileup infront of the wheels, but with ABS you can only hope to evade the obstacle somehow, ending your car in a ditch, tree or in some other car.
Basically ABS takes away one option without adding any benefit in that special situation.
Back to the topic of adding such things to LFS: Add all you want, as long as it's not the race-type TC/etc. that actually makes you faster, I have no problem with it. It should be a help for newbies to control the car, but it should never ever be a magic switch to get fast - that would kill LFS.
What I can't work out is why does LFS have such a large number of mouse/kb users? Other sims don't seem to suffer this sort of problem, even Racer didn't initially support KB.
To answer your question at 16 I shouldn't be driving but of the cars I driven I think 2 out of 13 had ABS and none of them had TC (and it may amaze you that only 2 of them were automatic) I think TC/ABS tends to be less common on everyday cars in Europe
.Mmmm... think of the tension. Scawen wins again!
Scary snow driving ABS story, Mike. But at 10-15mph, why not just slam it back into first and pull the handbrake on? (I like to pull the handbrake on given the slightest excuse, so this may be the idiot side of my brain talking.)
The reason why ABS is used in cars is because it makes controlling the car easier in surprizing situation, and in such situations the car stop quicker. Corner braking is one of these things. If you need to brake and avoid a collision and the situation comes all of a sudden, ABS (or ESP) may save your life. It is not that the braking is hard, it's because the situation when you need to use brakes comes so quickly and you have very little time to react, so many just panic and push the brakes as hard as they can.
As I said earlier I could easily accept all kinds of TCSs and ABS if there was option to turn them off (they would be slower in road cars) and in racing cars there were setup options to adjust them.
(thisnameistaken)
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by thisnameistaken
I should have phrased that better, my bad. What I meant, was have and option like "rip out the ABS fuse." If you have a car with ABS in real life that is definitely a way to temporarilly disable it.
Then have the option for some servers to require that, in other words, make it so you can allow drivers to have a choice, OR make all drivers in your server NOT allowed to use ABS or TCS.
Sorry, but I don't think you get what I was saying. ABS and TCS isn't about making it "easier" for someone to drive the Formula V8 or the GTR cars.
ABS, TCS, and automatics with torque converters are real life things that are found in many real life cars similar to the XF GTI, GT Turbo, RB4, etc. LFS is a SIM. If they are available, why not use them?
Now I am not saying ABS for EVERY car. The GTR cars, the F08, the F0X, those cars most likely don't come standard with ABS and TCS in real life. Nor do they come with automatic transmissions. Which is why these cars shouldn't be able to be had with ABS, TCS, or an automatic transmission.
My theory behind this is, lets get real driving aids (ABS, TCS, Automatics that upshift on you at nasty times with torque converters, etc.) but only for the appropriate cars!!!!!! Get rid of the controller assists. LFS can freaking shift your manual transmission for you in a perfectly optimized way! Does that happen in real life? Absolutely not. In real life, you can't shift your gears, you buy a car with an automatic. Want to take that car to an autocross? Tough crap, the LiveForSpeed god's wont turn your car into a manual and shift it for you in real life.
Do you all see where I am getting at? Making LFS as REAL and as much of a SIM as possible.
alright, okay that makes more sense lol
Glad to hear you are OK. In real life, if you know how to drive properly, ABS isn't the best in ICE or snow. Some ABS systems are better than others. In my mom's old Taurus wagon, the ABS system keeps the wheels right at incipient lock, on slick conditions in my car that doesn't have ABS, I can't stop much shorter than that Taurus with ABS.
Now there are some other cars, like a few Subaru's I have driven, the ABS is tuned way too much in favor of a stupid driver. In the Taurus you can slide and you can understeer when you hit the ABS because of it being at incipient lockup, but in those Subaru's, the ABS system keeps the brakes well before incipient lock so you can turn the wheel all you wanted and it would just keep releiving brake pressure. These ABS systems made it almost impossible to stop on snow and ice, wasn't even downhill either.
And yes, in snow incipient lockup or even locking the tires is slightly better because it builds up a wedge in front of the tire, you have to know what you are doing though "ZOMG MY STEERING WHEEL IS BROKEN!! IT WONT TURN!" lol
Either way, I probably wouldn't drive down a hill as steep as you described ABS or not.
Traction control can help in the snow though, even though allowing wheelspin is more effective, traction control will apply the brakes to the spinning tire and works like a limited slip diff.
If you don't have a limited slip diff your car becomes one wheel drive in the snow, whichever one spins easier gets all the power. A car without a limited slip differential can benefit slightly with TCS because by putting the brakes on the spinning tire it directs some power to the other tire.
Actually I hear it quite a bit. Ever hear of TCS and launch controll on the Formula 1 cars? There was tons about that in the commentary. Either way..I don't think that should be implemented in the FO8, the FO8 isn't really like a full out F1 car, more like a fancy version of the FOX IMO, and THOSE cars, do NOT have ABS or TCS or Launch Control.
Ever watch a GT race or whatever? That is ALL the commentators talk about. "OH OH OH! There goes the Mazda 6 into turn 7 again! That flatspot is getting bigger and bigger making that wheel easier to lock! The Porsche ABS has really been beneficial on this turn keeping the inside tire from locking!"
Either way, it may not make it more exciting, but at least in the "normal" cars in LFS that are everyday cars. Go to an autocross for me and tell me how many cars don't have ABS.
ABS can be beneficial with very agressive trail braking when it is sometimes easy to flatspot the inside rear tire. Modulate it yourself to avoid that lockup and you just took away braking force from the other 3 wheels that were gripping perfectly.
(thisnameistaken)
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by thisnameistaken
I guess so, here in the States it is very common. We still have cars that have ABS optional though, the new 2006 Ford Fusion for example.
Also here, 99.9999 percent of rental cars are automatics. Want to rent a Focus for $20 to go autocrossing for a day? Most likely it will have an automatic and ABS. Which can be an advantage in some ways. In an autocross, at low speeds the Torque converter multiplies torque slightly, also an advantage in an autocross is the kickdown to first gear wheras in many manuals you are stuck in 2nd. Sure you can do a clutchless or double clutched rev match into first, but that takes more time than in an Auto, and the gear ratios for first is usually shorter than a relatively tall first gear in an auto which may keep you right in the peak of the powerband throughout the autocross.
Bingo, it wasn't positive, but in that type of racing I can't imagion how such a thing could be. Formula one is already too automated and technical anyway. In my opinion it is more a matter of who has a better reaction time of hitting the brakes at the right time when you are 6 feet from a corner at 180MPH.
To spice up Forumula one they should get rid of TCS, launch control, and the auto-clutch gearboxes. Hell, put a freaking ban on downforce! That ought to get things interesting, but that is a whole different topic than what we are discussing here.
The styling shouldn't have anything to do with it IMO, the fact is, the cars that are street cars should have street cars have. The cars that aren't street cars shouldn't have those things. Again, I will use my example with the automatic transmissions, if you can't shift gears, you probably shouldn't be driving an Formula XR in LFS. Since it is a sim, instead of shifting the manual gears for you in the Formula XR, it should make it necessary to drive a streetcar with an automatic instead.
Anyway, I still haven't seen a significant reason why not to include it in LFS. I agree, it isn't the most important thing, I would love to see things like damage become much more realistic first, but I do think ABS, TC, and real automatic transmissions should be included eventually. And definitely in an approriate way, for example, ways to disable ABS and TC (hell, maybe even make you stop the car and have it show you a picture of a fuse box and make you figure out which fuse to rip out) , and be realistic about WHICH CARS have them or not.
Please stop getting confused between road ABS and racing ABS, just like the TC systems on road cars you seriously do not want ABS, it will be far too restrictive and is one of the first things thrown out by any club racer. Notice how no serious track day cars are offered with ABS or TC?
Back to racing ABS systems it's hard to know what type of GT racing your talking about as certainly some GT cars will have nice aids built in to cope with some fairly brain dead celebrities who like to think of themselves as racing drivers. Proper GT2 cars won't normally have ABS. Didn't seem to slow Group C cars that much.
Back to racing ABS systems it's hard to know what type of GT racing your talking about as certainly some GT cars will have nice aids built in to cope with some fairly brain dead celebrities who like to think of themselves as racing drivers. Proper GT2 cars won't normally have ABS. Didn't seem to slow Group C cars that much.
Traction Control and Anti-Lock Brakes
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