Had extreme understeer in practice at Silverstone at the weekend. Absolutely none of this silly drop off to nothing as in nK and rF. In fact I don't remember any change in steering torque required, just a lack of turning with more lock.

Shouldn't the steering 'stiffness' also depend on how much weight is on the front wheels? Extreme example being the car going weightless(or even airborne) when driving over a crest.

Which already happens anyway?

Quote from AndroidXP :

Which already happens anyway?

If it does it does not seem to work as it should, I can put a 20 ton engine on the GTI and between it standing still and being upside down I dont feel any difference in the "stiffness" of the wheel. But if it is true that LFS only uses the constant force effects then I doubt the effect is even there as it propably would be pretty difficult to implement using only it.

Of course it is implemented. Are you sure you have the centring spring effect turned off? When the wheels don't touch the ground or when the car gets light (SO Chicane Route after long straight, anyone? ), the resistance is weaker or goes away completely.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Of course it is implemented. Are you sure you have actually the centering spring effect turned off? When the wheels don't touch the ground or when the car gets light (SO Chicane Route after long straight, anyone? ), the resistance is weaker or goes away completely.

Yes, I feel (Or actually don't feel) it. Other good track to test it is Aston Cadet.

Quote from Kegetys :

Shouldn't the steering 'stiffness' also depend on how much weight is on the front wheels? Extreme example being the car going weightless(or even airborne) when driving over a crest.

For further extreme examples: I seem to recall it happening in the rallycross tracks and when jumping off ramps, etc. Generally the weight perceived seems to be pretty much in accordance to what I'm seeing on screen (regardless if the values or whatever are real or if feels 100% like a real wheel would).

Quote from AndroidXP :

When the wheels don't touch the ground or when the car gets light (SO Chicane Route after long straight, anyone? ), the resistance is weaker or goes away completely.

Are you sure it is the actual wheel turning resistance changing, and not just the aligning torque (or whatever it is called, that the front wheels cause when they are turning and have a slip angle) effect fading away? Having the resistance go away completely is in fact very difficult with FFB altogether, and that is something I am certain is not possible at all with the constant force effects. A finely tuned negative friction value can give a feeling close to it but it will cause the wheel to start accelerating if you let go a bit

Quote from xaotik :

For further extreme examples: I seem to recall it happening in the rallycross tracks and when jumping off ramps, etc.

Note that when you go airborne, the aligning torque (or whatever) goes away which you of course can feel already, but it is not the same effect and not what I mean.

a car with the wheels in the air will still have some friction in the steering rack
do i understand you correctly that you mean lfs deosnt try to compensate the high friction in ffb wheels?

Since it's not LFS generating the wheel resistance, but the wheel itself, it's of course not possible for LFS to compensate for these hardware shortcomings. Though I'm wondering what kind of wheel you have that this resistance is playing a major part in your force feedback feel.

Quote from Shotglass :

do i understand you correctly that you mean lfs deosnt try to compensate the high friction in ffb wheels?

What I mean is, that the stiffness of the wheel should depend on how much weight is on the front wheels. By how much, I dont know. But if you consider the extreme example I gave, between a car that has no load on the front wheels and a car that has <insert big number here> of weight on the front wheels you ought to feel a difference between how much effort is required to turn the wheel. This should be felt wether the car is moving or not (maybe to a lesser extent when the car is moving?), and it is not a force that has a certain direction like the aligning torque which you can simulate with a constant force. You could see the steering wheel doing nothing when going from zero to <big number> of loading on the front wheels, but if you were trying to turn it at the same time you propably could feel it coming stiffer, regardless of which way you were turning it.

Phew, long text to explain such a simple thing

Quote from AndroidXP :

Since it's not LFS generating the wheel resistance, but the wheel itself...

Which was exactly my point all along, force feedback provides plenty of effects that can change the resistance of the wheel but LFS uses none of it and only uses the constant force to apply the aligning torque.

But the wheel is already at the minimum resistance, no? How can an effect create less resistance than minimum?

Quote from Kegetys :

But if you consider the extreme example I gave, between a car that has no load on the front wheels and a car that has <insert big number here> of weight on the front wheels you ought to feel a difference between how much effort is required to turn the wheel.

only if you turn it against the aligning torque... in the other direction the wheel will always turn for you (unless maybe in silly examples like 200 tons on the front with 0 caster)

Quote :

This should be felt wether the car is moving or not

nope only when its not moving sicne any movement will create treil and alinging torques which will be much much larger than the resistance to turning the wheel

and i believe you can alsready feel the effect if you compare the resistance of the wheel in eg the lx4 with the one in the xrt while standing still... and even more so if you lock the wheels with the brakes

Quote from AndroidXP :

But the wheel is already at the minimum resistance, no?

I dont think it should be if there's 20t of weight on the wheels :drunk:

Quote from AndroidXP :

How can an effect create less resistance than minimum?

You get the rotation velocity of the wheel and then use the FFB motor to "help" it keep going. When a proper effect is used to do this the wheel hardware can do it fast enough that it works quite well, unlike if you try to "emulate" the effect with a constant force the lag/rate/etc. of the USB bus alone will be a problem.

edit: Also I think the Momo Racing applies such an effect by "default" already, as it comes lighter to turn when you power it on, and if you turn it very fast it suddenly becomes very stiff as the internal FFB cannot keep up anymore.

I thought we were talking about wheels in the air/no load situations? Anyway, what can be the case in the situation you are describing is that the when standing still, the bending rubber due to rotation does not have as much grip (=effect on steering resistance) as it should

The longitudinal grip is much more pronounced, which you notice when you step on the brakes while standing still, which will additionally hinder the wheels from rotating and relieving the stress that builds up due to the wheels moving around slightly when steering.

You might be able to reduce the steering resistance even further by using the built in effects, but even then the normal resistance is hardly noticeable compared to the resistance actual FF operation causes (or it ceases to cause when the wheels are in the air/unloaded).

Quote from Kegetys :

Also I think the Momo Racing applies such an effect by "default" already, as it comes lighter to turn when you power it on, and if you turn it very fast it suddenly becomes very stiff as the internal FFB cannot keep up anymore.

nah thats just opening the saftey circutry thats keeping the motor from killing the unpowered speed control unit (i suppose they just short the motor when the power isnt connected)

Quote from Kegetys :

What I mean is, that the stiffness of the wheel should depend on how much weight is on the front wheels. By how much, I dont know. But if you consider the extreme example I gave, between a car that has no load on the front wheels and a car that has <insert big number here> of weight on the front wheels you ought to feel a difference between how much effort is required to turn the wheel. This should be felt wether the car is moving or not (maybe to a lesser extent when the car is moving?), and it is not a force that has a certain direction like the aligning torque which you can simulate with a constant force. You could see the steering wheel doing nothing when going from zero to <big number> of loading on the front wheels, but if you were trying to turn it at the same time you propably could feel it coming stiffer, regardless of which way you were turning it.

Phew, long text to explain such a simple thing

Until now I think no racing sim simulates this in a proper way.

Direction column friction/damper/spring has two parts: the friction/damper/spring from mechanism (rack and pinion, assisted direction) and the friction/damper/spring from tyres on the road when you steer.
ISI engine tries to simulate mechanism f/d using arbitrary coefficients. If properly adjusted for the FFB wheel, it feels nice.

Tyres friction/damper/spring from tyres while steering depend on front load and wheels rotation speed. As you go faster, it quickly becomes very small compared to steering forces. I suppose that is why sims do not simulate it.

I think FFB in racing sims is still in it's infancy. Every racing sim should come with a tool to help you choose the proper FFB strength, damper, friction, so that your wheel left alone behaves as sim developer want in some specific condition. Wheels are very different in inertia, power, reductor...but this can be estimated automatically with a tool performing a benchmark. With such a tool, a sim could feel almost the same on various wheels.

Edit: rFactor RealFeel plugin seems to simulates this thanks to LBodnar LeoFFB plugin. Above a certain speed, it uses steering forces for FFB. Below it uses friction calculated from load, speed, rubber stiffness...

Quote from Gekkibi :

Steering becomes lighter when I drove on ice using RWD. Don't know how it feels when using FWD, because I have never owned one...

It becomes lighter with FWD too.