WRC class becoming S2000/Group N based in 2011

This was already rumoured for a while so not really a surprise. This transformation better attract some more interest from manufacturers or then this is going to be epic failure. At least there's quite big list of manufacturers involved (in a way or another) with S2000 cars.

There is going to be quite annoying problem for FIA: how can they suddenly degrade WRC class so much and still continue calling it WRC? What will become new Group N replacement? Plus side is that cars are going to be much cheaper and have less eletronics (e.g. only mechanical diffs). Maybe that keeps them enough spectacular, because not like even the current WRC cars had TOO big engines in the first place.

I'm actually surprised why FIA haven't thought about making WRC more "green". I'm serious. Production based cars sounds ideal for that.

Maybe 2-day rally events in the future?

Feels like a natural move after rallies getting shorter and shorter (actually this year 350 --> 400 km) with these sprint stages that are driven two times per day. Not like I was expecting to see Safari Rally back on the calendar anyway.

Plus next season the rotational calendar becomes active (and only 12 rallies per season, which IS good after all). Rally Wales and Monte Carlo - see you next time in 2010.

It went downhill ages ago, its just getting closer to the bottom of the slope now.

well we could wait for this , whit that new rally class (forget the name)

the money is killing the class

One of the best moves for ages. The current WRC cars are far too fast and unspectacular to watch. 2WD and much longer rallies would be better still though.

While ago (I guess you were referring to this) 2WD was actually a serious idea by our sympathetic fetish man (Mosley). But no thanks, that would for centainly have meant front wheel drive.

Quote from deggis :

While ago (I guess you were referring to this) 2WD was actually a serious idea by our sympathetic fetish man (Mosley). But no thanks, that would for centainly have meant front wheel drive.

No it would mean RWDs becoming dominant again and so long as the WRC was taken seriously enough by manufacturers a string of nice RWD drivers cars as homologation specials.

To be honest I get a nasty feeling that all international motorsport is beginning to go downhill.

Oh FFS. It's about time FIA took their ball and went home. First they're making F1 "green", and now this? They're doing more harm than good at this point.

Time to start looking for a new hobby I think. Anyone for gardening? Can you fit turbochargers on petunias?

Quote from wien :

Oh FFS. It's about time FIA took their ball and went home. First they're making F1 "green", and now this? They're doing more harm than good at this point.

Time to start looking for a new hobby I think. Anyone for gardening? Can you fit turbochargers on petunias?

Before you fly off the wall look at what a mess rallying has got itself into. Has it not got smaller entry lists, shorter stages, less demanding stages and more big crashes than ever before? And don't the current crop of WRC cars look unbelievably boring to watch? Just as cars they're dull, sure they take great skill to drive and are far faster than older simpler machinery but they're not exciting in the same way.

Simply making the cars faster and faster isn't going to help, rallying should be about endurance not a set of sprints. The faster you make the cars the more the cost to run, meaning teams demand shorter stages, and the more dangerous they become, meaning crowds have to become better managed and chicanes added to fast sections. As stages get shorter drivers drive harder because it becomes less of an endurance event and push too hard and have big crashes more often. Crowds also have less space to fill on shorter stages resulting in more stages being canceled. It all goes round in a viscous circle and unless rallying and its endurance routes are put before what sponsors, TV channels and organisers (who want short accessible stages to draw the general public) want then it's just going to remain a mess.

Quote from wien :

Can you fit turbochargers on petunias?

No, but in a Binford lawnmower
Har Har

Quote from ajp71 :

No it would mean RWDs becoming dominant again and so long as the WRC was taken seriously enough by manufacturers a string of nice RWD drivers cars as homologation specials.

No if FIA doesn't want (now fortunately: would not have wanted). FWD fits better their picture of safety and all that.

I think this idea by Fetish Man was taken quite seriously. After this news Subaru unofficially threatened to quit. Obviously 4WD is big deal for them.

Quote from ajp71 :

And don't the current crop of WRC cars look unbelievably boring to watch? Just as cars they're dull, sure they take great skill to drive and are far faster than older simpler machinery but they're not exciting in the same way.

True. Old rwd Escort from '70s beats them what comes to spectacle. But in this (cars becoming boring to watch in action) regards WRC is not special, same thing could be said about lots of other forms of racing too. At least since traction control.

ex-WRC cars used in the European Rallycross Champ. have 100 hp or something more. Just shows how restricted WRC is.

FIA/ISC will keep trying to make it F1-like media sexy sport (which rallying simply isn't) and trying to make it work in live programming which won't work unless all stages are moved to the stadiums like Race of Champions.

I wonder how the "more spectator friendly stages" concept is working, how often this is seen nowadays? (And not talking about people's willingness to get smacked by the car, but the amount of them on the stage.)

-

I, for one, am fully supportive of the change to S2000-based spec. Now all they need to do is get rid of the electronic centre differentials and replace them with passive diffs.

As for "degrading", it's not really degrading at all. The WRCars are fast, no doubt, but seriously lacking in the spectacle department. The S2000+turbo+aero will be much faster than the current Group N (plain S2000 cars are already faster), and probably comparable to the early WRCars of the '98-'00 era. Given several years of development, the new S2000+turbo+aero spec will most likely eclipse current WRCars. If you make the cars any faster, you risk rewinding the clock to the bad old Group B days: fun but very lethal.

Then there is the cost issue. A S2000-based championship car will probably cost around a quarter of what a current WRC-spec car costs now (with WRC cars quoted between US$1-1.5M, and N/A versions of S2000 regulated to maximum 168,000 Euros; standard turbo and aero kit is not likely to cost much more than say 20,000 Euros). That removes the biggest barrier to manufacturer involvement.

The length of rallies is a minor issue. I think 2 days is probably the minimum acceptable length as long as they are challenging stages, not mickey-mouse playgrounds. 4 days is a reasonable length. There are not many rallies running longer than 4 days apart from novelty or non-championship rallies.

The 24-rally, 2-year cycle format, was exactly my suggestion at another motorsport/driving forum. Manufacturers want exposure, and there are a number of countries who itch at the chance to host international racing events (Middle East, East Asia), in return for big money. There is no reason why those two factors can't be accommodated. My only concern is that some of the "traditional" rallies might miss out: Monte Carlo, Sweden, Portugal, Greece, Finland, Britain, and the Tour de Corse.

I would just prefer to see cars rallying that are simular to the ones you buy in the dealers, Wheres all these 4wd turbo charged focus's 307's and C4's come from? And why where citroen allowed to run that xsara for so long after they stopped making it? Ive not followed wrc for many years now its just so dull something needs to be changed.

Quote from andybarsblade :

And why where citroen allowed to run that xsara for so long after they stopped making it?

Eh? They run the C4, the replacement for the Xsara.

yes they do now but they ran the xsara for years after production stopped

C4 was made at the end of 04 and they decided not to use it for 05 due to the lack of development, then in 06 PSA withdrew so Citroen didn't introduce the C4 but it came in 07 when Citroen came back as a manufactaur

Quote from deggis :

No if FIA doesn't want (now fortunately: would not have wanted). FWD fits better their picture of safety and all that.

I think this idea by Fetish Man was taken quite seriously. After this news Subaru unofficially threatened to quit. Obviously 4WD is big deal for them.

Personally I'd throw away the current rule book and start again. Say 2 litre naturally aspirated engines based on (mainstream large numbers) production blocks but otherwise pretty free, so we'd get a nice punch of peaky little racing engines that sound fantastic and aren't terribly powerful. Cars based on the old 200 car homologation rules, opening the doors to all sorts of sports cars and rally specials. Forcing 2WD, conventional differentials and H-pattern gearboxes. Drive and engine location would have to stay at the same end of the car so RWD cars, especially small mid-engined sports cars would have a big advantage. Heavily limit bodywork modifications, lighter replacement panels but the same profile, only flared wheel arches and removal of bodywork for practical reasons of running on rough courses, no wings. Carbon fibre bumpers could be banned, reducing costs enormously (I seem to remember it was said a WRC team gets through 20 bumpers on some rallies, and they cost several thousand pounds each), instead manufacturers could have a choice of production bumpers (with only material removal allowed for practical reasons). Brakes/suspension could remain pretty much free as they are today.

Quote from andybarsblade :

And why where citroen allowed to run that xsara for so long after they stopped making it? Ive not followed wrc for many years now its just so dull something needs to be changed.

I doubt the regs say you've got to use a current car. There are old models racing in most major championships, there's always some previous gen (or in some cases two gen old) 911s racing in FIA GT, they don't make the MG, Integra or old model Civic racing in BTCC anymore and people are still building new E36 M3s on huge budgets in Dutch Supercars/Britcar, based on the fact that it's a better bodyshell for conversion to a racing car than the later 3 series.

And the E36 is prolly also a cheaper and easier shell to obtain. And is in the end just as good.

Quote from andybarsblade :

I would just prefer to see cars rallying that are simular to the ones you buy in the dealers, Wheres all these 4wd turbo charged focus's 307's and C4's come from? And why where citroen allowed to run that xsara for so long after they stopped making it? Ive not followed wrc for many years now its just so dull something needs to be changed.

er i guess you forgot about the '70s in rallying as i never once saw a stratos on display in our local lancia dealership and it's production finished in 74 yet it went on to win the world championship in 75 and 76 as well as 74 and won the montecarlo in 79 and the tour de corse in 81 with bernard darniche. also vatanen won the drivers championship in 81 with an rs1800 despite the mk2 escort being replaced by the mk3 in sept 1980 and i have actualy seen more road going peugeot 205 t16's than roadgoing fully trimed rs1800 s

i must admit though that i'd prefer it if the cars were based on real road models and specifications, if your going to allow 4wd versions of fwd cars then why not impose a rwd specifictaion to increase the thrills for the fans.

Groub B

Quote from tinvek :

er i guess you forgot about the '70s in rallying as i never once saw a stratos on display in our local lancia dealership and it's production finished in 74 yet it went on to win the world championship in 75 and 76 as well as 74 and won the montecarlo in 79 and the tour de corse in 81 with bernard darniche. also vatanen won the drivers championship in 81 with an rs1800 despite the mk2 escort being replaced by the mk3 in sept 1980 and i have actualy seen more road going peugeot 205 t16's than roadgoing fully trimed rs1800 s

i must admit though that i'd prefer it if the cars were based on real road models and specifications, if your going to allow 4wd versions of fwd cars then why not impose a rwd specifictaion to increase the thrills for the fans.

I thought in group B they had to produce and sell 200 cars before it could be rallied? thats why you CAN buy a stratos/rs200/T16 but you cannot buy a 4wd turbo xsara/focus/307cc from the manufacturer.

That was the idea, but it's the same as World Super Bikes, they didn't actually have to sell any, they only had to make them available to buy

Quote from Thorvertonian :

That was the idea, but it's the same as World Super Bikes, they didn't actually have to sell any, they only had to make them available to buy

I don't think there's any obligation for them to offer the cars for sale, although selling the batch solves the issue of what to do with 200 cars kicking about that were rather expensive to build. AFAIK BMW never offered a V8 E36, which it supposedely built 200 of, most likely they probably ended up as shells for competition cars and the engines kept as spares for M5 production cars.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67078
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67077

Does FIA hear the alarm clock?

It doesn't make sense to me, WRC gets crap coverage at the moment. When everyone gets digital TV that works it should improve a lot, because nobody in my area can get Dave, and it seems thats the case for a lot of people. Citreon can't really use rally technology in the car, and its not much of a marketing tool because you don't think rally when you see a Citreon. Given their new marketing campaign I think the DTM would be great for them. But DTM needs to sort itself out a bit so its taken more seriously and gets more internation coverage.