einstein didn't say only correct things, you know... he said some pretty stupid things as well... just because einstein said something doesn't mean it is correct.
The first rule in all this is that there is no "authority"
wow... being accelerated and standing is the same... wicked...
I think all GregorV is trying to instill in you is to keep an open mind and just because something is taken as fact now doesn't mean it will be always fact throughout history "what we know" has been turned on its head many times by new discoveries... and there is nothing to say there want be another such discovery when individuals have a closed mind and say it must be this way and no other way! it limits their ability to discover new possibilities
No you didn't insult anyone, but on the other hand you were not willing to see something from someone else's perspective... you never know looking through others eyes just may enable you to see something you have never seen before doesn't mean the way they see it is correct either but may still enable you to see things differently thus shedding new light on a subject, we are all learning and never will stop.
You remind me of young engineers that venture out and take up there first positions in the real wourld, they often get themselves in all sorts of bother because they insist their way can not be ever the wrong way! They soon learn that the lowly tradesman that has 20 years real life experience sometimes know more than he gives them credit for Whats in a text book and what happens in real life sometimes doesn't match up.
Lots of things have been rethought and discovered to be wrong, but there are some things that unless up becomes down, black becomes white, and pigs not only fly but engage f15s in dogfights and WIN, they will remain so. Go read feynman's "Character of Physical Law".
Excuse me, but questioning the value of my Ph.D. and comparing me to people who you seem not to have much regard for is an insult. Not an insult that I would be particularly affected by, mind you, it is simply that this is not the level of conversation I accept.
And debating scientific concepts that may or may not have any merit is not an insult; it is the very essence of science. I will withdraw myself from this discussion here (it is OT anyway), but I would be quite glad if, after you obtain your degree, which I am sure you will have no trouble obtaining as you appear rather smart, you think back upon this discussion and see if your opinions are still as clearcut.
Well, I think you are all missing the point. Of course I have not and I am willing to share it with you. () Human ear can not detect acceleration, it can detect the change in acceleration. Search google about how human inner ear works. How we feel balance etc...
Of course human can feel the difference between 6 Gs and 0.5 Gs, even if the situation is "static". The major things about feeling the acceleration are a) inner ear detects the change in acceleration, b) you notice that your arms are heavier, lighter, pull into different direction etc. and c) eye sight, noticing movement around yourself.
Why:
I have played Gran Turismo on playstation for many years before my LFS "season" so I really must know how things work. Because I study at uni I must know anything. Therefore you know less and physics are thefore not you thing. Me > you. That includes physical size as well
I have. You might benefit from reading some of these:
@Book{chalmers82, author = {A. F. Chalmers}, title = {What Is This Thing Called Science?}, publisher = {Open University Press}, year = {1982}, address = {Milton Keynes, UK}, edition = {Second} }
@Article{quine51, author = {W. V. O. Quine}, title = {Two Dogmas of Empiricism}, journal = {Philosophical Review}, year = 1951, volume = 60, number = 1, pages = {20-43} }
@Book{hume55, author = {D. Hume}, title = {An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding}, publisher = {Bobbs-Merrill}, year = {1748 / 1955}, editor = {C. W. Hendel}, address = {New York} }
@BOOK{vanFraassen80, AUTHOR = {B. C. van Fraassen}, ADDRESS = {Oxford}, PUBLISHER = {Oxford University Press}, TITLE = {The Scientific Image}, YEAR = {1980} }
@Book{popper68, author = {K. R. Popper}, title = {The Logic of Scientific Discovery}, publisher = {Hutchinson}, year = {1968}, address = {London}, edition = {Revised} } @Book{popper72, author = {K. R. Popper}, title = {Conjectures and Refutations: The Growth of Scientific Knowledge}, publisher = {Routledge}, year = {1972}, address = {London}, edition = {Fourth} }
@Book{lakatos76, author = {I. Lakatos}, editor = {J. Worrall and Elie Zahar}, title = {Proofs and Refutations}, publisher = {Cambridge University Press}, year = 1976, address = {Cambridge} }
@Book{feyerabend88, author = {P. K. Feyerabend}, title = {Against Method}, publisher = {Verso}, year = 1988, address = {London}, edition = {Revised} }
If I could make a further suggestion, you might also find that your intellectual debates are more fruitful if you keep them more civil.
Most theories state that gravity has 3 effects, it slows down the passage of time, it curves space, and it's an attractive force between objects. In my opinion, all 3 of these qualites are independent, versus the opinion that there the curvature of space is responsible for the attractive force. Now I could accept the opposite, that the strength of a gravitational field that creates the attractive force, also curves space, but I still would feel that these are different properties of gravity.
Even with an open differential (zero locking factor), with just one wheel spinning, a car doesn't yaw very much, if any, at launch. With both wheels spinning, the amount of lateral grip is reduced greatly, so it doesn't take a lot of force to yaw the car, but in real life it's not next to impossible to keep a car pointed straight with the rear wheels spinning. I don't know if this is a tire model, differential model, or torque / downforce issue in LFS.
Or the lack of feeling in your seat/bum. You keep forgetting that, and it's a HUGE part of feeling oversteer. I don't know why you won't except it as a valid reason. Perhaps it's because it doesn't happen in other sims? Has it occured to you that other sims might be fudging things to make the easier and appear more realistic? Don't get me wrong, I think part of the problem IS tyres, diffs and something weird, but onlyy 50% at most.
My post wasn't about oversteer, it was about launching with both rear wheels spinning. Unlike a oversteer situation, the car isn't turning (at least it shouldn't be), it's just going straight, with a minimal of side forces on the rear tires. It's doable in real life, even with very high powered cars, but not on LFS's FO8.
Slightly random thought. Todd has posted in the past, both here and on RSC, about the limitations in current tyre models when combining lateral and longitudinal grip.
If memory serves, its something to do with how if you have a lot of longitudinal slip, ie your using all your long. grip, current models give you less lateral grip than you'd have in real life.
Maybe. I cant quite remember what he said, but anyway supposing my paraphrase above is accurate, then it kind of makes sense that when you do a burnout in LFS (or many other sims) the tyre model doesnt give you any lateral grip and this increases the probability of the back end stepping out. Whereas in reality, even with a lot of longitundinal slip, you still get some lateral grip.
Blah, its just a theory, hopefully todd will come back and clear it all up
So getting back on topic, in my opinion, if there's a bug in the physics, then I would prefer having traction control as an option to mask the bug, until the bug is fixed.
So does that mean that rather than a traction circle, the true picture would be more like a traction octagon or similar? In other words, in practice there is no way to get 100% longitudinal and 0% latitudinal grip out of a tyre?
Colcob, your memory is right. Indeed that's what can happen in a tire model very easily. My own all suffered from that problem until only a few months ago when it suddenly dawned on me how to fix it (including the Virtual RC Racing model).
jtr, you still wind up with a traction circle, it's just that things won't really converge properly on it. Also, while driving well inside the traction circle, things need to be right too, otherwise the car can feel like it very suddenly loses grip at some point.
Well the way I see it, traction circle theory is merely a way for drivers to better understand how a car handles and is not a good way to model lateral and longitudinal grip as it is too simplistic.
As you stated even when longitudinal grip is beyond its limit there should still be some lateral grip and how tyres behave in different states (i.e. well within there limits, at or near their limits and just over there limits) make it quite difficult to get all the variables just right.
In my mind it would seem necessary to treat each “different state” with a different set of variables which will describe the traction in that phase and of course treat each tyre separately and preferably each segment on the tyre, but you would have to draw the line somewhere as the CPU overhead would become ridiculously high.
True, but would you call the XF GTi, the RB4, the GT, GT Turbo, etc. "serious track day" cars? I would call the GTR's serious track day cars though.
True, I was just using it as an example that there are ABS systems used. I am just pushing for street cars in LFS to have ABS and some with allot of power, like the GT Turbo to have traction control. And a realistic automatic transmission with a torque converter and fuel saving upshifts as well.
Why do I push for this? Because I think it is much more realistic than having "Brake help" "throttle help" "automatic shifting." LFS already has crude forms of automatic transmissions, ABS, and traction control, the only thing is, they are unrealistic and just about anyone can drive the F08 and GTR's with these systems.
If a celebrity is on the track in a Porsche 911, sure they might get ABS and call themselves a race car driver, but at least a robot doesn't operate the clutch and change the gears for them like it does in LiveForSpeed.
I am a real simulator junkie though...I love LFS, but I think it would only get better if they threw out the unrealistic driver assists that can be used on any car in favor of more realistic systems that real cars have.
ARGH...right now LFS freaking changes the gears in your manual transmission for you, IN THE F08!!! It already has crude traction control systems and traction control!
Implementing ABS, Traction Control, and REAL automatic transmissions on THE APPROPRIATE CARS ONLY would make this a very realistic sim, and of course get rid of the crude systems we have already that modify control inputs that can be used on all cars. The driver can disable these systems on that specific car that MIGHT have those features, and or servers can only allow the use of NO DRIVER AID systems like ABS TC and automatic transmissions. Hell, a server can say which cars you can't use, it should be able to say which driver aids you can't use too.
I am almost starting to get the feeling that people think I want to implement perfect ABS and traction control on the F08 and force people to use it.....
No need for a new one, especially if ppl are going to keep triple posting
No from me to ABS or traction control in LFS. I think driving the more powerful beasts in LFS might be a little less dangerous once the tyres get looked at...
All cars in LFS can change your manual gears and clutch for you. All cars in LFS can have a crude form of ABS. All cars in LFS can have a crude form of traction control. How? Just enable the shit in your driver assists.
What I meant by manual, is that it is still a manual transmission, with perfect manual shift points, and a clutch, but LFS has the ability to change it for you.
I honestly think if you need these assists, then you should use them like in a real car. In real life if you can't change your gears, you go buy a Buick Lesabre with a automatic transmission. I doubt that person will be able to drive a Formula 1 car. In LFS though, just enable it in the settings and these systems help you out, no matter what the car.
Maybe I should rephrase my view on this whole thing.
Instead of saying "ADD ABS and traction controll and automatics," how about I say:
"REMOVE the assists from the real race cars and fit them only to appropriate race cars, give servers the ability to disallow these assists, and on the few cars that remain, make them more realistic. Instead of it shifting manual gears with a clutch perfectly, make it behave like a REAL automatic, REAL ABS, REAL TC"
I know, my posts have been a bit excessive, but it is probably just as irritating if I clump it all into one massive post that takes up the whole page.
True, the tires are something. I think there actually should be quite a few things implemented or changed first before making the assists worthy of being in a "simulation" game.
I think all tires can break too easilly. I made the exact setup of my own car using LFS tweak and my own custom setup. In my car with the steering wheel turned all the way, on an off camber slope, and slippery cement, I don't have enough torque to peel out even if I floorboard it and pop the clutch, LFS makes it insanely easy to do a 60 foot burnout in an inline-4 car that really isn't that powerful and can only top out at 100mph.
throughout history "what we know" has been turned on its head many times by new discoveries... and there is nothing to say there want be another such discovery 
when individuals have a closed mind and say it must be this way and no other way! it limits their ability to discover new possibilities 
doesn't mean the way they see it is correct either but may still enable you to see things differently thus shedding new light on a subject, we are all learning and never will stop.
) Human ear can not detect acceleration, it can detect the change in acceleration. Search google about how human inner ear works. How we feel balance etc...
If you want tell us we have to try and guess! 
