And will possibly always be so, I think.

The objective of the CTRA is not simply to provide racing servers. From its inception, the underlying intention was to change the way people race in public servers in LFS. I bet you don't remember the days when rejoining directly into traffic was just what people did, sod the consequence. You probably don't remember the days when Blue Flags were lost on most people.. they were completely meaningless.

With the CTRA, we attempted to up the awareness of racing conventions and extend the ramifications of ignoring them. We've made a concerted effort to focus on education and cleaning up the racing, rather than just clearing out the unruly and uneducated. We've tried to do this as personably as we could, on a case-by-case basis, despite a large-scale deployment of servers. I think a lot of what we've tried to do has been averaged across all public server racing, and is lost in the passage of time, but I guess that's just sod's law. I choose to believe we made a bit of a difference in the big picture though.

Quote from SamH :

The objective of the CTRA is not simply to provide racing servers. From its inception, the underlying intention was to change the way people race in public servers in LFS. I bet you don't remember the days when rejoining directly into traffic was just what people did, sod the consequence. You probably don't remember the days when Blue Flags were lost on most people.. they were completely meaningless.

do you have an account that lets you observe what goes on in those servers without letting people know an admin is present?
from the numbers youve posted i dont think the amount of reports you process reflect whats going on in there and without an account that has admin written all over it youll never be able to see it for yourself

that aside the underlying problem is the points system... now i know weve been through this countless times and becky has called a lot of people very stupid for bringing this up but adding more competition and giving people something to gloat about through userbars cannot work if all youll ever do is sit people down and give them a talking to
if you make drivers more competitive than they already are thelly have to deal with harsher consequences if the overstep the line as well... otherwise it will end in the mayhem we saw when the single seater servers first opened

Quote from Shotglass :

do you have an account that lets you observe what goes on in those servers without letting people know an admin is present?
from the numbers youve posted i dont think the amount of reports you process reflect whats going on in there and without an account that has admin written all over it youll never be able to see it for yourself

Yes.

Quote from SamH :

And will possibly always be so, I think.

I take it by that you mean that my lack of appreciation for the format will "always be so". If that's the case then I would agree, if nothing is likely to change, but I was trying to make a point beyond my own personal opinion. I don't think it's pompous to assume that I'm not alone in my opinion.

Quote from SamH :

The objective of the CTRA is not simply to provide racing servers. From its inception, the underlying intention was to change the way people race in public servers in LFS. I bet you don't remember the days when rejoining directly into traffic was just what people did, sod the consequence. You probably don't remember the days when Blue Flags were lost on most people.. they were completely meaningless.

I remember any days that you remember - I've been here since the S2 demo. Your implication that your system has improved driver standards on third-party servers is nothing more than an implication, given that there's no way of demonstrating it either way. In my opinion, driving standards on third-party servers that are actively administrated are currently better than those on CTRA servers.

This isn't a dig at the CTRA organisation at all - I like you guys personally, and I figure given my forum volume that the active ones amongst you are probably aware of that. But it does suggest something's wrong with your system, given that it's intended to reward (at the most basic level) quality racing habits.

Quote from SamH :

With the CTRA, we attempted to up the awareness of racing conventions and extend the ramifications of ignoring them. We've made a concerted effort to focus on education and cleaning up the racing, rather than just clearing out the unruly and uneducated.

Unfortunately you're battling against the might of public server gaming. People discover what's actually acceptable - perhaps it's what won't be reported - rather than what's expected of them, and they drive accordingly. I've seen it every time I've connected recently and it's really not reportable, it's epidemic. That is not an exaggeration.

I'm assuming you know I am supportive of your efforts and I appreciate the amount of work that's gone into the system (probably more than I can appreciate, to be honest), but unfortunately like any rigid system it's prone to failure, and abuse has become such a standard that it is now failing at its most basic level.

All IMHO of course, but run a couple of races at SS1 and see for yourself. What worries me most is that - given the system's high profile in LFS - these crappy driving standards may become de-facto. And that sooner or later all servers will be overrun with shitty drivers who think they're hitting the marks expected of them because they never got hammered by the CTRA.

We get all manner of reports, ranging from speed hackers and wrecker reports right down to skirmishes for corners, bad language and bad attitudes. Repeat offenders that don't or won't learn do get permanently banned. People who are regulars on the server and who are prolific reporters of perhaps seemingly insignificant incidents do paint dark pictures of individuals over time, and we act on them. Nothing that is ever reported is deleted. It's all there for us to identify patterns, even the dismissed-as-trivial stuff. I think I'd be aware of issues of epic proportions.

I don't think it's broken. I don't think it's faulty. I don't think racing on CTRA is the abysmal experience you describe at all. But that's just my opinion, for what it's worth, based on my own observations during my time on the servers. I don't have any explanation why your experiences on the servers are so fundamentally different from mine, and don't know if it comes down to my good fortune or your bad luck.

I suspect you enter with a pair of "this thing doesn't work" glasses on and try as you may, that's all you can see. Perhaps I'm wrong.

PS: I like you too, Kev. This isn't personal. I just don't see what you see at all. Not even slightly.

Quote from SamH :

We get all manner of reports, ranging from speed hackers and wrecker reports right down to skirmishes for corners, bad language and bad attitudes. Repeat offenders that don't or won't learn do get permanently banned.

Speed hackers or wreckers I assume get permanently banned immediately and permanently. I can't see any other response being practical. Anyway I'm not talking about those.

Quote from SamH :

People who are regulars on the server and who are prolific reporters of perhaps seemingly insignificant incidents do paint dark pictures of individuals over time, and we act on them. Nothing that is ever reported is deleted. It's all there for us to identify patterns, even the dismissed-as-trivial stuff.

Other servers act on those behaviours immediately. It doesn't take an established pattern of driving like a dickhead (or, rather, reported driving like a dickhead - something else entirely) to result action against someone, they're simply removed. That's instantly better than your system.

Quote from SamH :

I don't think it's broken. I don't think it's faulty. I don't think racing on CTRA is the abysmal experience you describe at all. But that's just my opinion, for what it's worth, based on my own observations during my time on the servers. I don't have any explanation why your experiences on the servers are so fundamentally different from mine, and don't know if it comes down to my good fortune or your bad luck.

Most recent example: I joined your SS1 server the other night running KY2. Started towards the back of the grid, into T1 (proper) the two cars infront of me collided and spun. I slowed a bit (having had something in reserve to allow me to, given that it was T1 and I'm not a dickhead) and went around the inside of them, and the guy behind me punted me into the gravel (he was hit by the guy behind him).

Later in the race, having crawled out of the gravel and avoided faster traffic and having picked up a yellow flag stat for driving like any normal person, I caught a car on the oval section and went around the outside of him. The guy he was trying to pass then decided to drift towards the outside (I looked at it from his cockpit view - my car and the other car were clearly visible) and hit both of us, and later hit two other cars. I went into the wall and clocked up another yellow flag stat. Got back up to speed by the time T1 rolled around.

Reaching T1, some slower cars had caught up with me and one was on my inside in the braking zone. I intended to let him pass into the corner but he decided to pull out to the wall before braking - straight into my car. I spun, had no chance of making the corner, so I recorded the replay and went offline to judge all these incidents. In this one replay there were so many drivers who sucked so badly it seemed almost asinine to raise a report. I had to accept that this sort of driving was a de-facto standard on CTRA servers.

And it seems it is, on the lower tier servers.

Quote from SamH :

I suspect you enter with a pair of "this thing doesn't work" glasses on and try as you may, that's all you can see. Perhaps I'm wrong.

You are wrong. I join a busy server on the odd occasion I get a chance to do some LFS racing, and usually this is one of your servers (unless the DMR server is busy in which case I will always choose theirs over yours, but I often don't get a chance to race before 10pm and their activity dies out around then). I always connect with the best of intentions and expect the same of the cars around me, and I am routinely disappointed.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

You rarely ever share the track with anyone but the best drivers. You're in no position to comment, really.

Whilst i have to agree with you there, i still often watch a few races in-between driving and i still don't see what your describing as the norm

Quote from The Moose :

Had he actually based his comments on facts rather than a possible bad 30mins on a server then i would agree, but stating "it's not CTRA’s fault they have a wrecker problem in some servers" is sloppy journalism because it's a load of made up tosh.

Yes. of course, in your opinion, which you must have forgotten to add, simple mistake to make however.

A small note on what ive read so far in this thread.. im happy its being discussed. I have to air on the side of saying that im slightly worried about the lack of support for servers with actual admins.

CTRA has done good stuff.. for pickup racing, and will continue to develop, but will never have the ability to be "there" as an in-server administrator would.. The $admin thing.. is still having to call an admin to the server, so not really solving the issue, if there was one.

CTRA is trying to fill the boots and do the job which was in the past conducted by real live administrators, its not, and will never be a replacement in my mind, but its an almost middle ground.

Again, the R2P comparison was.. unfair to begin with, but I feel the discussion has moved on from there.

CTRA wasnt the first, isnt the whole solution and wont be the last effort to do what its trying to do. But it does give me something to do in the day time!

PS, if the manpower is low, does the GTRA not consider appealing for help?

Idle 4:15am-bloody-insomnia-thoughts

Quote from mkinnov8 :

Yes. of course, in your opinion, which you must have forgotten to add, simple mistake to make however.

I think, given that this is a public forum, it's reasonable to assume that any post you read is that poster's personal opinion unless it's accompanied by the disclaimer "This is established fact and not my personal opinion". Otherwise the forum would fill up with redundant "In my opinion" disclaimers quicker than it fills up with "I did this" userbars.

Quote from SamH :


Warnings : 404
Cautions : 287
Bans : 562
Dismissed : 711


so with 25.000 players and assuming all those repoerts are unique hits that would be ~10% of the userbase
imho that number is both too low and too high depending on which way you look at it

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Otherwise the forum would fill up with redundant "In my opinion" disclaimers quicker than it fills up with "I did this" userbars.

good thing we dont have "your mom" userbars

At the end of the day, it's up to the community to decide on how well the system works. If you fail to submit a report, which literally can be done before the next race starts, a fraction of the time we spend on each report. A typical race report should take around a minute to complete.

Once your racing is done for the night it's another simple step to log into MYCTRA and clicking submit. Total time committed on behalf of the driver, less than two minutes if done efficiently.

If two minutes of your time isn't worth cleaning up the server, then it's not worth 24hours of our time to babysit everyone, which is what you are asking. Sorry, I have done my share of babysitting, you all are not children, and we will not treat you like ones. The server is only as good as the commitment the drivers give to the process in place. If you feel that this time commitment on your side is too much, maybe the CTRA is not a place for you.

I hop on the Tier 1 servers from time to time, I fail to see any major issues with the driving.

Another note, how can an admin catch all, or even any of the wreckers? They only have two eyes and only 1 screen, so the most they could see is 1 incident at a time accurately. Then the problem arises how will that admin have their screen on every incident? Chances are there are going to be many incidents that will be unseen by the live admin, and how can they administer a kick on someone when the admin failed to see the incident in the first place?

Does the CTRA catch every incident? No we don't because people want an 'instakick' for poor behavior, and because of this they feel, like yourself, that it's not worth 2 minutes of their time. Thats not education or community spirit, thats elitism, and something that should be left in the history books and is something the CTRA is trying to avoid.

How does this driver from a live admin server know what they did wrong? Do they have a replay they can reflect on, with a description of what they did wrong? If the penalized driver is allowed on the server, what else will the admin miss when giving a rundown of what happened to the penalized driver? Because there is no proof, only the admins opinion on the incident, will that person believe them? The drivers that are genuinely trying to learn how to race will be afraid of being kicked if they did something wrong, to me something seems wrong when you have to rely on fear to keep them in the right. This is they type of server you are asking for if we kick people without question or review as a live admin does. Personally we might as well be the Gestapo then...

Sure this type of totalitarian approach will bring people in tow, but people are not really learning anything and it's defiantly not a learning environment where people would want to learn in. For an experienced driver like yourself, it's great. There is no hassle, all the drivers that you would have to tip-toe around are gone, but it's doing nothing for the community, with exception for the elitists.


I could be totally off on all this, but thats how I feel, obviously. If I didn't feel this way I wouldn't be a CTRA admin...

i do spend and have spent alot of time on ctra servers, both as a ukct driver and as an independant driver, i also race with my cousin alot on the ctra servers and have never seen any incidents like kev if decribing, i see the point about reports taking a long time to proccess but that is due at the moment to peoples circomstances, i do also agree that maybe the admins need to be a little more tough on people but not too much, live adminning as i said earlier is fraut with problems, and yes the ctra has its problems too, one of them being a delay till the concquence but at least when punishment is given it is fair and the incident was investigated fully

Whilst I haven't driven Race 1 since I got my silver licence and really can't comment, it must be said SS1 can be a bit barmy on occassion and I'm sure most of us have experienced some of the antics as described by Kev. I don't know how an admin can come on here and say they have never seen anything similar....

It seems like KY2 and WE1 (high speed flowing circuits) are the the main culprits in this regard.

Basically stick to the 2nd and 3rd tier servers and there is simply not a problem outwith the normal racing incidents and rare lapse in judgement/ability

I am slightly surprised by the low number of total reports raised outwith the entry level servers, I really thought it would have been more. Quite what this says tho, I'm not sure.

One last, quick point. It takes me about 15min to raise a report, as no matter which race I choose as the replay, it's never the one I am looking for. Then you have to analyse it yourself to make sure the events were as you pictured from inside the car. Quite how that can be done in 1 min between race IDK?

I would agree with you that it takes a bit longer than Chris' estimate to complete a report. My other point in relation to this was that often it's difficult to know who to report when half a dozen or more drivers are equally culpable. Do you report them all or just assume that's the accepted standard of driving?

Should I raise a report like this after every race? I would spend more time reporting than racing, and more than likely see no improvement on the server anyway.

I don't see the routine habitual moronic behaviour in every race from 16 drivers at a time that's being purported.

Maybe the CTRA system really is doing irrepairable damage to the general behaviour of racers in public servers as Kev says. What a sorry state of affairs indeed. Who could have predicted that, eh? The CTRA system responsible for ****ing up everybody else's servers. Perhaps we should just concede it was a nice idea but it didn't work the way we wanted, hang up our gloves and walk away.

Quote from SamH :

I don't see the routine habitual moronic behaviour in every race from 16 drivers at a time that's being purported.

Maybe the CTRA system really is doing irrepairable damage to the general behaviour of racers in public servers as Kev says. What a sorry state of affairs indeed. Who could have predicted that, eh? The CTRA system responsible for ****ing up everybody else's servers. Perhaps we should just concede it was a nice idea but it didn't work the way we wanted, hang up our gloves and walk away.

Easy tiger I think I could speak for 99% of the CTRA users when I say "keep up the good work "

It's a massive undertaking, we appreciate that, and appreciate the efforts of all the admin staff.

Doesn't negate the fact that sh!t happens, and theres nowt ye kin dae aboot it

Still my favourite batch of servers

[edit] I posted this before I read your last post, HV..

Wait, I've had another idea. I'm mentally consigning this utter pile of complete bollocks to the bin. If you don't like what we do, then **** off and don't bother coming back. If it sucks, what the **** are you doing there anyway?

I was mentally and emotionally drained by the bitch they call my ex wife for 5 years, and I'll be buggered if I'm gonna let some gripey minority neysayers on a forum do me over like she did. Get with the programme - the WHOLE programme - or GTF out and stay out. Thank christ for the cold light of day.. don't like it? Don't do it!

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I would agree with you that it takes a bit longer than Chris' estimate to complete a report. My other point in relation to this was that often it's difficult to know who to report when half a dozen or more drivers are equally culpable. Do you report them all or just assume that's the accepted standard of driving?

Should I raise a report like this after every race? I would spend more time reporting than racing, and more than likely see no improvement on the server anyway.

kev ok there may be many people you could reprt but just report one , ok its not ideal but it helps and then when the admins look at the report they wil see the others.

and hvs5b if you were saying about me in the first section, im not an admin

Quote from SamH :

[edit] I posted this before I read your last post, HV..

Wait, I've had another idea. I'm mentally consigning this utter pile of complete bollocks to the bin. If you don't like what we do, then **** off and don't bother coming back. If it sucks, what the **** are you doing there anyway?

I was mentally and emotionally drained by the bitch they call my ex wife for 5 years, and I'll be buggered if I'm gonna let some gripey minority neysayers on a forum do me over like she did. Get with the programme - the WHOLE programme - or GTF out and stay out. Thank christ for the cold light of day.. don't like it? Don't do it!

chin up sam there are many more people that appreciate the system than dont

Quote from Flyinsi :

sounds like he's on the payroll to me.

It's more simple: Magnus has a very detailed expectation of how sim racing should be - actually about as close to real life racing as could be.

If some environment does provide more "realism" in this particular aspect, other environments will be either "outdated" or "on the wrong way" - they'll simply lack what he's looking for. And as he's the one with full insight in what simracing has to be about, those other environments will be turned down in his ASS pamphlets

Welcome to the club

Right now he's simply the prophet of "pay for race" environments, as only these will ever be able to provide what he's looking for. iRacing should try to hire him ASAP for public relations....

Quote from cholerix :

It's more simple: Magnus has a very detailed expectation of how sim racing should be - actually about as close to real life racing as could be.

Racing rFactor? Puhleeze!

Quote from james12s :

kev ok there may be many people you could reprt but just report one , ok its not ideal but it helps and then when the admins look at the report they wil see the others.

and hvs5b if you were saying about me in the first section, im not an admin

No, Kev shouldn't report anyone if he can't be arsed to. And while he's busy not reporting them, he can accept that if he'd reported the same twerp that did the same thing to him on the same day the previous week, maybe it wouldn't have happened to him this time.. and then he can self-perpetuate his own misery, and ensure someone else's in the future, by racing his continued self-righteous non-reporting into the next corner while taking advange of sweet FA of the procedures in place to deal with such things.

Not just Kev, anyone with that mindset. The CTRA operates best when the racers are FULLY involved in what goes on in there.. less of the "can't be arsed" and the "not my job" lot. The CTRA was intended to be a long-term project, and it isn't helped by short-term thinkers.

Sometimes you sap the very will to live, Kev. Still love ya tho.

i see where your coming from, in my eyes everyone on the server has a sorta admin role in that they should report rule breaking.

and i bet kev still loves you like we all do lol

Quote from SamH :

...

The only utter pile of bollocks that should be binned is this post of yours. No need to blow up on a bit of criticism.

Quote from SamH :

[edit] I posted this before I read your last post, HV..

Wait, I've had another idea. I'm mentally consigning this utter pile of complete bollocks to the bin. If you don't like what we do, then **** off and don't bother coming back. If it sucks, what the **** are you doing there anyway?

I was mentally and emotionally drained by the bitch they call my ex wife for 5 years, and I'll be buggered if I'm gonna let some gripey minority neysayers on a forum do me over like she did. Get with the programme - the WHOLE programme - or GTF out and stay out. Thank christ for the cold light of day.. don't like it? Don't do it!

LOL interesting comparison =)