Charming.
Charming.
Considering that CTRA is completely and totally free I think its fantastic. True, there are a few numpties who really cannot drive, but you're going to get that wherever you go (and on whatever game you drive on). Race 1 is not full of wreckers, no. I've never ever seen a deliberate wrecker there. There are some people whose driving needs improving, but they're not going round crashing everyone. And when they're reported and cautioned or whatever, hopefully they will see their faults and improve their driving both on CTRA and elsewhere.
The CTRA admins do a great job, and with the CTRA system, LFS is a much much better sim. Keep up the good work guys.
The CTRA admins do a great job, and with the CTRA system, LFS is a much much better sim. Keep up the good work guys.
woops a daisy - my mistake
I've yet to find a server on the list that isn't free.
Anyway, I still think my criticism is valid, I don't think driving standards on CTRA servers are any better than any other race servers I've driven on. I won't go as far as to say they're worse, but I do think the points system encourages over-zealous driving and leads to more accidents.
The admins disagree, it's all talked out, so I'll leave it at that.
It's where I'm at. I'll get over it, like I always do. 
in a way it would be better if it was... then youd at least be prepared for them turning into you any second
Ah, fair point yes
And probably never will, but thats your call, others will be different, (in the same tone as some of the later text you wrote below) "deal with it."
Er, ok then. Note that no one other than yourself sam mentioned that. It sounds like the usual "people dont agree or see it one way so ill just take my ball home" to me. Firstly, these servers are your own, just like any other server owner, you can run your servers however you wish, you know that. You also know you dont have to justify anything to anyone that you dont want to. The line "thats just the way it is" is sometimes helpful in these situations
The point about the above statement that sticks with me is this:
Erm, LOL! If you really think this, then perhaps it is time to take some time off from ctra, perhaps try some other servers.. non ctra servers, expect nothing and see what other people are doing with LFS, without all this extra coding and buttons. I dont believe it should be thought that ctra would be responsible for "****ing up" other peoples servers, I dont believe it should be given that weight outside of its own servers.
To me, its just like any other 3rd party app.. LFS Lapper, LFS Buddy, damnit, ive the cruise servers, they all do a job and add some extra functionality into LFS.
Yeh.. Dont. Its worth thinking about im afraid. Yes, there are many who enjoy ctra servers (me included), but it does have its faults.. show me something that doesnt? Its not bollocks, the thread evolved into something which people felt needed to be said..
Im really guessing you dont mean that, and in the cold light of day, if you read that statement made by someone else about the ctra, you wouldnt like it. As said above, your servers, on which you can and will do whatever you like, with the same rights as any other server administrator, but, you wouldnt be that damn right rude to your potential users. I dont believe you have that in you.
Ive cut some of that out because I fail to find the connection, this is no and has never been personal Sam, as you said yourself earlier.
Occationally, these group of gripy members have something to say, and eventually, minorities are listened to.
Please take a moment to read the thread you're posting in.
I'm not bothering to address the rest. It was a late night and an early morning and I'm out of the habit of those.
[edit] Stoney, I still read much worse than I intend. Sorry. I'm gonna bugger off myself and go take some nice pictures, have a pint in a beer garden and come back to deal with the outstanding CTRA reports. This lone-ranger business is just a lousy habit of mine. The CTRA is what the CTRA is and I do still believe in it. That's all that matters to me.
Yep, considering having to click several times on the page to quote, copy paste etc, im fairly sure I did so, otherwise your point has flown over my dumb head.
^^ posted before seeing your above edit.
Sounds good to me.. can I come?!
I'm saying that, contrary to Kev's implicit suggestions, I don't believe that the CTRA does any harm whatsoever to the standard of driving in any other server, and that if it's done anything it's probably introduced certain aspects of racing etiquette to the conscience of a lot more people than not.
Beer time.
Beer time.
What Kev posted in that regard is obviously misguided, since it asserts that the default driving behaviour is better than CTRA server behaviour, which it is not.
It may be true that the driver behaviour in CTRA might become the benchmark of "acceptable" behaviour everywhere (CTRA is pretty much the most popular system out there, so take that as a compliment
), and this "acceptable" behaviour might not be good enough on average for Kev or in general, but it's still a far better behaviour than one that would develop on completely unregulated servers. It might not be perfect and not up to Kev's standards, but it's not dragging the LFS average down.However it's also to be considered that CTRA mainly works passively, by providing dumpster servers (the entry level ones) where pretty much every muppet can drive, and only the good drivers that gain license levels and race on a different server can really benefit of a better driving standard. Then again, that also raises the problem that there's no way to race the entry level cars with a better-than-public standard.
Whatever, beer is a good idea in any case
After reading this (somehow depressive, except for the beer part) thread, I come with a suggestion (unrealstic, complicated and not perfectly shaped but I'm supposed to be working just now).
Entry level servers *could* require some kind of benchmark to enter.
Would it be possible for the entry server to request a hotlap @107% WR on LFSW for a series of combos before competing?
That would force people to at least know where the track goes when they start the race, and that would ensure they have a basic knowledge of car handling to meet the benchmark...It would also mean a bit more efforts to get in, don't know if it is + or -.
Of course it would not be sufficient to ensure racecraft, but it would probably discourage or eliminate wreckers from the equation.
It may have been suggested earlier when the userbase was too scarce to request an entry test, but Race1 seems pretty much full these days (at the time of the day when I can check it).
Any comments?
Entry level servers *could* require some kind of benchmark to enter.
Would it be possible for the entry server to request a hotlap @107% WR on LFSW for a series of combos before competing?
That would force people to at least know where the track goes when they start the race, and that would ensure they have a basic knowledge of car handling to meet the benchmark...It would also mean a bit more efforts to get in, don't know if it is + or -.
Of course it would not be sufficient to ensure racecraft, but it would probably discourage or eliminate wreckers from the equation.
It may have been suggested earlier when the userbase was too scarce to request an entry test, but Race1 seems pretty much full these days (at the time of the day when I can check it).
Any comments?
Nice idea overall, but it doesnt take into account that there are some seriously fast dickheads out there.
I'd like you to quote me...
Stupid is blaming the server for low driving standards. Let's have a history recap:
Low driving standards existed in online racing right from the beginning, some people dont take it seriously. LFS tried to counter this by having a fixed account name, a huge step which gave the LFS user base the means to block bad apples.
This resulted in LFS becoming the defacto sim for pickup racing. Other sims still have a market for league racing but really if you played pickup racing on a sim without a fixed [and bannable] licence name then you know what i'm talking about. Not taking the chicane at Monza and wrecking is absolutely routine in GTR2. When I say routine, I meen it's absolutely 9 'till 5 routine - every race, and no recompense for the wreckers, which is around 30-60% of entries in any given pickup race.
So forgetting league racing for the moment, in pickup racing LFS was the defacto standard sim. But "wrecking" was a problem, so along came the wrecker barricade.
Now I was an active sim racer at this point, and whilst the wrecker barricade was good it had a few shortcomings. I was sick to death of people rejoining into traffic after crashing - this was so prevelent that often people didnt even know what they where doing was wrong, sick to death by the quantity of crashes - every lap i'd be passing strewn cars somewhere - and I was absolutely fed up of giving way in overtaking battles because people didnt know who had right of way.
I was running a public server by this point, the STCC League Practice server, and after giving bans for 90 days for anyone rejoining into traffic word started to get around this wasnt acceptable any more... Though some argued...
It still wasnt enough though, sim racers where still absolutely useless when public racing, and there where epidemic problems with attitude from a userbase consisting not just of racers, but casual gamers.
This is when I started work on the STCC tiered public server system. The purpose of which was to give the better drivers a place to race whilst the general hubbub of public racers would be stuck on the entry server and I could forget about them...
The STCC server system included a licence notes section and the ability to give warnings via RCM all in a nice neat interface for the admins. It was a huge step forward in sorting out public racing standards, which where at the time of launch still diabolical.
I'm glad to say that rejoining into traffic is mostly a thing of the past, and overall racing standards have improved and I believe, personally, that the STCC public servers where a huge factor in making that happen, because the wrecker barricade and live admins hadn't fixed it until that point.
The development of the reporting system in X-System was something I delivered after review of how better to improve the old STCC system. Fundamentally it treats each report as a unique object rather than each driver, a change of conceptual approach, which has made the whole issue of reporting a much more interactive affair and provides greater feedback for all parties involved.
When I first unveiled it to Sam he was both excited and scared of the workload i'd just given him, and to his credit even when I was in the CTRA I barely helped out at all with the reports, I just couldnt be arsed.
The reporting system itself hasnt fixed driver issues, but in combination with the clearly visible rules I think X-System has made drivers much more aware of overlap regulations and generally improved driving standards globally in pickup racing, it's established that mid race joiners are 'practicers', and told even casual racers how many blocking moves they may make.
Clearly there is always another way to do things and some other way may be better, but live admins definately isnt it - especially not in a 24 hour free operation - you can pay for services like R2P to run your league racing, but you can get free league racing with live admins anyway - this is about casual pickup racing...
Now you have to decide, should the system cater to absolute beginners and welcome everyone? Or should the system say casual gamers can go to hell.
If the CTRA wants to set itself above the rest and continue it's mission to provide serious racers a place where they can get serious racing on a casual basis, and they want to do this at the 1st tier - simple, just insist on new drivers having a minimum online mileage and win ratio etc.
Or they can provide a place for those who havnt done the mileage to race and give a place for muppets and idiots to race, on the same systems as the pro's - in order to proove they have the mettle to race with the good guys. These servers where called "Race 1" and "Single Seater 1".
Now whilst the majority of racing may be done on the muppet servers which where created purely for the purpose of dealing with the numbers/mass populace, then that's great - it means most of the idiots are filtered into a place where they can be avoided by the pro's.
The fact that many pro's are happy to race on the muppet servers shows that actually they aren't that bad a place to race on the whole.
However yes, it's also true that many people playing online for the first time, many people with less experience, will be racing for the first time on Race 1 / Single Seater 1.
I note with some concern in this thread that the CTRA is being more lax toward reports on the lower server, I dont agree with this myself and that was never the mission. Lax on first offence but high standards on all servers was always the original goal - giving the chance to educate first, then getting the sledgehammer out.
Yes Race 1 / Single Seater 1 are non-qualified public servers. But i've raced Redline and Conedodgers (the other popular servers when I was driving), so dont try to convince me that the CTRA is any worse. Sometimes those servers had live admins too, I can count almost as many badly applied bans as well applied - but in all cases, no right of appeal, no justification - and absolutely NO DRIVER EDUCATION. How does that help? It doesnt, it just moves the problem on.
Zero tolerance is fine for speed hackers and wreckers, they wont learn, but for those racing incidents, those overlap misjudgements, those lesser rules where totalitarian actions dont help - where review of the replay is needed. Show me how a live admin does that for a 32 car field?
I have very few problems on Race#1!
I go there when the other servers are empty and most of the time I get clean fair racing.
Occasionally you run into a jerk but that happens everywhere.
I know I don't speak only for myself when I say that I have had some of the best and most fun races on Race#1.
It's nice to go and share sets with new drivers and get great sets from guys and gals that drive there all the time. This past weekend I went from the DMR server almost directly to Race#1 and the racing was just as fun. Only thing missing was everyone being on ventrillo.
I have the reporting function down to an art now. I can get a report sent to CTRA in no time and be in the next race. You don't have to do anything when your in the server hardly. Just get it sent and then edit it later at CTRA.
Easy peasy
Oh I almost forgot, Kev what time of day are you usually race on Race#1?
I'll make sure to come punt you off
I go there when the other servers are empty and most of the time I get clean fair racing.
Occasionally you run into a jerk but that happens everywhere.
I know I don't speak only for myself when I say that I have had some of the best and most fun races on Race#1.
It's nice to go and share sets with new drivers and get great sets from guys and gals that drive there all the time. This past weekend I went from the DMR server almost directly to Race#1 and the racing was just as fun. Only thing missing was everyone being on ventrillo.
I have the reporting function down to an art now. I can get a report sent to CTRA in no time and be in the next race. You don't have to do anything when your in the server hardly. Just get it sent and then edit it later at CTRA.
Easy peasy
Oh I almost forgot, Kev what time of day are you usually race on Race#1?
I'll make sure to come punt you off
I've yet to find a server on the list that gives you as much out-of race information and support as CTRA, nor one that has such a comprehensive reporting system
I doubt you will find one either, its not the server thats giving up the information, its the insim addon which isnt standard on every server, thankfully.
Guilty as charged
I'm an absolute newbie who races on CTRA SS1, and I crash a lot. I do, however, at least run a few laps offline to familiarize myself with the course; and I do my best to stay out of everyone's way.
Ideally, I would do all of my learning offline, but the multi-player experience is much more entertaining, and I enjoy the chat.
Right now, I'm almost invisible to the other drivers because I'm so slow and I keep an eye out for the blue flags. The problems going to come when I'm fast enough to keep up with the pack, and I bet it's drivers at that level that are causing the most frustration. I don't see it as avoidable, and the level 1 servers seem the ideal place for people to learn how to drive with others around them. If there's a better server for someone like me, let me know.
Ideally, I would do all of my learning offline, but the multi-player experience is much more entertaining, and I enjoy the chat.
Right now, I'm almost invisible to the other drivers because I'm so slow and I keep an eye out for the blue flags. The problems going to come when I'm fast enough to keep up with the pack, and I bet it's drivers at that level that are causing the most frustration. I don't see it as avoidable, and the level 1 servers seem the ideal place for people to learn how to drive with others around them. If there's a better server for someone like me, let me know.
The CTRA tier-1 servers are quite good for the beginner
They do become very busy though, and tracks like SO3 are mayhem with a full grid, with little margin for error while getting lapped etc. There are plenty of beginner friendly servers. In fact, I don't think there are that many racing servers that require you to not be a beginner. As said, DMR is a great server with great people.The general rule I had when I was a beginner (I'm still a noob though
) was: practice driving the car. Learning the track beforehand is not all that important, you can always spec one race and join at the back of the grid for a few more to familiarise. No amount of track knowledge is going to save you though, if you can't keep your vehicle pointed in the right direction on a straight.id like to think you have enough sense of humour to understand the motivation behind that formulation
well it worked beautifully then
the problem then is that slow but fair drivers (eg kev) cant be arsed to suffer through the longish (thanks to being slow) time it takes to get to the higher tiers
it might have but i get the feel people prefer to ignore the rules and get away with it for the most part
might work but a lot of drivers id trust blindly to know where they have to place their cars have low win ratios and one particular driver with a very high win ratio that id ban on sight if i had admin rights comes to mind as well... not very reliable
as pointed out earlier every protential pro will have to go through the "monkeys at the back" which leaves us mostly with 3 outcomes
1) hes fast enough to get to a silver licence within a few hours and wont mind much
2) hes new and gets conditioned into thinking that the behaviour on tier 1 is acceptable
3) hes experienced but slow(ish) and uses servers that attract the long standing core community (eg dsrc) and will get fed up with the standard of driving quickly and leave again
and i think 2 of these are a problem one of these a potentially major one
from my experience they arent if youre among the top 4 on the grid... anything lower than that and the enjoyment quickly drops to 0
i absolutely agree... and i think that if available there should be an admin present as often as humanly possible to speed the process up a little and make the sledgehammering much more immediate
we all know how redline operates and i cant say that i have ever raced on cd but its probably too popular
surely you must have raced on one of the smaller servers that attracts core community members or other more experienced drivers (eg odd compo and any server that doesnt offer instant gratification with cars any muppet can keep on track) at some point so you must know the difference and what i (and seemingly kev) consider a server with well behaved drivers
of course ther is no one who could do that
but specing one driver per race and putting him on the naughty stool (eg through preventing him from joining the race but not necessarily kicking or banning him) if he doesnt behave is easily possible and will get the message across much more quickly than the current system
You're talking about core forum members - the ones with slide guitars, singing about how good the old S1 days were. The CTRA doesn't cater for them. The CTRA is about online racing, where the genuine, current, core LFSers are. The core racing community. Steering the CTRA according to the wishes of people who do LFS mostly via the "Post Reply" button and who don't race much or at all would be silly. We stopped doing that long ago, and we're better off for it.
If you file the report from in the game you want to choose the current race to get the right replay. An yes, I too like to review the replays before sending them in, and quite often realise it was just a racing incident and don't file one when I do. But still, it doesn;t take all that long.
As far as who to report, if you're not sure, just pick whoever you are sure is guilty of something. The CTRA admins do a lot more then just review the reported incident when thye get a report. If they see other drivers violating CTRA rules they can open a new report and take action on that.
I tried a few races on race 1 yesterday.
Starting from the back of the grid, BLGP - T1 was not fast but no issue, go slowly through 2-3 cars taken out at the chicane, not bad for a grid of approx 20.
Overall good races, a few contacts due to awareness issues but nothing to end a race (apart from my own contact with a stack of tyres, that turned the car upside down :yel:
Overall very good races, more aggressive than DMR servers for example but is that necessary a bad thing? People fight harder on CTRA to be in the points, and try to win.
NAI- You are way too fast even with the XF. Add ballast
Starting from the back of the grid, BLGP - T1 was not fast but no issue, go slowly through 2-3 cars taken out at the chicane, not bad for a grid of approx 20.
Overall good races, a few contacts due to awareness issues but nothing to end a race (apart from my own contact with a stack of tyres, that turned the car upside down :yel:
Overall very good races, more aggressive than DMR servers for example but is that necessary a bad thing? People fight harder on CTRA to be in the points, and try to win.
NAI- You are way too fast even with the XF. Add ballast
Agreed
Yep, we had some great races last night.
I even had some podiums - not bad at all on a full server
Of all my 127 races in CTRA I've caused 2 accidents (tailgating under braking) that would meet the definition of wrecking, and been a victim once (well, twice but it was the same driver in the same race). At least my experience doesn't equal the ARSE article...
The general additude on the low level servers isn't as good as it could be, but that's something the system can't improve, only way to improve the general additude is to make those reports!
And bottomline - I think that CTRA has done good job in introducing racing etiquette for the masses. Clean Racers Club did it for me in 2005 (thanks stoney&co!), but CTRA touches thousands of casual gamers.
The general additude on the low level servers isn't as good as it could be, but that's something the system can't improve, only way to improve the general additude is to make those reports!
And bottomline - I think that CTRA has done good job in introducing racing etiquette for the masses. Clean Racers Club did it for me in 2005 (thanks stoney&co!), but CTRA touches thousands of casual gamers.
ASS article on wreckers
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FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG