so you think the racing etiquette the current ctra tier1 crowd is a more desireable standard than the one youll find on servers full of drivers that have been around since s1 and show mutual respect?
Is that directed to me?
Nah I think he's saying that newbie drivers are online more often, so the server is tailored to them. Fair point, and nothing to do with driving standards.
yup
how so? the entire thread is about driving standards and i dont see how one would tailor a server for new drivers in any other wayn than being more lenient towards their lack of knowledge and in far too many cases appreciation for racing etiquette
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I don't think the bad habbits have anything to do with respect. It is just that people don't know that merging into traffic is bad, or racing with people who are lapping you is bad or people who dive in late or bump&nudge a lot. They just do it from the 1st race and then learn the pattern. I'm unsure whether it is a "casual gamer" problem or what that people don't know the rules. Maybe everyone needs to be told personally whenever they make a mistake and explain it why it was wrong and what they should have done... which is huge workload...
No, the whole thread is supposed to be about comparing a structured league environment with a public racing system, resulting in a the claim of a wrecker problem on CTRA. Since then it's gone off at a tangent.
Do you really think that's what I'm suggesting?
Let's assume for a moment that this is what you think I'm suggesting. Please give me the name of this server that's supposedly full of drivers that are experienced and have been around since S1, so that I can fully appreciate the implications of the suggestion that I'm making.
SS3?
but thats exactly it you either drive with respect for the guys around you which automatically leads to you not doing any of the things you listed or you only care for your own race and about winning which means that divebombing pushing drivers out of the way and rejoining without looking out for traffic are just fine to you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ctt23hidKQ
which took us less than half a page so it is about driving standards now
no but you havent qualified what not catering to forum members and catering to the great unwashed of lfs instead is supposed to mean
so it was a challenge to get you to specify what thats supposed to mean
also so far in my experience the most glaring difference between the majority of forum members ive raced with (becky you kev ajp fel etc) and the crowd on the tier1 ctra servers is that i can trust the forum guys blindly to not do anything stupid whereas its almost the exact opposite with the tier1 crowd
i cant and as lfsw will show you with my thesis due in a month i havent had much time to drive in the last months so im out of the loop when it comes to finding good servers (although i suppose that finding a populated lfr or lx server is still a fairly good indicator that youll find a bunch of likeminded drivers)
but im sure you know what im on about and what kind of server im talking about because weve raced each other on one or two of them at some point
Not sure why this discussion is happening still.
Shotglass you said yourself the problem is mainly on the 1st tier servers through the fact that many of the Tier2+ drivers are drivers that have been around a while. These servers are going to have learning curves by people racing on them.
There is a reason why they are on tier1, and it's most usually not because they like the cars. It's because they are lacking in some critical racing skills that would enable them to earn the points to be lifted into Tier2. If feel that if you think that these drivers can, and should have the capacity, to be trusted in every racing situation there needs to be a rethink on that strategy.
I have seem some races in club racing and, on the whole, I don't see anything that much different in terms of mistakes between tier1 and the lowest level of club racing/gokarts. Infact I could probably go through u-tube and karting incidents where the whole field was taken out in T1 by a noob...
What I am trying to convey is that when racing on T1 there are many risky and dangerous moves that cannot be sucessfully completed because the people these moves are being put on will not understand the risks involved with these maneuvers. Currently the only way to see these incidents is to physically be involved in them and see the outcome. On the whole the drivers I have seen on Tier1 are trying their damn hardest to stay out of people's way and avoid incidents.
Tell me, did you crawl or walked before you started running? It takes time to develop complex racing skills and this has to be taken into consideration when running on T1, it's a beginner's server.
Shotglass you said yourself the problem is mainly on the 1st tier servers through the fact that many of the Tier2+ drivers are drivers that have been around a while. These servers are going to have learning curves by people racing on them.
There is a reason why they are on tier1, and it's most usually not because they like the cars. It's because they are lacking in some critical racing skills that would enable them to earn the points to be lifted into Tier2. If feel that if you think that these drivers can, and should have the capacity, to be trusted in every racing situation there needs to be a rethink on that strategy.
I have seem some races in club racing and, on the whole, I don't see anything that much different in terms of mistakes between tier1 and the lowest level of club racing/gokarts. Infact I could probably go through u-tube and karting incidents where the whole field was taken out in T1 by a noob...
What I am trying to convey is that when racing on T1 there are many risky and dangerous moves that cannot be sucessfully completed because the people these moves are being put on will not understand the risks involved with these maneuvers. Currently the only way to see these incidents is to physically be involved in them and see the outcome. On the whole the drivers I have seen on Tier1 are trying their damn hardest to stay out of people's way and avoid incidents.
Tell me, did you crawl or walked before you started running? It takes time to develop complex racing skills and this has to be taken into consideration when running on T1, it's a beginner's server.
Kev was able to grasp my meaning, so I know the problem isn't necessarily my complete inability to communicate.
I understand what you are saying, yes. I just don't agree with you. My point is that the CTRA is a public racing environment.
Find a server that comprises healthily experienced racers that ALL drive with the respect due each other, whether from the S1 days or not, and what you are looking at is effectively a LEAGUE server, not an average public server - even if it's open to the public. You won't FIND a full server with that content anywhere else but in league racing.
Yes, you and I have raced together on servers where everybody drives in such a manner, but you will also remember that the server barely had ANY population besides us, and that a few idiots still joined, crashed a few times and left while we were spared their indiscretions - but that was good fortune, not design.
The CTRA is not the perfect racing environment, and if I've given anyone the impression that I think it is then I humbly apologise. Race 1 and Single Seater 1 are scoops. They provide more than the un-InSim'd pickup server offers in terms of structure. Yes, I know Kev hates the points system, but it's popular and it's a means to an end. CTRA also has automatic race restarts, which is better than an hour-old list of some race or other and some thick black T1 donuts, and it helps to keep up the interest of people racing on LFS. I think most people enjoy it for the fact that they know for a fact that a race WILL be starting soon after the last one ends.
I think you should accept that even the road to F1 starts with a bunch of knackered rental karts, and that even the Empire State Building has a ground floor. Regard us as the doorman, or the elevator guy. If it helps, picture us with those silly hats with the elastic chin-band.. but kindly cut us some slack, cos we're doing what we can because we believe it's a good thing overall.
I understand what you are saying, yes. I just don't agree with you. My point is that the CTRA is a public racing environment.
Find a server that comprises healthily experienced racers that ALL drive with the respect due each other, whether from the S1 days or not, and what you are looking at is effectively a LEAGUE server, not an average public server - even if it's open to the public. You won't FIND a full server with that content anywhere else but in league racing.
Yes, you and I have raced together on servers where everybody drives in such a manner, but you will also remember that the server barely had ANY population besides us, and that a few idiots still joined, crashed a few times and left while we were spared their indiscretions - but that was good fortune, not design.
The CTRA is not the perfect racing environment, and if I've given anyone the impression that I think it is then I humbly apologise. Race 1 and Single Seater 1 are scoops. They provide more than the un-InSim'd pickup server offers in terms of structure. Yes, I know Kev hates the points system, but it's popular and it's a means to an end. CTRA also has automatic race restarts, which is better than an hour-old list of some race or other and some thick black T1 donuts, and it helps to keep up the interest of people racing on LFS. I think most people enjoy it for the fact that they know for a fact that a race WILL be starting soon after the last one ends.
I think you should accept that even the road to F1 starts with a bunch of knackered rental karts, and that even the Empire State Building has a ground floor. Regard us as the doorman, or the elevator guy. If it helps, picture us with those silly hats with the elastic chin-band.. but kindly cut us some slack, cos we're doing what we can because we believe it's a good thing overall.
But this is exactly what race 1 is for! Learning the race craft. I was from day one a respectful driver on CTRA Race 1. But I still plowed into turn one a few times because I didn't have the car control or the racing knowledge to back it up.
Most of the drivers there also show that respect if their mistakes are pointed out to them. Instead of calling them a Noob people should be giving advice.
Or if its really bad do a report them.
but thats exactly it you either {type} with respect for the guys {reading} you{r words} which automatically leads to you {using punctuation} or you only care for your own {opinions} which means {using long, rambling, unreadable run-on sentences.}
[quote=Shotglass;805447]but thats exactly it you either drive with respect for the guys around you which automatically leads to you not doing any of the things you listed or you only care for your own race and about winning which means that divebombing pushing drivers out of the way and rejoining without looking out for traffic are just fine to you
[quote=Shotglass;805447]but thats exactly it you either drive with respect for the guys around you which automatically leads to you not doing any of the things you listed or you only care for your own race and about winning which means that divebombing pushing drivers out of the way and rejoining without looking out for traffic are just fine to you
i understand that expecting them to drive flawlessly would be far far over the top and neither would i expect that of any of the guys i mentioned
but while i see that a tier1 driver isnt required to have the ability to be trusted blindly he should at least try to not drive in a way that you have to expect him crashing into your car or turn from speeding car to mobile chicane any second
and we all know how the forum thinks about karters and their impressive balls collections
bit too long ago to remember but a while ago my mom told me that i was rather old when i first started talking... but unlike most kids i talked in complete sentences right away
point is im a bit of a perfectionist and approach racing in a very similar way
when i start up the server browser and find a combo that sounds interesting but is one ive never practiced on ill usually go back to single player and practice till im up to speed... the result is usually that by the time im reasonably competitive and able to string a couple of laps together without crashing its 3 days later and the combo has become unpopular which is one of the reasons for my low online mileage
i just dont get the feeling that many tier1 drivers apply the same standards for their ability not to drive like a muppet to themself as i do to myself
thats not what i wanted to say... you coomunicated very clearly but both you and kev didnt put any substance into what a newbie server should be
if new drivers are the target audience then i dont think opening a server that was created with the intention to concentrate all of lfs' muppets in one server (and becky should know the whole system is her idea) then i dont think the server does a very good job at catering to rookies
believe me i know that but from my experience driving with you i imagine youd like to see such servers as much as i do and i dont think that the ctra tier1 servers do a very good job at educating new drivers to become regulars at such an imaginary ideal server
the problem i see is in the number of reports both raised and dealt with... the relatively large number of dismissed reports seems to indicate that the lax treatment for first time offenders often conists of doing nothing and the sledgehammer will rarely come out at all
in turn this also doesnt give much confidence that theres a point in raising a report... as kev said you cant really report 10 people per race and if the reports a dealt with too lax theres no reason to go though the hassle of reporting at all
Had a race on the bottom-tier XFG/XRG server tonight and it wasn't nearly as bad as the FBM server, despite running FE rally-x green. First couple of turns were typically newbie but after that the only real issue was mid-race joins into traffic. The slower drivers did a generally good job of letting the leaders through, too.
Maybe the single-seaters just attract a different sort of driver, but I haven't managed to have a clean race on there at all.
Maybe the single-seaters just attract a different sort of driver, but I haven't managed to have a clean race on there at all.
Kev, as an aside: Where do you think I see the most reports for stupid stuff?
Tier 1 drivers are not seasoned, experienced racers like you and I. They think they have a really good and solid ability to drive, and that everyone around them is made up of nob-cheese. That's fairly normal. The process we follow is intended (forget for a moment whether it works or not) to coax newer drivers into understanding the responsibilities they bear when racing with other drivers, by first advising them of their error (unless, as happens occasionally, they're obviously there just to wreck or whatever) and giving them an opportunity to turn it around.
Todd actually describes the classic new LFS driver in describing his own beginnings. In our experience, so very few drivers intentionally demonstrate a disregard for other racers.. they race mostly in blissful ignorance. We just chose not to write them off, because we found out very early on, back in the STCC server days that if you give them the information they need, they'll use it to get better. They just need to realise that they do NEED to get better. You often don't know what you don't know.
Of course it doesn't take, for some. In our experience this is generally so with RL karters (not exclusively, but classically). You can't tell them anything about tintop racing because they think they're the bees gonads, cuz they scrape their asses around a RC car track, sitting over a steel bar with wheels at either end when they're not in LFS. I won't name names, and I don't know if you'd be surprised or not, how many of them have absolutely no ability to fathom why they're permanently banned from CTRA servers. Last one I heard was that it's because we know they're better than us at racing and we're jealous.
You're talking about a logistical impossibility. The tier 1 servers that we provide are open to anyone that wishes to race on them, provided they keep to the rules we set. As I explained before, we try to educate first and legislate where needed. We cannot, and do not presume to, be the only place for newcomers to race. We provide what we provide because we believe it's good for LFS. Rightly or wrongly, we believe that. CTRA is optional.
This is what the 2nd tier and 3rd tier are about. Tier 1 isn't about creating a utopia in tier 1, it's about creating a utopia in tier 2 and tier 3. Of course we'll never perfect that either, but I think we've done a bloody good job of making sure that the higher tiers are where some damn good racing happens.
You're taking numbers and trying to crunch them without enough information to take measurements. We dismiss reports either where the cause of an accident is lag, or where the fault cannot be fairly apportioned between the person reporting and the person they are reporting, or where the person filing the report has picked the wrong replay, had the report returned to them only to have them resubmit the report without making changes - i.e. we can't find what the hell they're talking about in the replay. Lastly but not least, we will dismiss reports if they are duplicates of other peoples' reports - i.e. two people witnessing and reporting the same incident. At a rough estimate, I would say about 30% of all dismissed reports are dismissed for this reason, and these days we ensure that they are dismissed with a direct reference made in the response to the report that was actioned. IF we can find evidence to substantiate a report's content, we will issue a warning at minimum. We never dismiss a report because we are lax about our rules, ever.
The "why should I bother raising reports, it's so much hassle and it gives me a headache, and you'll probably dismiss it anyway so what's the point and by the way the racing in your servers are crap, I thought you should know and I don't know why I bother ever going in there" conversations are exhausting and exhaustive. I don't wanna do them any more. I feel all talked out, tbh. So feel free to talk amongst yourselves, but I'm fried.
ASS article on wreckers
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FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG