You don't want sidewall flex (well not as much as any high profile road tire will give you anyway) so unless your on an exceptionally bumpy piece of road the one place a low profile tire will actually be of use is in corners.
What possible logic do you use to get to that conclusion? Despite being on road legal tires that 962 is still a high downforce racing car underneath, it will 'take' corners far better than a lot of low downforce cars with very sticky slicks that don't do 402km/h.
The logic is that low profile tires that you can buy at shops arn't the same as real racing tires, the side walls are to short to provide enough flex. If you look at real racing tires that fit in the "low profile" catagory, they flex more than ones you can buy from a shop and arn't as short either. And the only logical example I could give is formula 1 tires, which are stiff, but not as stiff as one might think. They curtainly don't flex like a truck tire, but they arn't rock solid.
Sidewall flex plays a very big part in the traction of a tire during cornering, and if you buy these "high performance" low profile tires at a store, they are not going to flex enough.
Simple example, my boss has a VW golf MkII 2L stock with 205/60 R15 wheels. His buddy has the EXACT same car exept for a turbo and low profile "high performance" tires.
In a straight line the car with the turbo totaly destroys the other car, but in the corners the car with the turbo can't keep up, it just can't take the corners because the tires loose traction quicker.
I think we've had a bit of a miss understanding of what I mean by low profile, I'm talking these tires that people put on 18-20 inch rims that have 2 inches of sidewall or less.
Whilst some of the arguments you've heard and are regurgitating are valid you're still spouting nonsense.
Of course tire compounds and tread patterns are also very important and a low profile tire designed to look good and be reasonably sporty but also last, provide relatively low resistance and be safe in wet weather will never touch a standard profile soft semi-slick like the one you've posted.
As for the Golfs are you being serious? We're talking old cars even if they are otherwise standard (although the a different engine will make a huge difference to driver perception and confidence) there are countless variables to take into account and unless they've both driven each others cars back to back round the same track then you can't hope to make even a useful subjective comment, please don't tell me this statement of fact comes from road driving
As for sidewall flex, you really don't have a clue. Sidewall flex doesn't give magic grip but the stiffness will have an effect on grip drop off and handling characteristics (but not necessarily out right grip or laptimes). F1 cars need flex in there tires because they don't use tires in the same way as road cars. Generally in production racing cars it is desirable to get rid of lateral tire flex but you still want a reasonable profile to improve ride (if you want to go on about the merits of higher profile tires this is what you need).
I'm not saying they have to flex alot, just more than the shit 2 inch sidewall tires people buy at the local "tuning shop". A standard sidewall tire will always outperform something like that, thats all I was stating.
If you look at the link, those tires are mostly 40-50 sidewalls.
If the sidewall doesn't flex enough it can be just as bad as if it flexes too much. I never said soft sidewalls give you better grip, but if you have sidewalls that are to stiff it can effect the handeling of a car negatively, the car will become twitchy.
As you said, F1 tires are designed for use on that type of car specificaly, and different compounds have different side wall stiffness.
Ride quality is a factor too, but its not as high a priority if the car is going to be raced.
I understand alot about how all this works, I've done alot of research.
anything below 40 on a 235 tire is unquestionably going to ruin the ride quality, but it will also make the car twitchy as hell.
Unfortunately you routinely show you clearly don't have a clue what your talking about when you suggest 65 profile tires, report that any car capable of 402km/h will not be able to 'take corners well' unless it has got some 'serious racing slicks' and give us some nonsense about Golfs.
Lower than 40 profile tires will not automatically create a twitchy car either.
If you have a tire that is not wide enough (say 215), and you put something like a 35 sidewall (lowest you can get in canada) it will be twitchy.
I know that from the countless number of cars that I see with dents, and missing bodywork, and even twisted frames. Because the idiot ricer owner decided 20 inch wheels with no side wall would be a good idea. And then he tries to race and realizes that the rear end doesn't want to stay at the rear of the car.
If you want to drag race, you get 60+ sidewall slicks.
If you road race, 205/50 R16 fronts, 235/45 R16 rears. anything lower isn't going to help at all. THATS ALL I WAS SAYING!
Hell, if you want to go overkill then you can get 215/45 R16 fronts and 265/45 R15 rears. But thats more of a drag setup.
I work with tires almost every day, its part of my job to know what will work and what wont
Lastly, put racing slicks on that car that goes 400km/h and watch how much better it will corner than on road legal tires.
Potentially you could have a faster drop off of grip than with higher profile tires but that still doesn't mean it'll be some untamable beast. If you notice this on the road though you're driving far beyond any sensible margin of safety.
Very true. Also notice how going round corners is not a requirement in drag racing.
What the hell is road racing? Those tires would probably be undesirably high profile for any track use if you had the choice.
Sure
Put a nice set of low profile performance tires on it and notice how much better it is at going round corners than with drag racing tires.
Can i just say, that this is complete bogus, or your just over exagerating.
I just want to point out that in the next few lines, im am not IN NOW WAY showing off (even though theres nothing to show off about ).
My brother has this one car he has modified. He decided to put some 19 inch wheels on it. The tyre size is 215/35/19 (here's a pic of the wheel). As you can see, its a pretty low profile! Now, you said "If you have a tire that is not wide enough (say 215), and you put something like a 35 sidewall (lowest you can get in canada) it will be twitchy". Funnily enough, thats the same size as my brothers tyre size. Whats that about it being twitchy? hmm, i've never noticed that. I've been in the car with him when were doing just under 165mph, and obviously, it was slighty bumpy due to the road being knackered, but at no point was the car twitchy. I myself have also threw the car around corners a few times. It grips VERY good but there is obviously going to be understeer due to it being FWD. Apart from that, i did'nt get no twitchyness or at no point did i feel unstable in the car. Even with such a low profile size, the car is very smooth over bumps and feels very planted on the straights. The only thing that is a downside is road noise, which obviously, low profiles suffer with.
I can see what your saying about having a higher profile can benefit in cornering, and its true, it can. But, having a profile the size of 60 or above is just way too much.
I might have been exagerating a bit, but thats not the point.
By twitchy I don't mean an "Uncontrolable beast" either
I find people like to put words in my mouth alot.
I didn't say to put DRAG slicks on it, proper circuit racing slicks.
If you don't know what road racing is, its the same thing as circuit racing. Basicaly a different term we use over here in canada to differentiate between oval and circuit tracks. We call them ovals and road courses.
Show me one racing tire thats got 35 side walls. I'd like to see what car that goes on as well.
Sidewalls of 60 are standard on production cars the age of the OP's, so unless you modifiy the suspension (alignment change will do) it will handel worse. But you can go to as low as 40 with wider tires and some alignment changes.
Assuming we're talking road tires like in the original example we were discussing are you seriously suggesting that higher profile road tires would be better on that 962 than the tires it is on in the photo?
If you're not talking about using drag racing slicks then why did you bring them and 60+ profile tires up? Nobody here has mentioned anything about straight line performance and you were half way through a post discussing cornering when you suddenly bring them up as though they've got any relevance.
There are alot more drag strips around than circuit tracks. I figured he'd want to do both drag and circuit, in which case he'd need to know what tires to use for each.
I was simply stating that if he wants to drag race he needs high profile drag tires, and if he wants to road race, going to 40 profile tires would be too much for a car he will drive on the street. It will kill the ride.
unless he has the budget to buy 2 sets of wheels. then swap out when he gets to the track. Then he could get some proper racing tires and still keep the same ride quality on the road. Provided he made the proper suspension adjustments.
If you would just take the time to read what I said about that car you keep mentioning, I didn't say put high profile tires on it. I said put on high performance racing tires instead of the road legal tires.
The only racing tires I've found that go below 40 are tires that fit on rims that take tires above 255. but thats because a 275 tire with a 40 sidewall would be very tall.
In the US there are alot more drag strips around than circuit tracks, and the OP is in the US.
The US is also where you can go to a "performance shop" and get 20 inch rims with retardedly low side walls for the width of the tire,
like 205/35 R20.
I've just been trying to make the point that its better to get a 235/40 R16 wheel than a 235/35 R17 wheel.
Because all "high performance" tires sold in "performance shops" are just low profile to sell, they arn't going to handel like something you'd buy from a brand like Mickey Thomson.
and if you want to go crazy you could get 275/35 R17 wheels, but the side walls arn't going to be all that low because of how wide the tire is. I woulden't recommend tires that wide on a street car though.
Stop linking to those drag racing tires. I think you'll find very few people wish to go drag racing in a heavy turbocharged Japanese road car, even in America it's far more likely to be used for fast road driving, track use or skidding, all of which specialist drag racing tires will be worse than the standard road tires. Any set of reasonably sporty tires should be fine to handle a car with less than 500bhp delivered not very abruptly to the rear wheels in a straight line, unless the OP wishes to drag race competitively there is no reason to go and buy high profile drag tires. Given the fact he wants 'a track/ road car brought out on the weekends.' I doubt he considers straight line performance the most important consideration.
As for this 'road racing' you keep going onto it at least refer to it as road course racing. Road racing is used to describe wheel to wheel racing events on tracks made from public roads (other than city streets), typically only by bikes today but there used to be some excellent road races in North America, although you're probably as ignorant about this as you are on tires.
I'm not linking to Drag tires, those are street performance tires, the drag tires are in a different section.
If he wants to race on the road/circuit those are a good choice.
And they are only one example of tires designed for what he wants.
They don't have a high profile, you can get them with 40 side walls with the standard widths that will fit in most stock wheel wells.
But they arn't retardedly low either, like these http://www.customwheelsdirect. ... s/Dodge_Charger_Logo2.jpg When people say low profile, that is my definiton of low profile.
I've been saying it all along. Those are the wheels I'm talking about, with retarded side walls, proper high performance tires that fit on standard rim sizes will have no less than 40 sidewalls.
First of all, the OP strictly said he wants a street legal TRACK CAR, not a drag car.
second - you barge in advising offroad / drag radials for better cornering
third - you get your facts broken in pieces and now try to make it look like a misunderstanding
fourth - You still try to look like "an expert" by starting to talk about drag racing, while just yesterday you were talking about "road racing" (which is in fact Circuit Racing) but still advising the same tires
JUST STOP, go chop a tree down, or do something else useful
Did you look at the tires I suggested? It says sportsman S/R.
what do you think the S/R stands for? STREET RADIAL.
I suggested those tires yesterday as well, but you obviously didn't see it.
as for the comments about drag racing, I wasn't saying thats what he was going to do. I didn't say all that much about it exept for when ajp made a comment about the tires being drag tires.
I gave examples of 2 setups, 1 for drag and 1 for circuit racing.
On a Road racing car that he's going to drive to the track you need something thats going to perform well at all times.
so again 205/45 R17 fronts and 235/40 R17 rears will do fine.
Those are what my friends Mustang 5L is riding on, and its built for racing. Its not even road legal.
And thats circuit racing, not drag.
I don't know what you people consider low profile, but 45 isn't realy here. And most racing tires come between 40-45 unless they are larger than 275 in which case they can go to as low as 30
but thats on 305s
for a track day car... right....with rwd and 400 bhp... cool....
I have driven a e36 with a mere 1.8 twincam with 225 tires at the back, and you know what? wheelspin... get the idea? 140 bhp somewhat 10 years ago... wheels... spinning, not enough grip
and you suggest that extra 10 mm will do wonders and let a 400 bhp turbocharged track monster grip into the asphalt like mad...
(btw, your friend's 5.0 mustang develops a bit over 17 bhp, and over 1500 nm of torque at 250 rpm, so no wonder he's doing fine (not exactly correct data, but you get the idea of why your friend uses those)
-fix any rust or dings.
-get the five lug conversion ( get the Z32 brakes while you are at it)
-get a decent set of coilovers.
-don't bother with a RB, my experience is they are a pain.
-if money is left, rebuild your KA24DE and turbo that thing.
You'll be close to 350whp on pump gas.
Might want to slip in a new Kouki front bumper + tailights+ nice set of rims somewhere in those steps.
I suggest 16", personal opinion ( but R33 GTR rims works like a charm )
He's not going to need 400HP for a weekend track day car, and everyone already told him that.
This is especialy true if he hasn't raced alot before.
And the Mustang I mentioned is in a spec class, If you want to put down 400HP then get 215/45 R17 fronts and 275/40 R16 rears
If you want the same diameter rims front and back then go with 275/35 R17.
If he wants to get realy wide tires (285-305) he needs to chop the wheel wells and modify the rear suspension because 305 wont fit on a stock 240. I'm not sure 275 even will.
If you can't get 140hp to the ground with 225 tires, you need to practice your launches. any car can spin the wheels if you don't lauch correctly, and anything above 225 on a 140hp car is overkill.
So he's got no choice but to use control tires... you really enjoy discrediting yourself at any opportunity. You've just about managed to salvage your way out of looking like an idiot, yes the tire sizes your suggesting are now appropriate so long as your using proper competition tires but they're a long way off what you started bullshitting on about a page ago
I still hold to my opinion that if you use narrow wheels you still need 55 sidewalls or higher, so I was not bullshiting.
My widths where off though, I'll admit that. I actualy had to look at a 305 and a fue different sizes today to sort out whats what.
If you use narrow tires like 205 you can use 50 sidewalls because the ratio will give you a lower profile anyway.
I had to correct myself about the mustang, I apologize, but just think about it. If those tires where not up to par would the class alow them? He curtainly isn't spinning his wheels all the way around the track with 270hp.
To answer your question, yes. Plenty of championships require unoptimal road tires and drum brakes, although however bad your tires and brakes are it doesn't make things dangerous if you know what their limits are.
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