Primoz's example does seem rather extreme, in road conditions you shouldn't experience brake fade unless you're driving well outside safe limits for a long time. On a track it's completely different, if you consciously look after your brakes you should be alright, but DOT4 will boil very quickly if you don't, especially if you put it in a car that is designed to have racing fluid, I know someone who had a massive accident in a single seater when he didn't know he had DOT4 in the car by mistake.
Primoz's example does seem rather extreme, in road conditions you shouldn't experience brake fade unless you're driving well outside safe limits for a long time. On a track it's completely different, if you consciously look after your brakes you should be alright, but DOT4 will boil very quickly if you don't, especially if you put it in a car that is designed to have racing fluid, I know someone who had a massive accident in a single seater when he didn't know he had DOT4 in the car by mistake.
I always thought the setup options where so many in the Alpha to test the sim to it's limit and get rid of possible bugs... And that unrealistic options would be removed in a possible final version.
Yes, I believe that's why we still have the locked diff option. Although it is good for drag racing.
You've never driven hard enough then ! (or at least braked hard enough) cant remember a motor I've driven that's not had massive brake fade . Very scary sensation (without left foot braking)
The other night my mate was driving me home in his volvo estate turbo and his brakes were on fire when we pulled up
:bananadea Or maybe it's just good Scottish twisty steep roads your missing
:splat:Now with huge 4 pot Brembo's ,325mm twin grooved vented discs ,s/s braided hoses, DOT 5.1 and Ferodo DS,3000 racing pads the only 'give' i get is the bulk head flexing .
The advice for bedding in the pads runs as follows;
When bedding in the car always try to bed on used rotors. If bedding on new rotors follow the rotor bedding instructions of the manufacturer, as it is important to heat cycle them first before bedding the pads. After fitting the new pads prepare the car by blocking off 50 percent of the brake cooling / air ducts to speed the “heat up time”. When leaving the pit lane apply brake gently at low speed to ensure pads are fitted correctly, build up temperature progressively to approx 350° C (670° F). This enables the heat to distribute around all areas of the pad.
When brakes are at suitable temperature begin bedding process, achieve approximately 70 percent of race speed then perform 25-30 brake applications at half normal race pedal pressure holding on for 4 seconds.
When this is completed use a slowing down lap to allow brakes to cool. Return to the pit lane and allow pads to cool completely, check rotor appearance. Transfer film should be constant around rotor face, any “patchy” deposit will result in brake pedal judder. The use of temperature paint on rotors enables more accurate bedding procedure.
This is fun when you dont have a track !
downhill late braking will 'kill' almost any roadcar's brakes. I once had a Cinquecento - overheated the brakes within probably 1km. and yes... it's been the discs, not the fluid. then I mounted better discs and pads. they could stand a bit longer... but still...
to contribute a bit more to the topic: maybe it's not very realistic to have a dumbo-anti-lock-system by reducing the braking force... but I think other features are exploited to a much greater degree. but hey, I've always been for (server forced) locked setups. I want my 75-hp, bouncy suspensioned, long geared XFG cup!!
to contribute a bit more to the topic: maybe it's not very realistic to have a dumbo-anti-lock-system by reducing the braking force... but I think other features are exploited to a much greater degree. but hey, I've always been for (server forced) locked setups. I want my 75-hp, bouncy suspensioned, long geared XFG cup!!
A bit OT but not all FWD's have rear trailing arm suspension. I have struts in which I can adjust camber, toe, and caster to an extent from the factory, granted the parameters are small, but still.
Correct me if I am wrong but brake systems 'could' be adjusted to be able to do what we do in LFS (IE set 100% braking at the point where the brakes lock) Changing pad compounds, rotor diamters, piston sizes would all change the braking to how people set up their cars in LFS.
If the brakes we get with our wheels were pressure sensative I wouldn't see a problem with changing how the brake force is done, but we have position sensitive and it works fine.
I have to admit given the range of classic cars with interesting brakes Tristan has probably driven I'm suprised he hasn't had brake fade. I've had pad fade twice, once after half an hour of lapping on a track day and once driving faster than I should have been down a very steep road (which was rather less expected and more scary).
My real car acts like the people that set their brake pressures low. Guess what, for a couple hundred $$ I can have corvette 12" brakes on the car and the brakes will be able to stop the car many many times fast and not fade. They will also be able to lock but...
A proportioning valve does not cost much either, so don't remove the brake bias adjustment.
In all honesty about anything on a car can be modified with a bit of $$ and work.
The brakes on my car now are soo shameful. They are 9" solid discs all around for a car that weighs 2700lbs. Brake fade for this car is ugly seeing as it has nothing to begin with
. I can barely get the thing to lock up on a wet road while it is raining.
Oh yea almost forgot..
CARBON CERAMIC BRAKE PADS FTW!
A proportioning valve does not cost much either, so don't remove the brake bias adjustment.
In all honesty about anything on a car can be modified with a bit of $$ and work.
The brakes on my car now are soo shameful. They are 9" solid discs all around for a car that weighs 2700lbs. Brake fade for this car is ugly seeing as it has nothing to begin with
. I can barely get the thing to lock up on a wet road while it is raining.Oh yea almost forgot..
CARBON CERAMIC BRAKE PADS FTW!
A lot of club series only allow brake linings, fluid and pads and shoes to be changed though.
What would you all think if we had the auto adjusting proportioning valve that many of the news cars have factory? I cannot remember what they are called exactly now, been a long day... I know the reason behind them is to bring the system operating pressure up as fast as possible, but for me it means, especially with an after market front brake system, that I don't really have to worry about rear lockup. But would this be something we would want to see in LFS for 'realisms sake' especially if a newer road car was brought in.
If you're completely not prone to lock up you're disadvantaging yourself with the variances in braking zones. Let the nubs be. :P Most of the talent in a braking zone is combining your brake/steering inputs on final entry anyway which is impossible to avoid, not the straightline stuff.
Agreed!
I normally set my car up so that it locks up pretty good in the slowest corner on the track, and then just modulate the brakes there.
Recently I had the chance to go out to Laguna Seca with my dad with WAJ (western automotive journalists). There were like 50 brand new cars begging to be flogged by less than talented journalists. You got 2.7 laps, 2 being full flying laps and the .7 coming onto the track. I couldn't drive, but was there as a guest and was a passenger with my dad all day (who is talented btw, so I had tons of fun).
ok, enough bragging and now the point of the post :P
The European cars had no issues with brakes...they begged to be driven. The domestic and Japanese cars had terrible brakes. At the end of the first or second lap, the brakes were hot, faded, and very unreliable. We weren't completely beating the shit out of them, keeping braking distances reasonable and tidy, and you weren't allowed to hang any tires or they gave you a talking to. They said drive at "8/10"
Anyways, 2 things contribute to this. ABS, and cheap ass brakes. ABS allows you to just mash the pedal and it will give you with confidence max braking of the vehicle. Now, couple this with cheap ass brakes, and they are toast very quickly.
We were only in one precarious situation the whole day...the honda finally gave up and the brakes were gone...Right before turn 6 which is a very fast, hard and short braking zone, left hander going up the hill towards the corkscrew. We inched all the way out to the edge of the rumble strips and finally the right rear slipped off. The hardest part was getting back to the pits and slipping out of the car unnoticed
In conclusion, stock brakes are crap and do fade very quickly, and the audi r8 is one of the greatest cars ever.
Recently I had the chance to go out to Laguna Seca with my dad with WAJ (western automotive journalists). There were like 50 brand new cars begging to be flogged by less than talented journalists. You got 2.7 laps, 2 being full flying laps and the .7 coming onto the track. I couldn't drive, but was there as a guest and was a passenger with my dad all day (who is talented btw, so I had tons of fun).
ok, enough bragging and now the point of the post :P
The European cars had no issues with brakes...they begged to be driven. The domestic and Japanese cars had terrible brakes. At the end of the first or second lap, the brakes were hot, faded, and very unreliable. We weren't completely beating the shit out of them, keeping braking distances reasonable and tidy, and you weren't allowed to hang any tires or they gave you a talking to. They said drive at "8/10"
Anyways, 2 things contribute to this. ABS, and cheap ass brakes. ABS allows you to just mash the pedal and it will give you with confidence max braking of the vehicle. Now, couple this with cheap ass brakes, and they are toast very quickly.
We were only in one precarious situation the whole day...the honda finally gave up and the brakes were gone...Right before turn 6 which is a very fast, hard and short braking zone, left hander going up the hill towards the corkscrew. We inched all the way out to the edge of the rumble strips and finally the right rear slipped off. The hardest part was getting back to the pits and slipping out of the car unnoticed
In conclusion, stock brakes are crap and do fade very quickly, and the audi r8 is one of the greatest cars ever.
one of the 2539 greatest cars... yeah.
Japanese car brakes crap? Yet people have problems trying to overheat the Evolution X's Brembos after multiple laps of full race-pace lapping.
If you are referring to the usual "sport compacts", yes they do have adequately powerful but undersized (durability wise) brakes. But next time, please try to toast Skyline R35 GTR's massive brakes before throwing such sweeping statements.
Last time I checked, one easily toast most non-sport road car brakes after just a few laps of close to 100% driving. Unless you change to suitable pads, get better discs, ...
That sounds like a typical load of crap from you. People may have difficulty getting racing brakes up to temperature but by law road cars cannot use racing fluid which instantly renders a standard road car useless for serious track work.
=)
Hmm, maybe I should reconsider using my high temp dot3 then... and wilwood BP150's and Hawk HP+ pads...
I think he might partially be right though, most people that would own an evo wouldn't know how to drive it, hence having no brake problems while on the track... thats my assumption anyways.
How about replacing it with the choice of rotor size etc.? When Scawen implements brake heat, it could become a trade-off between heating problems and modulating the brakes... 
It's not a post from Jamexing with these words. I always visualise him sitting around watching TV like XFactor easting pies when all of a sudden he thinks "I'll just check how easy it is to toast non-sport road car brakes". Then, having performed the test, he returns to his dull life of XFactor and pies.
One never gets the impression he's ever actually driving a car, or perhaps he's a janitor for a race team and is insanely jealous and bitter because he's not the driver...
If only you guys have any idea what I've investigated, tested and done with cars, though it's pretty pointless to explain one's vast experiences to little kids who plug around on LFS all day long thinking it's almost a replacements for the real thing.
By the way, DOT 4 road legal brake fluid with boiling temps significantly over 300 Celsius are NOT uncommon, and believe it or not, numerous road cars work great with them. End of the day, however, most brake cooking I've observed (mostly from AGGRESSIVE downhill runs) aren't fluid related though. It's the discs and pads that usually fry first in my experience. This of course assumes that the fluid isn't sub-par, which is usually the case.
And Trsitan, you disappoint me. To NOT have cooked those less than reliable classic car brakes is a clear sign that you have NEVER pushed those cars as close or beyond the limits as I have pushed many cars from the 80s and beyond. All the more reason as to why one would be foolish to place too much trust in automotive matters to him. Those were the days when brakes die fast and people either slowed down or used engine braking (absolute hell for the engine and the drivetrain). Well, high rates of mechanical failure were considered "normal" then.
Finally, my real point was to respond to the sweeping statement regarding cars of different nationalities. If one knows even half as much as how cars really are as I do they would think twice about issuing such statements without prior statement, e.g. "in general...". Get an old Volvo 240, track it close to its limits with fully OE brakes and you'll get it.
The recipe for a fade prone car is really simple IRL. Lots of mass, undersized discs, calipers and pad area, coupled with water infested fluid and hopelessly bad brake cooling. In fact, one can safely get away with small brakes that deliver the power needed as long as the brake cooling is there, though you do pay the price in overall brake component life (shorter pad and disc life, etc.).
Remember, the laws of physics are the same for all in this universe (besides special cases which we simply won't experience in our everyday lives). And it really doesn't matter who you are or where you're from, or even how many people think you are "god".
And Tristan, you can't be more wrong about me. I DON'T play XFactor (never heard of it before LFS and really don't care as I am too busy with the real ting to play such things these days). And I don't eat pies to any significant frequency. Maybe I should hire you as my janitor?
dude I'm sorry but either you're a massive troll or a retard
for one, I was trying to keep my post to a moderate length so people would actually read it
second of all, I don't much care about the OMGLANCEREVOEXXXXXXX or the R35 BEST CARCREAMINMYPANTSEVER as the brake pedal goes to the floor with no warning in the honda accord (which is Japanese iirc? yes?) we're driving around the track going quite fast towards a 35 degree left turn
I said the domestic cars and the japanese cars frequently had brake problems, whereas none of the european cars did FROM ANY PRICE RANGE. Granted none of the european cars are cheap.
I didn't mention that the more expensive domestic cars and japanese cars could last 3 laps without brake fade because that was not exactly the point I was trying to make.
Please take your downs syndrome and go elsewhere
edit - I just read your second post
Please explain the special cases where the laws of physics don't apply.
I believe this "threshold" can be adjusted by changing the center position of the axis. So if for instance it takes too much pedal travel to reach the threshold, move the center closer to zero travel. Also, as stated in the other thread a few posts above, consistency is much more important than a tenth or two of a second.
Thanks this is exactly the point I was trying to make. It didn't show any similar topics after typing in the title
Tristan is an engineer, from what I've seen I presume you're not.
Maybe, but the manufacturer will specify DOT4, or in some less sophisticated parts of the world DOT3. On standard fluid you may get fluid being an issue, if you're getting fluid to boil on road use with standard brakes something is seriously wrong with your car or driving though.
Brake fade of any type is very dangerous and it can be predicted and there are measures to take to prevent it, never having had brake fade is a bit like arguing that if you haven't spun on the way to the supermarket you don't know the limits of your car. Tristan is a very good, very quick driver, certainly stands out on a club grid. I think you'd be one of the idiots at the back constantly over driving
I don't. I'm too busy with real racing to play LFS these days, but I try and have a go now and again. I presume you play LFS too, being a member of this forum?
The DoT rating is based on temperature, so DoT4 at 300°C wouldn't be a DoT4. Road pads are designed to work from cold, and as such can't handle high temperatures, and shouldn't be expected to. Modern discs are poor quality, but unless you're warping them discs don't 'fry'.
Partly it's because I don't drive classic cars like a twat, and partly because I try to avoid braking at all costs on the road - coasting is safer, easier, smoother and just as quick. But I've been a complete loon in plenty of cars from the 80s and 90s (few of which are classics) and never had fluid fade. And when I say a complete loon, I mean a complete and utter loon. Maybe I don't brake as hard as some ricers because I carry more corner speed?
You don't really seem to know that much though, so lets assume that 60% of the population knows as much or more. Not looking so clever now.
Agreed, although pad area has little to do with it. But being sensible I change my brake fluid annually (doesn't everyone, and if not why not?). Maybe that explains why I've never had fluid fade, because my brakes aren't shot? I admit I've never driven down an alpine pass though, where I wouldn't be surprised by fade.
Actually the laws of physics are the same without exceptions. We just don't know those laws, and pretty much only have laws that work in the macro world.
XFactor is a TV show about losers singing badly and attracting morons to watch it.
Alex - 'standing out' on a club grid isn't necessarily because I'm any good. It might be because everyone else is just as bad as me! Sadly there is no evidence in either direction as we haven't had a successful, professional driver on the Mono grid for a while (although there has been the occasional Formula Renault driver(s) propping up the back of the grids!
) You can be our janitor if you like?
Remove max braking force from setup options
(128 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG