Before anything is said: this only affects players that use manual clutch and drive with keyboard only. In some cases manual clutch + mouse + keyboard.

What is Pre-Select shifting method?
It's how I call the shifting method that was used in X patch. You pressed the "Shift Up" or "Shift Down" buttons how many times you wanted - game "remembered" it, but didn't change gear until you clutched. So, if you were in 5th, pressed "Shift Down" two times (still in 5th gear), then clutched, you ended up in 3rd gear. Skipping one gear - I'll come back to that later. Same with up shifting.

Why add it?
Technical reasons (and I liked it better). Some, if not many, keyboards have a keypress limitation. Limiting the number of keys that can be pressed at the same time (but to work properly) to three. Meaning, if you pressed fourth key it wouldn't register.
In Y patch, you must shift differently - press AND hold "Shift Up" or "Shift Down" then clutch to change gear. For a keyboarder, a car approaching a turn this means: brake + turn + shift down + clutch (+ blip in some cases). That's 4-5 buttons at the same time.
With pre-select, need to hold "Shift Up"/"Shift Down" while clutching is eliminated because key press was "remembered". So it would look like this: shift down, brake + turn + clutch (+ blip in some cases). That's 3-4 buttons at the same time. Manageable.

- About skipping one gear: if it's a problem (might be considered as an advantage or a cheat) then limit the shifting so it must go 5-4-3 without skipping.

How to implement:
(just an idea)
In Options -> Driver, add a "Gear shift method" (or whatever) toggle button bellow "Auto clutch:" (it appears only if Auto clutch: [no]). Button toggles between normal/pre-select (or whatever).

Here's a link to some post I found with info about keypress limitation - http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/showthread.php?t=8282. 1st post has a PDF attached with technical explanation why it happens. Post bellow explains a good way to "solve" keypress limitation problem - redefine your keys :P

Thanks for reading

+1 for nicely backed up informative improvement suggestion

Definitely a well written improvement suggestion (also your other one), but you miss one critical point. Please don't take this personally, but coding these improvements would be a waste of time.

There are a lot of things that could make the life of a racer using keyboard or mouse easier, however the point is that LFS is supposed to be played with a wheel. Keyboard and mouse support are rudimentary on purpose, because they are mainly there to allow new racers to try the sim before they commit themselves and buy a wheel.

+1 for interesting idea

i can still do this with my g25.

i shift into 2nd then it goes neutral and i presss clutch. and im in 2nd!

I would suggest buying a 360 controller of you don't want to shell out for a wheel.

Just use auto-clutch. It's what it's there for.

Hmm. Perhaps someone who's prepared to write out such long and detailed improvement suggestions doesn't want to be replied to with "Just use auto-clutch".

A very well presented suggestion - we need more of them to be written like this - although unrealistic. There is no manual gearbox on earth where this is possible, by definition of the gearstick, you can't preselect

However, your point about keystroke limitations is news to me, and does provide another aspect for this sort of thing. Personally, I think it's a bit of an advantage for the car to shift automatically once declutched, but not quite so much as it is a disadvantage for you not to be able to shift down at all

I think, if this was to be implemented, it would need to be available for keyboard drivers only. It really is an advantage for 'wheel users, and unrealistic and boring advantages don't help. It matters not to me, but for those who are unable to use anything but a keyboard limited like this, I suppose it's useful.

However, it could be argued - doubtless it will - that if you're really that concerned, you'd either buy a 'wheel, a controller, or at least a half-decent keyboard

Sam

I could have written an equally lengthy post, but it wasn't necessary. What does this boil down to? Is there some disadvantage to using autoclutch which some keyboarders/mousers feel they should not have to deal with? Anyway, I've just realised I don't care

Thanks for your feedback.
I see that you like my post - well, since this forum is the official one (6th line) to post for Improvement Suggestions, some degree of quality must be maintained. At least that is how I feel about it.

Sorry AndroidXP, but your post is 100% wrong - just kidding, up to the 1st "," it's good (nothing personally) :P
Let's see:

Quote from AndroidXP :

... however the point is that LFS is supposed to be played with a wheel. Keyboard and mouse support are rudimentary on purpose, because they are mainly there to allow new racers to try the sim before they commit themselves and buy a wheel.

When I read it 1st time it made me laugh. It sounds like You programed the game yourself. Unless You know more via private channels, wheel is highly recommended and should be used (LINK). Until it says: required - leaves plenty of room for mouse/keyboard, don't You think? Furthermore, it is far from truth to say mouse/keyboard support are rudimentary. Actually, it is among the best on the racing games market (well that's arguable, my knowledge on that is not perfect :P).
About me missing a point - none taken . But let me repeat what You said in Your 2nd part of 2nd sentence - I'll only leave one word out: "Coding improvements would be a waste of time". Sounds bad doesn't it? Well keyboard/mouse support IS here, it IS great, but it CAN be better - hence my thread.

sinbad: Just use auto-clutch [no]. It's what it's there for. I did - never set it to [Yes] since :P

Dark Elite: Good post
I agree, it's not realistic to button shift (not for all cars though). However it is absolutely the same as shifting with manual clutch (already implemented). It is not easier, it is not harder, it is not same - only difference is: it requires one less keystroke at the same time. So, to remove button shifting means: axis clutch only. And that (even I know) will not happen anytime soon (if I can guess: never). Few thousand reasons (I don't know all their names :P)

- Please no more buy wheel/alternative-controller posts, I appreciate your suggestions but I'm fully aware of those. If and when I acquire a wheel is my own business. Stick to the topic only.

Thank you

Yes, it would be an improvement and not a waste for keyboard/mouse users. However, this

Quote :

It is therefore highly recommended to drive the sim with a steering wheel, because even though you can use keyboard and/or mouse, a wheel is what you use in a real car, so a wheel should be used in a serious racing simulator.

is just a market friendly way of saying "use a wheel or live with what you get". I know that there are tons of possible improvements to make keyboard control easier and more efficient, but compared to lots of other possible improvements it's a waste of time - and trust me, time is the most limiting factor in LFS development.

Now you could argue that Asian language support is a waste of time compared to other stuff, too, but that one at least broadens LFS' market, so I can kinda understand Scawen's decision on that. The keyboard support is, as you stated, "among the best on the racing games market", so it already works quite well. Adding further improvements just means perfecting an already very good feature that is nice to have but actually not an integral/important part of this sim. Thus a waste of time on the grand scale of things.

Thank you, Nilex

Remembering my keyboard-driving days, I was thinking of the timing required to match your gearshift keystroke with your clutch keystroke - however, seeing as auto-cut is now disabled, everyone has to match the throttle correctly too, so keyboard drivers already have that factor to worry about. And it was pretty easy to press spacebar and W at the same time, given the design of one's hand . Quite right, then, that this pre-select method takes very little weight off keyboard drivers.

A point I feel has been missed:
This 'waste of time' thing - while often very valid - does seem somewhat irrelevant to this particular issue, to be honest: if the coding worked like this in Patch X, it's not new coding, why would it be so difficult to continue using it in Patch Y?

Of course, it could - for some reason - be part of a completely incompatible physics engine, something to do with clutch heat implementation maybe; or perhaps it's not possible to have one car running the pre-select method alongside another car which doesn't. However, if there aren't any major problems, all it would involve is a button in the options menu and some alternative code that already exists. Doesn't seem like too much work, really, although naturally I could be wrong here.

Sam

The pre-select shift method allowed people with H-gate shifters to make insanely quick shifts. Basically you'd put the stick into the next gear and as soon as you wanted to change up you'd simply give the clutch pedal a short stab, which was basically like an instant shift. It pretty effectively prevented mis-shifts, too.

LFS tries to be a serious simulator, and looking at the general developments makes it clear it's taking steps into the right direction. At the very first the ultra-stabilised keyboard assist was removed, now throttle blip and cut are gone, as is a comfortable shifting method. Deal with it or get a proper controller. Reimplementing these keyboard-conveniences would be a step backwards, IMO.

Quote from AndroidXP :

The pre-select shift method allowed people with H-gate shifters to make insanely quick shifts. Basically you'd put the stick into the next gear and as soon as you wanted to change up you'd simply give the clutch pedal a short stab, which was basically like an instant shift. It pretty effectively prevented mis-shifts, too.

Quite right, although not the first time it's been said...?

Quote from Dark Elite :

I think, if this was to be implemented, it would need to be available for keyboard drivers only. It really is an advantage for 'wheel users, and unrealistic and boring advantages don't help.

Sam

Heh Nilex, i agree with all your thoughts but i guess that pre select shift from patch x + increased engine damage from patch y(clutch wear doesnt matter, coz it's still enuff for flatshifting) will **** up our engines in just one blip before corner It will help keyboard users and it will not give and advantage for mouse ppl oh or in not all cars ;. So why don't u just give it back in future patch? It will not make peeps faster, just makes lfs easier for keyboarders
It's great that u guys trying to make lfs as best it can be, but don't forget this is still a game and it should give us a bit of fun as well.
Yeah and please don't tell us to buy wheel, it's democracy ffs.

Quote from Smolar :

Yeah and please don't tell us to buy wheel, it's democracy ffs.

Wrong, LFS is NOT a democracy. Scawen, Victor and Eric share the dictatorship.

Quote from Dark Elite :

... I was thinking of the timing required to match your gearshift keystroke with your clutch keystroke ...

Hehe, it does require timing but not in a way it sounds when You said it (sorry if I wasn't clear enough). If I understood correctly, You mean: gearshift + clutch (simultaneously - at the same time) to change gears. I would be insane (I am a little, but not that much :P {but, by the end of this thread... who knows }) to use manual clutch if it worked like that. It would require tremendous amount of luck to do it right (practise wouldn't mean s*** here - especially with high/max button control rate). In reality it works like this: gearshift (press and hold) + clutch. Clutch needs to be pressed after gearshift (not simultaneously - but they are pressed at the same time at one point). That's easy with a few laps practise

Quote from AndroidXP :

The pre-select shift method allowed people with H-gate shifters to make insanely quick shifts....

Yes, I see what You mean. Good good, now we're getting somewhere
Basically, You're saying that pre-select H-gate shifters players combine benefits of a wheel and button shift with insanely quick shifts. Am I right? Well, shift can only be fast as fast you can push your clutch (pedal/button/whatever). But changing gears speed is limited by the H-gate shifter mechanism and the speed of your arm. For example: try imagine you have to down shift four gears quickly (if your aim is quick lap that is): 6-5-clutch-4-clutch-3-clutch-2-clutch (non-skip pre-select). I can do this faster with my fingers on buttons than anyone on this planet can do it with arm on H-gate shifter. So the issue is not insanely quick shifts with H-gate shifter, but insanely quick shifts with buttons. The pre-select don't influence shift speed.

Quote from AndroidXP :

... It pretty effectively prevented mis-shifts, too....

That's partially true, no argue there. But my guess is that it's not difficult to improve that with practise. Who mis shifts? Is it the mechanism's fault or the player's? It's interesting. One thing - you CAN mis shift with pre-select too: say you put from 5th to 7th accidentally (who watches gearstick in race anyway - :eclipseeh <--- this guy ain't) - press clutch - nothing happens (non-skip pre-select) :P

Quote from AndroidXP :

... At the very first the ultra-stabilised keyboard assist was removed, now throttle blip and cut are gone, as is a comfortable shifting method ... ... Reimplementing these keyboard-conveniences would be a step backwards, IMO.

Come on, don't put words in my mouth (like "we" gonna put some :soccer: :soccer: :soccer: in "your" net on 8.6. )

Yow Smo, mates stick together, eh? :grouphug: Tnx

Thank You

Quote from AndroidXP :

Wrong, LFS is NOT a democracy. Scawen, Victor and Eric share the dictatorship.

Thats what i tought. With that attitude, i'm sure u will get more&more s2 ppl.

It has worked quite well so far.

I don't like agreeing with Android () but in this case I think he has a point.

It's a simulator. You should be using a wheel to drive, like you would in the vehicle that's being simulated. Keyboard controls exist as part of the minimum system, but they aren't recommended nor are they really supported - you try running Crysis (for example) on the minimum system, then complain to Crytek that it doesn't run well. The minimum is there to show what it will work on, not that it'll be any good that way.

And it's not like the Auto-clutch feature isn't there. It is and you can use it. In the case described, it sounds like you NEED to use it.
So having a feature available and not using it because of whatever reason is merely being awkward. You can't say it's because you want the true sim experience, because you're using a keyboard.

Quote from Nilex :

Hehe, it does require timing but not in a way it sounds when You said it (sorry if I wasn't clear enough). If I understood correctly, You mean: gearshift + clutch (simultaneously - at the same time) to change gears. I would be insane (I am a little, but not that much :P {but, by the end of this thread... who knows }) to use manual clutch if it worked like that. It would require tremendous amount of luck to do it right (practise wouldn't mean s*** here - especially with high/max button control rate). In reality it works like this: gearshift (press and hold) + clutch. Clutch needs to be pressed after gearshift (not simultaneously - but they are pressed at the same time at one point). That's easy with a few laps practise

I drove keyboard for a couple of months when I first got LFS, and I drove using the timing method I described
Seemed like the only realistic way to do it. I mean, I wouldn't want to be pulling the gearstick for a second or so before I actually went near the clutch, every time I shifted, in my own car

I'm going to stop saying this should be only be an option for keyboard drivers and not for 'wheel users, because nobody seems to listen.

Dajmin's got a good point, but as I understand it, this request is mostly personal preference and partly increasing compatibility a little - ie, allowing manual clutch to be used on keyboards that have the keystroke restrictions described.
I'm not sure what to think about the auto-clutch thing. Personally, I would never want to use it (even on a keyboard), because it feels like cheating. Especially in making the car almost impossible to stall. So, another aspect of this little modification to the code would be that it stops making the auto-clutch, which may be an advantage in some situations, necessary for drivers using some keyboards.

However, I am still of the opinion that a new keyboard is a very inexpensive commodity, and that this modification - however small - wouldn't be necessary with a decent keyboard. Really, I'm just following this discussion to see where it ends up.

Sam

Quote from Dajmin :

It's a simulator.

If it is, why there is auto clutch with full H type manual gearbox then? Did u saw auto clutch in real life car with normal H type manual gearbox? I guess not.
I'm using mouse with manual gears,clutch coz it's faster&gives me more control on braking etc.

Nilex point was to make lfs playing for keyboarders easier, not to make peeps faster coz selecting gear before the corner. U guys should know that pre select in patch x was not even damaging engine.
I think that pre select should be in patch y. Reason: playing with keyboard only will be easier and there will be no benefits for others players, so it will not make anyone faster coz using pre select.

Quote from Smolar :

If it is, why there is auto clutch with full H type manual gearbox then?

How can you then go on about keyboard driving? Have you ever seen a real life car you drive using a mouse?

If it's a perfectly accurate simulator, why don't we have to use 'wheels mounted in cockpits that have motion bases and full surround sound? Because concessions must be made to feasible use of the simulator, and the developers accept that not everyone has a bottomless pit of money to call on. That's why this thread exists at all - to make the most of a limited budget.

You say that, with this modification, keyboard driving will be easier but nobody will be faster? How does that work, then?

Sam

Quote from Dark Elite :

You say that, with this modification, keyboard driving will be easier but nobody will be faster? How does that work, then?

I guess u know how pre selected downshifting works on patch x.
So imagine:
Normal downshift: 5->4 wait till revs drops a little and then 4->3 = no engine damage.

Straight downshift from 5 to 3: before corner u hit downshift 2 times without using a clutch and when braking goes on, hitting clutch= u goes instanly to 3rd gear, rev hits rev limiter(in patch x cars has more rpm range, patch y has less so it's another reason why pre select will not make u faster in y)

So in short: in patch x=no damage to engine and patch y=damaging engine when doing pre selected downshift, patch x style

Main reason: lower rpm range(xfg goes max to 8000 when in patch x it was going to 8000 normaly, but 11000 wasn't damaging engine when doing downshift more gears like it should)

I hope u know now, what i was about uh

the preselect is quite realistic because some old f1 cars from the 30s and 40s had it and the panoz lm v8 racer had it