Anyone got it? or the man himself? Just test drove it and liked it, beat my pb on the first lap, which had a few mistakes, i think i could reach into the 1.40's with this set, i seem to prefer his sets to any other for some reason, maybe we have the same wheel settings or something

Anyway much appreciated if you would Ray.

Thanks

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

Anyone got it? or the man himself? Just test drove it and liked it, beat my pb on the first lap, which had a few mistakes, i think i could reach into the 1.40's with this set, i seem to prefer his sets to any other for some reason, maybe we have the same wheel settings or something

Anyway much appreciated if you would Ray.

Thanks

um... Car would help

It's actually Scipys pwn set, he's a whiny bitch when it comes to sharing his perfected (cough) setups, so I can't post it now, so i'll point him to this thread and see if he minds.

Sorry, :P

Cheers Ray, i just jelled with it, the turn in, the braking, stability and the ability to put the power down earlier than i usually do.

Heres the SPR: Should easily get into the 40's as this was after 1 lap with alot of mistakes.

Tell scipy its a very good set, best ive ever tried and ive tried alot.

Think thats it.

PS: You can stop now Was actually looking forward to be in the same boundry as the WR But you've gone and spoilt it (remove the hotlap)

Im sooo annoyed right now just got a 1.41.06 and i couldn't upload because it was a test drive

Just for the fun of it I have taken an educated guess at bawbag's set using replay analysers etc

The camber steering tyre pressures etc are from deductive reasoning, the brake, gears and most suspension settings are directly from the raf file.

Tel me if I'm close I still could investigate camber more closely but I'd need to do some test laps...

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just open the replay off bawbags then pauses it before he takes off then press shift+L and match the camber from his car when it is doing nothing, guess that would be closer i guess .

Quote from Glenn67 :

Just for the fun of it I have taken an educated guess at bawbag's set using replay analysers etc

The camber steering tyre pressures etc are from deductive reasoning, the brake, gears and most suspension settings are directly from the raf file.

Tel me if I'm close I still could investigate camber more closely but I'd need to do some test laps...

Practicly it, a little bit differn't PSI's but if they work then.....

Sasa doesn't want me to upload his greatness setup, even though 90% of it is practicly on here, sorry.

Quote from Bawbag :

Practicly it, a little bit differn't PSI's but if they work then.....

Cool I'm sure I could get closer with more effort, that just took a few mins

Quote :

Sasa doesn't want me to upload his greatness setup, even though 90% of it is practicly on here, sorry.

that sounds like a challenge to see if I can get closer to the same setup now if it was a car I actually drive I might be persuaded to try but I don't think I've even left the pits in a gtr car since physics reset

Quote from rc10racer :

just open the replay off bawbags then pauses it before he takes off then press shift+L and match the camber from his car when it is doing nothing, guess that would be closer i guess

Good point that confirms camber to be a little different, think Bawbag's playing pocker (holding cards close to his chest!)

With more detailed analysis of raf data I think you could get some idea of diff settings through analysis of power at the wheels at variours stages, you could also verify toe and parallel steer although the diff and parrellel steer settings would be the most subjective.

With several runs comparing raf data you could more closely approximate wing settings looking at top speeds and tyre loads. And of course with several test laps you could get some idea of how close you are to the correct tyre pressures...

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Awww man, now i have to bitch slap him till he co-operates

Me not giving people a set is not a challange for you to go and steal it from a spr. I've had the sub-wr time on aston national for the past 3 months almost and never felt the need to upload it just cause of people like you (and others whom I have occasionally asked for a set and got "SRY TEAM SET" excuses). So it is _NOT_ bawbag's set (in fact he can't even drive it cause it's just heaps of understeer - because of his lausy driving technique :nod so he changed some of the things you cant see from a raf. In any case, the set first came from Biernot (SKA69) in the previous patch even, and then I worked on it and now it's credited to Bawbag. And you wonder why people wont give away sets easily (at least people who actually put in the work on the set).

Call me whatever you want but I was not and am not ever gonna be one of the people who are affraid to give a set to someone because that someone might "beat me". Hell, I gave the set to bawbag and still he got pwnt online. EPIC FAIL.

Don't go around stealing sets. Learn. Make your own. When you are able to build decent sets we might exchange some - me just giving away setups and still having to build them for every new combo just doesn't make any sense.

Quote from scipy :

Don't go around stealing sets. Learn. Make your own. When you are able to build decent sets we might exchange some - me just giving away setups and still having to build them for every new combo just doesn't make any sense.

Meh I don't necessarily disagree with your stance I partly did this to high-light just how easy it is to determine setup data, which I don't necessarily think is right, but at the moment anyone can do it . I did suspect it might stir a hornets nest

Quote from Victor :

NOTE (2) - The setup values controversy.
The idea behind RAF files and this hotlap analyser is to stimulate people to study their driving skills. Because hotlap analysis is now as easy as a couple of clicks, it should become much more attractive and fun to learn how to improve your driving. Part of this is studying basic setup settings. Yes some people regard full suspension values as too much, but it is only half of the full setup, and it is the part that people can learn the most from. Seeing why someone uses a softer or harder suspension on a certain track allows them to better see how suspension works and that it should not be the same for all tracks. These values can also be used in addition with the suspension movement and remaining range graphs in the analyser.
If you really feel that it is a breach of your privacy and do not wish others to learn from your hotlap, then you should not upload your hotlaps to LFS World, or anywhere else for that matter, because these values have been in RAF files ever since the format was created. I don't think we will remove them either.

Tbh, to me that reads: "If it's an RAF and/or is on LFSW, it's free game". While not everyone may agree with this, it is the official stance on the matter.

So if I give my set to bawbag and he takes down a WR I should forbid him to upload it? That's just silly. On the other hand, I can't really count on people being fair - can I? I think this is a good time to quote Mark Donohue. The book is "The Unfair Advantage", page 85, chapter about LOLA T70. Setup is as follows: at the first race at Elkhart Lake, Dan Gurney's car was pretty slow and had some suspension problems, but when Dan showed up for the next race the car was heaps faster. So now the actual passage by Mark Donohue:

"When Dan showed up at the next race he had a different rear suspension and the car was lots faster. He had moved the control arm brackets around and fabricated new wishbones, probably based on his experiences with the Ford factory team efforts. I didn't understand why, and I was really curious about it. Even though I still didn't know him, he seemed like such a likeable guy that I asked him. "Please, would you mind telling me what you've done here?" Dan sat down and said, "Look, we all work really hard in racing to be a little bit better than the next guy. Roger (Penske) has a lot of ins that I don't have, like getting pieces from Chevrolet and cars from Lola. Now maybe I understand suspensions a little bit better than other people, and that may give me some small advantage. I would be stupid to tell that to anyone." I thought that was a really good answer. He could have said, "Go shove it!" but instead he calmly and sensibly said what I always say now when asked a similar question. After that I never asked a competitor a question, and I seldom offered any solutions. Whenever I did, I'm sorry to say, I usually lost somehow because of it."

So, to sum up. Bawbag is probably the most naturally talented driver in LFS, it took him the shortest amount of time to go from nob to consistant WR holder and race winner. His sets, I'm sorry to say, usually suck (for normal people) becuase they are too edgy (oversteery) because he can balance the car on a much finer line than me. On the other hand, I lack talent, but I make up for it by reading countless books on driving and car mechanics and suspensions. So if this setup (or any other setup) is the tool which allows me to come to a same level (or at least really close) to Bawbag or any other "alien" for that matter - it is only because I've put in the work and made a set that is very driveable with the correct technique (trading off braking for cornering forces smoothly). So who are you, or even who is Victor, to say that it's "fair game" to just take it?

P.S. People who don't know basics about how springs and antiroll bars work wont benefit from seeing "oh look it's a harder suspension for this track". They will just copy without any understanding and still not be able to drive it because it is not tailored to their style or level of skill. So please just quit trying to justify "stealing". Or even if you do steal or take what is not yours - give credit where credit is due. And credit for most good FZR setups that float around your folders goes to Sracer - because it was his Aston GP set from almost 2 years ago that is STILL the base for many of the sets out there (including the as3 set in question).

Quote :

So if I give my set to bawbag and he takes down a WR I should forbid him to upload it?

If you don't want your data in the public, yes. Regarding your next point too, you give him your set and tell him you don't want it on the net. Don't share private sets with people you can't trust.

On the quote from the book I'd say that the situation is a bit different. There's a lot of financial investment and return involved, so there's a lot more reason to keep even the smallest of advantages. (Serious) Leagues and competitions with prizes that involve LFS of course can be said to be the same thing, and I agree. This is why such events should provide a way to submit hotlaps for qual w/e so that they do not end up on LFSW where your competitors can analyse them. It's not possible to get the setup info from MPRs so anything that isn't a hotlap is safe anyway.

The bottom line is this, I think: As Victor said, it's unlikely the replay data on LFSW is going to get any more private than it is now. Instead of having to go along with it kicking and screaming, simply accept that the hotlap charts will be under scrutiny.

Personally I haven't made my mind up on whether this is more a good thing or bad, I'm not the slowest or the fastest driver around, but I do put a fair bit of effort into my sets, and for a fairly long time I've only driven sets that I've made from ground up.

Scipy, hope i haven't caused any offesnse with all of this, as i too belive that if you choose not to share a setup that you have put alot of effort into that it should no way be available to copy from a replay.

Im not able to make setups well at all, the only thing i can mess with is tyre compunds and tempratures so usually just try and get one off one of the faster guys and see if i like it, if i don't i move on, i hadn't found an AS3 set i liked up until now, that includes DaveWS's set and many from conedodgers and Rudy Van Buren, but when i drove this set i was blown away by how it fit me to a tea, almost like i made it myself, so i asked if i could have it. If you choose not then i still have to search for it, hopefully not too long.

Thanks.

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

Personally I haven't made my mind up on whether this is more a good thing or bad...

That's pretty much my stance on this whole issue as well.

Spicy sorry to get you worked up (I actually don't know you so it wasn't directed at you or bawbag for that matter, well I lie there a little as I knew if bawbag was involved then I'd likely draw attention which it did sry bawbag :razz

I do think that setup info is a bit too public atm especially as the sim develops further and teams / leagues become a whole lot more serious. But on the other hand LFS has always been pretty open as in sharing setup info to allow others to gain understanding and become more competitive. I peronally don't use LFS often enough to participate in any real league racing or such so it doesn't effect me, but I have thought about the issue.

Do I just go around stealing sets? No not normally. I also have done and are continuely learning as much as I can about the physics of racing but the further I have gone into it I have realised that the limits of the LFS environment means taking slightly different direction in setup building than perhaps would be the case in RL analysing other peoples setups and WR replays allow people to learn better driving and setup building technique more rapidly than if you were purely to do it by trial an error alone. The process of building a good setup would still remain similar to the real world though.

I personally have no real interest in stealing sets other than curiosity to learn to enable better set building in the future. I did this to stir debate on the subject as I did think to myself "if I can determine other peoples competitive advantage with some degree of accuracy it must be happening in teams" I also have a feeling that its possible to get more info with more detailed analysis of the raf files.

I personally think the way to go in the future is to limit the ability to output raf data to your own spr for analysis locking all other spr. But on the other hand I'd also like to see more open information on how lfs works as well though, like say official virtual tyre data, track data and suspension designs. This is data a race engineer would have in real life quite easily but is not so easy to extract from a virtual environment.

I don't see the problem with sharing setups at all. I think it's still down to the quality of the driver to get those extra few tenths or seconds per lap and should be like that always. As far as i'm concerned in LFS it's important to be more of a community than competitors. Obviously in the big leagues like already mentioned it's a whole different ball game, but in terms of hotlaps and public pick up servers the enjoyment is in fighting for the win, not actually winning. I'd much rather battle to first place on the final lap than cruise to victory over 10 laps with like 2 seconds per lap to the guy behind. Thats why whenever i see someone struggling badly in the same car as me i often give them my setup, or even if it's the person thats just beat me.

It is your problem and your personal opinion. It does not have any hold over me or anyone else. In LFS sets might matter even more because, apart from the driver, they are the only thing that separate one car from the other (all drivers in same cars ofcourse). Again, people's ability to produce good setups depend on their driving and objectivity - so your sets (and many other people's) dont have a chance in hell of being anywhere near good enough.

Quote from Glenn67 :

Do I just go around stealing sets? No not normally.

Shame you deleted your work... But from the posts still in place I do not think you have stolen anything in this instance either.

Quite the opposite, your posts are like a very condensed tutorial on how to analyse a car's behaviour (and hence a setup) with the tools available.

You have nothing to apologise for, and from his posts I'm not sure scipy was directing anything at you. Indeed he says himself that anyone without an analytical eye, will not benefit from the sets anyway. My praise goes to you, Glenn67, for helping others develop that analytical eye.

Quote from nihil :

Shame you deleted your work... But from the posts still in place I do not think you have stolen anything in this instance either.

Quite the opposite, your posts are like a very condensed tutorial on how to analyse a car's behaviour (and hence a setup) with the tools available.

You have nothing to apologise for, and from his posts I'm not sure scipy was directing anything at you. Indeed he says himself that anyone without an analytical eye, will not benefit from the sets anyway. My praise goes to you, Glenn67, for helping others develop that analytical eye.

Quote from scipy :

It is your problem and your personal opinion. It does not have any hold over me or anyone else. In LFS sets might matter even more because, apart from the driver, they are the only thing that separate one car from the other (all drivers in same cars ofcourse). Again, people's ability to produce good setups depend on their driving and objectivity - so your sets (and many other people's) dont have a chance in hell of being anywhere near good enough.

Wow I'll certainly remember not to ask you for a set M8

I'll stay down at the bottom of the barrel grovelling for my betters sets (JUST NOT YOURS)

im getting closer to WR

Yeh but then scipy or Ray will just pwn you!

Thats why i dont even bother trying to get them

PS: Are you using the set that shadow was using and he was ALOT faster with or your normal set?

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

Yeh but then scipy or Ray will just pwn you!

Thats why i dont even bother trying to get them

PS: Are you using the set that shadow was using and he was ALOT faster with or your normal set?

my set... shadows too much df