Motorsports has a long history of grave expense and, because of that, often attracting money in preference to talent. It's been something of a bug-bear for the sport generally, but that era is beginning to end.

There are an increasing number of initiatives to seek out, sponsor and nurture genuine motorsports talent. It's a good thing, and it's bound to do good things for the sport. It doesn't mean that people who have money and can fund their own ride won't be able to do so, but the malproportioned rich vs talent balance will be increasingly redressed as newcomers are able to race at higher and higher levels, simply because they are brilliant.

Regardless of how poor the history is, the NEW direction that the sport is headed in is a good one.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

Nobody has an issue with it if the driver has real talent and has earnt it, like Nico Rosberg. But when you see drivers like the Mansell kids (who were lucky to get into the top 10 in most races) getting promoted up the ranks ahead of guys with actual talent, just because of their surname and money, its hard to take for the fans and drivers.

nono its the mansell way. Nigel use to finish at the back all the time when he was in F3 as well.

Quote from JJ72 :

nono its the mansell way. Nigel use to finish at the back all the time when he was in F3 as well.

Oh right, so they save the talent for F1?

but do they have the moustache?

Quote from Shotglass :

of course there arent any... but if you put spoiled kids in f1 cars you sure as heck wont end up with a bunch of gentlemen racers

Name me three 1960s F1 drivers who weren't from a privileged background, and I'll agree with you.

Quote from SamH :

Motorsports has a long history of grave expense and, because of that, often attracting money in preference to talent. It's been something of a bug-bear for the sport generally, but that era is beginning to end.

There are an increasing number of initiatives to seek out, sponsor and nurture genuine motorsports talent. It's a good thing, and it's bound to do good things for the sport. It doesn't mean that people who have money and can fund their own ride won't be able to do so, but the malproportioned rich vs talent balance will be increasingly redressed as newcomers are able to race at higher and higher levels, simply because they are brilliant.

Regardless of how poor the history is, the NEW direction that the sport is headed in is a good one.

No that is totally incorrect and doesn't bare any relation to what is REALLY happening. These new 'initiatives' or 'competitions' are no more than gimmicks in pursuit of advertising income through extra exposure.

it is clear that F1 teams will FIRSTLY look at karting in the hunt for real future talent. And to get to the levels of karting where F1 teams are looking you are looking at around £100,000 a year at the very least. Some of the budgets are mind blowing. People aren't spending this amount of money for fun, they are doing so to get on the stage to show their talents to F1 teams and so on....And if a driver is not picked up in karts, the budgets for single seater car racing is even more intense.

If your not racing in KF3/2/1 in karting, or F Renault/F BMW/F3/World Series/GP2 no F1 team will take you seriously. And that all costs huge amounts of money.

Motorsport will NEVER change in this regard no matter what PR nonsense initiatives come up with. I can't tell you how many times I have seen these things over the years with the tag line 'in pursuit of the next 'insert famous F1 driver here'!

The sport is lacking sponsorship incomes as it struggles with it's 'green' image so a lot of the funding comes from personal finance and teams HAVE to be paid at the end of the day.

And I can assure you these new initiatives RARELY support truly under-funded drivers. To get noticed by these intiatives you HAVE to be in EXPENSIVE classes in the first place!!! It's all PR!

Quote from Leprekaun :

I know that the thread title isn't going to bring friendly faces in but really, I've noticed this a lot around the LFS forum and racing community in general. I mean, sure, you have F1 drivers like Nico Rosberg who had the $ to get into racing from daddy and Hamilton whos Ron's prodigy but really, I find it sick how people have this all-evil gaze or choice of harsh words towards these people. Personally, I don't have anywhere near the amount of money to even start karting. It obviously hurts for any passionate racer that it would seem so easy for some people but that doesn't deny the fact that those drivers are actually good drivers and that they deserve some respect, not contempt.

I personally have no problems with racers who had plenty of money given to them to compete. The fact is, motorsport is extremely expensive and unless you're a millionaire, you are not going to have enough money to race even a full season in Formula Ford without sweating for money from someone - be it sponsors, loans, scholarships, etc.

I'm sure most people here - at least adults - will agree that there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you manage to find even a free crumb, you're one lucky sod.

The only problem I have with racers-with-rich-connections, are the ones who are racing ONLY because of money, without the talent one would expect. If some guy is racing in a brand new F3 car in a well-equipped team with lots of expertise, but are back markers in every race, there is something seriously wrong. That sort of scenario makes me question whether that guy has really earned his place, or just has too much money.

However, we shouldn't confuse those who earned the money, and those who were just given the money. Racers who get picked up by talent scouts get picked because they are noticeably better than their competition. Racers who get the biggest sponsorships are able to provide the best exposure for the sponsoring brand by getting good race results and attracting attention. This is a lot different from just getting handed money for nothing.

Quote from Intrepid :

And I can assure you these new initiatives RARELY support truly under-funded drivers. To get noticed by these intiatives you HAVE to be in EXPENSIVE classes in the first place!!! It's all PR!

While that is true in general, there are exceptions. So be careful when you say "all".

For example, the Confederation of Australian Motorsport and the Australian Institute of Sport (a government-funded coaching institution) run Rising Star programs at both state and national level. You can be picked even if you've only competed in local karting or budget tin-tops. So no, you don't "have to be in expensive classes" for these types of programs. Yes, they cost money obviously, but are relatively inexpensive.

I don't think a driver has to 'earn' his place in any series. Though I personally would like to see series that have enough entries to qualifyers are needed to sort out the main championship grid. You really would have to EARN you place then. As it is grids aren't bigh enough in any classes.

It the same in all motorsport. To many classes causes major fragmentation and a reduction in grid sizes.

Quote from Intrepid :

I don't think a driver has to 'earn' his place in any series.

In my opinion, you do have to earn your place if you are going professional.

Very few people - including professional racing drivers - have the money to pay themselves into a high-level category. And I doubt anyone will give away several $100,000 for someone to compete in F3, national-level touring cars, or national rallies, without the promise of benefits in return.

Sponsors are not stupid. And sponsors will only give big bucks in series which attract large amounts of public exposure: ie. televised races and categories which either appear regularly on the news, or are talked about in automotive circles. You need big money to compete in big money-making categories, and that means you need to prove to your sponsors that you can provide them good results in races, therefore better exposure for their brand.

At the end of the day, professional motorsport is business. So if you want money to race as a professional, you have to deliver results to your clients (ie. sponsors). You'll often find that the most well-funded and best-performing teams on the grid have the most stable sponsorships, while the poorly-funded and poorly-performing teams have sponsors that flit on and off. It's business.

Quote from SamH :

There are an increasing number of initiatives to seek out, sponsor and nurture genuine motorsports talent. It's a good thing, and it's bound to do good things for the sport. It doesn't mean that people who have money and can fund their own ride won't be able to do so, but the malproportioned rich vs talent balance will be increasingly redressed as newcomers are able to race at higher and higher levels, simply because they are brilliant.

Regardless of how poor the history is, the NEW direction that the sport is headed in is a good one.

Yes, but it still costs about a grand to get in to those initiatives doesn't it?!

I know of one, the BARC Starts Of Tomorrow, which gets Karting Kids into cars, but most of those who have come out of that are rich anyway and most of them are just a load of hot air as well.

Motorsport is, and for the forseeable future, will be about making money, its not Motorsport is not a Sport, its a business.

Quote from samjh :

While that is true in general, there are exceptions. So be careful when you say "all".

For example, the Confederation of Australian Motorsport and the Australian Institute of Sport (a government-funded coaching institution) run Rising Star programs at both state and national level. You can be picked even if you've only competed in local karting or budget tin-tops. So no, you don't "have to be in expensive classes" for these types of programs. Yes, they cost money obviously, but are relatively inexpensive.

But they are exceptions that prove the rule. In Australia I think there is about 5000-6000 licensed kart racers, and x amount of young car drivers. These initiatives may find one or two drivers buts its a MINUTE percentage, and does nothing to change the overall picture. Although I like to see real talent flourish !

For 99.99% of drivers its all about either having, or finding huge sums of money to get anywhere near being a pro. For a sport that has so many people participating in it there is VERY FEW true professionals. Someone has to pay for 'Billy' to drive in F3 or whatever.

Quote from samjh :

In my opinion, you do have to earn your place if you are going professional.

Very few people - including professional racing drivers - have the money to pay themselves into a high-level category. And I doubt anyone will give away several $100,000 for someone to compete in F3, national-level touring cars, or national rallies, without the promise of benefits in return.

Sponsors are not stupid. And sponsors will only give big bucks in series which attract large amounts of public exposure: ie. televised races and categories which either appear regularly on the news, or are talked about in automotive circles. You need big money to compete in big money-making categories, and that means you need to prove to your sponsors that you can provide them good results in races, therefore better exposure for their brand.

At the end of the day, professional motorsport is business. So if you want money to race as a professional, you have to deliver results to your clients (ie. sponsors). You'll often find that the most well-funded and best-performing teams on the grid have the most stable sponsorships, while the poorly-funded and poorly-performing teams have sponsors that flit on and off. It's business.

Yes I agree. I should make myself clear. What I mean there was that a driver doesn't have to earn a grid position if he wants to sit on an F3 grid or whatever. If they want to keep the drive of course they have to perform but motorsport no longer requires qualifyers in most classes so there is no need for a driver to 'earn' his place.

Quote from Shotglass :

of course there arent any... but if you put spoiled kids in f1 cars you sure as heck wont end up with a bunch of gentlemen racers

David Coulthard and Nico Rosberg have two of the richest fathers in F1 and yet I would call them decent persons.

Quote from Intrepid :

To get noticed by these intiatives you HAVE to be in EXPENSIVE classes in the first place!!! It's all PR!

That's exactly it. Sponsorship for talent in junior formulas is mostly a myth. There are sponsors but they're not paying for exposure or marketing reasons, people just aren't interested enough in smaller series to make that work. How many people here, on a motorsports based forum, know who the current F3 Euro points leader is? I'd guess less than 5%. So what would be the point of sponsoring half a million € when noone will notice?

The reason sponsors pay is because there are close company/family links or because a guy is so talented that they are speculating on making a profit from his future earnings.

Quote from J.B. :

David Coulthard and Nico Rosberg have two of the richest fathers in F1 and yet I would call them decent persons.

<DC>Och aye - an' if ye didn't I'd beat three colours o' shit outafya. Three. Count 'em. I ken ye won't!</DC>

Everyone loves a working class hero. The Nascar effect. It also explains why so many people hate Jeff Gordon.

Quote from J.B. :

David Coulthard and Nico Rosberg have two of the richest fathers in F1 and yet I would call them decent persons.

I didnt know DC's dad is loaded. What's his source of income?

Quote from PLAYLIFE :

I didnt know DC's dad is loaded. What's his source of income?

A national trucking business.

Quote from durbster :

Name me three 1960s F1 drivers who weren't from a privileged background, and I'll agree with you.

Oh, the good old days!

Seriously, though, the problem with modern day top class racing drivers is not so much the fact that they were loaded from day one, but that they usually are put in a kart the minute they can utter "car". And from then on all they do is race 95% percent of their spare time. So they miss a very important part of growing up. The one where you usually acquire most of your social skills. Hence, by the time they're 16 or 18, they've become total sociopaths.

But motor racing is no real exception there. The problem is just that it's more expensive than most any other sport and therefore people (parents, sponsors etc.) are pushing that much harder to make you the next Schumacher. The investment has to pay off.

Diclaimer: The above statement is a generalization. The author is fully aware that not every highly successfull athlete is a sociopath -- just the majority.

Quote from Linsen :

Oh, the good old days!

Seriously, though, the problem with modern day top class racing drivers is not so much the fact that they were loaded from day one, but that they usually are put in a kart the minute they can utter "car". And from then on all they do is race 95% percent of their spare time. So they miss a very important part of growing up. The one where you usually acquire most of your social skills. Hence, by the time they're 16 or 18, they've become total sociopaths.

But motor racing is no real exception there. The problem is just that it's more expensive than most any other sport and therefore people (parents, sponsors etc.) are pushing that much harder to make you the next Schumacher. The investment has to pay off.

Diclaimer: The above statement is a generalization. The author is fully aware that not every highly successfull athlete is a sociopath -- just the majority.

Miss a very important of growing up? Kids that miss out on racing are the ones missing out on an important bit of growing up.

That is a complete nonsense generalization. Have you actually met and spoke to any of these drivers you speak of? I guess not

Quote from Intrepid :

That is a complete nonsense generalization. Have you actually met and spoke to any of these drivers you speak of?

He's actually right for the most part. I don't know about drivers - but other young professional, or even aspiring professional, athletes I've met for the majority tend to display a deficit in social skills and what is generally perceived as a single-track mind. It's ok if it's their actual choice - no problem with that - but more often than not it isn't. Parents tend to want to pre-program their kids pretty often - whether it's to be a race driver or a doctor.

It's much easier to get a kid enthused about a (motor)sport if it takes a liking to it. However there should be some taming of the enthusiasm until they come of age to make their own choices. Especially with some sports overdoing it can be detrimental to their physical well-being as well as their mental.

And all of the above is not to say that I despise them - I honestly couldn't give a rat's ass what people do with their money or without it.

Quote from xaotik :

He's actually right for the most part. I don't know about drivers - but other young professional, or even aspiring professional, athletes I've met for the majority tend to display a deficit in social skills and what is generally perceived as a single-track mind. It's ok if it's their actual choice - no problem with that - but more often than not it isn't. Parents tend to want to pre-program their kids pretty often - whether it's to be a race driver or a doctor.

You see the same trend with actors, musicians, etc. It's not something specific to athletes or motorsport.

Having said that, I do think the "total sociopaths" comment is a dangerous generalisation, far too broad for my personal liking. Just as there are some very grounded child-actors and so on, there also very grounded athletes and racing drivers too. They're not rare either, it's just they don't get as much media attention as the more sociopathic ones.

Quote from samjh :

You see the same trend with actors, musicians, etc. It's not something specific to athletes or motorsport.

Or even doctors, lawyers, architects, military officers etc. Kids that were channeled from day one just to complete a parent's fantasy of having a kid "up there".

Quote from samjh :

Just as there are some very grounded child-actors and so on, there also very grounded athletes and racing drivers too.

That's where balanced support from the family shines through. I bet their parents don't have their head in the clouds building their perfect kid strictly to their own specifications or feeding it's ego all day long.

Quote from samjh :

They're not rare either, it's just they don't get as much media attention as the more sociopathic ones.

Well, I'm talking from face-to-face interaction with cyclists and track athletes for example that I know. The team I help out with here has a very large division for young kids and I get to see their parents pretty often - some of the stuff they go on about is just plain disheartening.

Its arguable the parents role in the development of a child. I suugest you read 'The Nuture Assumption' before you state things as if they were fact just because TV POP phscycholigists who plagurise other coleagues say so! The debate is VERY much open

If a kid doesn't want to race, there IS NOTHING a parent can do, and if a kid does wanna race all a parent can do is offer support and oppurtunity.

Quote :

Especially with some sports overdoing it can be detrimental to their physical well-being as well as their mental.

I am not sure about that. Some of the SMARTEST perople I know, and some of the FITTEST are young kart drivers. There phsyical abilities are simply astonishing. Most of the egotistical werido's I know are usually the ones who having NOTHING in their lifes

Who says these people who don't have 'social' skills wouldn't have been that way ANYWAY without motorsport...

so many assumptions

Quote from Leprekaun :

I know that the thread title isn't going to bring friendly faces in but really, I've noticed this a lot around the LFS forum and racing community in general. I mean, sure, you have F1 drivers like Nico Rosberg who had the $ to get into racing from daddy and Hamilton whos Ron's prodigy but really, I find it sick how people have this all-evil gaze or choice of harsh words towards these people. Personally, I don't have anywhere near the amount of money to even start karting. It obviously hurts for any passionate racer that it would seem so easy for some people but that doesn't deny the fact that those drivers are actually good drivers and that they deserve some respect, not contempt.

I mean, try and reverse the situation, if YOU had the money and someone else didn't, would you try and just earn money for the "slight" possibility of having enough money to compete or just start off with daddy's money to ensure that you can get into racing pretty much straight away and starting at a younger age, would provide with you a better opportunity of having a professional career in racing. Obviously, the first choice is a lot more noble, theres no question about that but in terms of the actual result, you may never be able to compete because you would be too old to start professionally or just simply run out of $.

At the end of the day, its a matter of whether you prefer to look noble in front of others or if your competitive drive is stronger and want the surest way to get into racing.

Personally, because I've loved racing all my life, I would definitely go for the second option.

if you want it that much get a good Education and a job then you could probally afford it

Even if ur not rich and you have a small budget in racing..
if your that good someone will take you on

Quote from Intrepid :

...

Oh sorry - I had a lapse of reason and thought we were having a serious discussion for a minute. Back to the usual Forumula 1 Posting Championship programming then. Have fun.