Quote from Boris Lozac :

It ain't broke, but there are still major flaws that could have been adressed instead of making it understandable for Asian people, is it my fault that they're not learning freakin' English in schools?

I hope you start learning Chinese today.

Quote from webdigga :

The more languages catered for the better.

True, China and Japan, that's theoretically more than 1 billion of potential LFS players. It can raise LFS devs income rapidly now, but...

Now is the time to do the big things. I can see it, with every new patch and wave of cheers and "thankyou" also comes huge wave of people, who are disappointed with the way LFS has chosen. Yeah, it's mostly the same people, but since every new patch comes out, it's little bit more of them, because they didn't get, what they want and what is important IMHO.

And next patch will decide, if i will stay with LFS or if i'll join Ian, Boris and others.

Until then, i will wait patiently.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

It ain't broke, but there are still major flaws that could have been adressed instead of making it understandable for Asian people, is it my fault that they're not learning freakin' English in schools?
Even if Eric works on a oil rig 12 hours a day or something, half an hour every day or two would've been enough for plenty of new content and refiments in curent graphics...

.... How would you feel if Scawen was working on implementing the Serbian language for the next patch and someone wrote a post, just like yours complaining about why Scawen used his time on freakin' Serbian?

Quote from Boris Lozac :

I was joking, haven't you noticed the smiley It's a good thing, offcourse, there will be more people from Asia, but was it more important then fixing some noticable flaws in physics engine, sound engine, etc?

Obviously for devs it was. No can do.

---

Short, but interesting post from Scawen in the test thread:
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=846945#post846945

I was little disappointed by that...

-

Let's see how big is the peak this time...

http://www.google.pt/trends?q= ... l&date=ytd&sort=0

Patch Y - Dec 2007
Patch Z - July 2008

Quote from hectic :

.... How would you feel if Scawen was working on implementing the Serbian language for the next patch and someone wrote a post, just like yours complaining about why Scawen used his time on freakin' Serbian?

Hey, it's great having Serbian in LFS, i'm even in the credits, but it wasn't like i couldn't live without it
Maybe i WAS too hursh regarding Asian languages, don't know how is their school system working, i know that in Japan you can barely find a keyboard with an English input, etc... so yes, it's great for them... but still... everything about LFS just screams "sloow" As i said, i would hate to have to switch to another sim, i just love LFS so much...

Quote from deggis :

Obviously for devs it was.

You say "obviously" then followed by something that isn't true.

I find that a little interesting, that is the only reason I am quoting your post among all the others. It shows that you don't understand at all how we work. For you to think that is "obvious" implies that you think we always work on the thing that we think is the most important thing that needs to be developed in LFS.

But you are completely wrong. Never did any of us LFS developers say "East Asian support is the most important thing for LFS". That is only in your imagination. What I have said on quite a few occasions is that was something I've always wanted to support and I decided to get some things done on that during my month off in January.

It turned out an interesting and involving task. I'm very pleased with the results and pleased to support something like another 5th of the world's population with this, and the benefits it has for LFS.

I'm quite surprised that some people (just a very small minority) think it is their place to tell me what to do with my time. I don't tell them what to with their time. What I do with my time is up to me! You know, you only have one life and you need to do in it what you want to do. Not follow someone else's rule book.

Like I keep saying, you can speak English. You can't speak Chinese, you can't even guess what any of the characters say - how would you feel if LFS which was only in Chinese suddenly supported Serbian or English?

Anyone else hace a FFB problem with the new patch?

"CreateEffect failed (1 axes)
Could not set up FF steer device"

Quote from richo :

Thanks Guys i appreciate all of your hard work.

The interiors are not what i was expecting after being so long in the making .

Not that i can do any better. Just doent seem like the massive change i was expecting , Eric must have heaps of stuff just waiting to be used

Great to see that I'm not the only one. They're certainly a big improvement over the old interiors.

But I still expected more details, like fx. the air vents modeled and not just plain textures.

The beauty is in the details ..

Quote from Ian.H :

LFS will fall, I'm almost certain of it. It does have huge potential, but alas, by the time we _may_ actually see some of it, there'll be a dozen other _real_ sims (not arcade games with half-decent tyre physics) that'll make LFS look like it was written for a WAP phone.

You've been spouting this statement for the 3 years I've been here. So.... where are these "dozen of other_real_sims" at?

I paid for LFS 3 years ago. I paid once. I haven't paid a monthly fee. I haven't paid for an updated sim every year in the past 3 years. I've paid once, and I've gotten what I paid for, great racing.

I've tried all the other sims with all the "eye candy" and "content". It makes it difficult to race at 5 FPS as opposed to the 90 FPS I get in LFS. I haven't tried iRacing as I can't see the point in spending my retirement fund on computer upgrades and fees to play a computer game. If that's what you want, then go. It is obvious that all you want to do is troll or you wouldn't be here and you would be off playing the "real sims" that you speak of.

Compaining about interiors? Who cares! If you speak of "real sims" then the way you play LFS, you shouldn't even see the interiors anyways. I can't see any of the interiors except for parts of the gauges.

I want a realistic feel, view, and experience, not shiny graphics. I also want the ability to race, not watch a slideshow while my car skids into the walls completely uncontrollable.

Just because LFS gives me what I am looking for, I am a fanboy?

Again, where are these "dozens of real sims" that you've been spouting about for the last 3 years? I guess by your definition, you are a "dozen of (hypothetical) real sims" fanboy as much as I am an LFS fanboy.....

OK, now I have read this thread and rested a little bit to think it over. Now I feel like I have to write down my opinion:

First let me say: I like LFS! It is a great game and the best racing sim so far. There is no other game that is any closer to real-world racing than LFS. And I also like the changes in Patch Z, nice Cockpits and dashboards, nice decent graphic improvements.

On the other hand: I think people are right if they say that the progress is a little bit slow. I am a little bit disappointed that after this long time til´ Patch Z is out there is only some graphics improvements. I mean, who really cares about things like slightly shifted PoGs or weight distribution? 1 % s an amount that the majority of the users will not even notice.

In my opinion there are other things that need some development. For me the game looks good enough and the devs should spend no more development time with it. When you are racing, are you lookin around and say "OMG, what a nice texture on that wall and the tarmac looks so lovely!" ?

Why not letting the people out there create some new dashboards and concentrate on the real thing like improving the game engine and creating cars and tracks? I think many people here would be proud to do some work for this project even without getting money for this.

If LFS would be a hobby of two people who share their sparetime together the development rate is OK. But as a full time project the development rate is a little bit poor. I think the priority should be shifted to bring the game forward. Finetuning (like CoG and those things) can be done later.

Please take this as a fair comment and constructive criticism, because as I said, I like LFS and I like the work that has been done till now.

Quote from Ian.H :

You mean the fact LFS operate as a commercial venture and happily accept people's money, yet work like a half-arsed, lazy, open-source college project?

Maybe if we start to look at LFS as a comercial product, more than "the game we play", it will be easier to understand the choices made in terms of development...
People complain about the time spent on the Asian Translations, but like others already said, that means a huge market that can open for LFS. Besides that we all know that there's a great number of people that use LFS for drifting, and where is Drifting more popular?? Correct me if I´m wrong, but I would say in Asia.
Regarding Patch Z, problably, they could´ve waited a little longer to release all the new interiors at once, but the fact is that the V1 Championship is going to launch this Sunday http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=847110#post847110, which could mean a lot of new people trying the demo. So, updating only the interiors of the cars based on the XFG and XRG (demo cars), means that they will have a better demo to try, and maybe some more licenses sold. Besides that they updated also the interiors of the FOX and F08, wich are other single-seaters apart from the FBM that will be used for V1...
Is this more important than damage and collision improvements or other updates that most of us are allways complaining about?? In terms of bussiness, definitely YES.
So, do I think that the choices made were the best for LFS? I really think so...
Were they the ones that would be better for what I want from LFS? No, surely not...

Quote from gezmoor :

I'm not able to use any buttons on my wheel. For some reason LFS is not picking up the mappings used in the wheel profiler. I've had this issue since Y19. Patch Y worked just fine. Z doesn't.

hmm ok... I've just retested it.. seems ok now. I must have been doing something wrong initially.


The new interiors look much better (for the ones I've seen so far). The XFG and XRG look much more like road cars now, which is what they are. XFG seem to handle more like a road car too, (though that could be my imagination). I must admit though that the "air bag" on the new wheels does look a little odd. But I'm guessing its' not supposed to be an air bag?? given the era of the car.

Are the Rename and Delete options on the replays' screen removed in patch Z? If so, was a particular reason for it? They were pretty useful!

Quote from gezmoor :

But I'm guessing its' not supposed to be an air bag?? given the era of the car.

Me think those are just extra paddings.

Quote from danowat :

It's a tough one really, they don't "owe" us anything, we paid a very small amount for a continually developing product.

....

Huh? Just a response, (in general not specifically to scawen et al), to that statment.

You pay someone for something. They owe you. Simple. The payments made by all the license holders of LFS are keeping the devs in a living, (at least in part). You really honestly believe that if someone is funding your house, food, childrens schools etc you owe them nothing in return??

As individuals, all the license holders may have paid a relatively small amount of money, (not small for everyone though), and the game may well be "in development" but statments of "as is" just don't cut it as a get out when there is clearly a promise of development. In life, and in business especially, if you make a promise to people, (especially those that have paid money to help you meet that promise), those people have a right to expect a reasonable effort on your part to meet that promise. In fact on a legal basis they can very well demand it. A contract can be established in many ways and a promise to develop a product with the money that is paid for that reason is just as contractually binding should it be made on a forum as it would be if it were on paper with signatories and witnesses etc.

Legally speaking to take money off people on the promise (read contractual obligation) of product development and then not to develop said product is tantamount to fraud. Which in case anyone isn't clear about it is a criminal offense.

Now, I am no way implying that the LFS devs are doing any such thing, but let's just put this naieve argument that because we've paid peanuts and LFS is "in development" and sold "as is" that the devs don't owe their paying customers anything. In fact it is exactly because it's "in development" and not a finished product that they do ! They've taken the money to develop LFS so now they are obligated (legaly and moraly) to develop it.

No, you are wrong, you paid for the piece of software in it's current state when you brought it, you did not pay £24 for countless free updates.

I would also like to see where this PROMISE of continual free updates is too.........

This is why I never want to become a game developer.

When I purchased S1 and S2 and I knew what I was getting. I'm damn happy with my purchase. All these incremental updates are just icing on the cake.

Maybe I'm just a gullible sheep and I'm victim to the evil devs that have stolen $50 USD from me over the course of 6 years (oh noes!).

Quote from gezmoor :

Now, I am no way implying that the LFS devs are doing any such thing, but let's just put this naieve argument that because we've paid peanuts and LFS is "in development" and sold "as is" that the devs don't owe their paying customers anything. In fact it is exactly because it's "in development" and not a finished product that they do ! They've taken the money to develop LFS so now they are obligated (legaly and moraly) to develop it.

And are we obligated legally and morally to add free cars and additional content, as we do?

I know you have worded your post not to be attacking us, but it is quite hilarious how many people (although I am aware it is a small minority and ther are plenty of patient people out there who respect our methods, even if things take a long time) have appeared and are attacking us (only with words of course) on the actual thread announcing many new developments, and a few days after a clear statement from me about what we consider most important for development in the near future.

Nothing more could we do than that, other than work twice as hard but as I've pointed out before, sleep is required in order to remain alive. No way am I morally obligated to work more than the 270 hours I did last month, and no way am I morally or legally obligated to hire additional staff when the only thing we have promised, is development to S2 stage, with clearly stated goals, that we are gradually getting nearer to achieving. Working the way we want to do, which we are happy doing, and is the reason for LFS's existence.

The standard keeps getting higher, many new unplanned features are added, and that is why things take longer than planned. You've got most of what I have done but there are some things on Eric's hard drive awaiting completion, and you'll get them when they are done. It's easier to release a half-baked code feature that works, but you can't release a track with some hills you can see under and cars with holes in them.

Anyone who thinks we should do better in a shorter time should present to us all their work that proves their point. Anyone who says we should change our way of working and turn LFS into a company with employees, I have a very short phrase for them but can't say it on a public forum.

Quote from danowat :

I would also like to see where this PROMISE of continual free updates is too.........

While not precisely promise, still an indication that you're buying a permition to use WIP product is stated in the Licence Agreement. No word on countless updates though

EULA
1.4 You must be aware that we can alter any aspect of LFS as we see fit. Improvements, fixes and/or changes made to the game, are to be expected.

Quote from TV[cz] :

While not precisely promise, still an indication that you're buying a WIP product is stated in the Licence Agreement. No word on countless updates though

EULA
1.4 You must be aware that we can alter any aspect of LFS as we see fit. Improvements, fixes and/or changes made to the game, are to be expected.

as far as i can see this being done, Updates are being done.

What i would like to see is where anything says that all the updates / improvements will be done in a specific way and to a USERS time frame? or to any time frame in fact.

Updates and improvements ARE happening. The EULA is being kept to. there are NO other points anywhere that states how long said updates may take and / or what will be included (plenty of speculation and hints, but no facts) and this is the main point that some people are saying. When there are no promises that all updates will be completed when they click their fingers.

On another note: Well done on getting that Patch Z out.

Nothing has EVER been PROMISED, FACT.

@ Scawen,

I must commend the way you handle the hoards here, I really don't think I would have your calm manner if I were in your position, I'd wanna bust some heads!!!

I can see how this EULA section is poorly worded, as you clearly misunderstood it for the opposite it means. What it says is that you shouldn't be surprised if features in LFS change from how they were when you bought it, not that you can expect a constant lifetime stream of free updates. It would be very stupid to promise something like this, and the section is clearly not meant as such.

Quote from Scawen :

And are we obligated legally and morally to add free cars and additional content, as we do?

I know you have worded your post not to be attacking us, but it is quite hilarious how many people (although I am aware it is a small minority and ther are plenty of patient people out there who respect our methods, even if things take a long time) have appeared and are attacking us (only with words of course) on the actual thread announcing many new developments, and a few days after a clear statement from me about what we consider most important for development in the near future.

Nothing more could we do than that, other than work twice as hard but as I've pointed out before, sleep is required in order to remain alive. No way am I morally obligated to work more than the 270 hours I did last month, and no way am I morally or legally obligated to hire additional staff when the only thing we have promised, is development to S2 stage, with clearly stated goals, that we are gradually getting nearer to achieving. Working the way we want to do, which we are happy doing, and is the reason for LFS's existence.

The standard keeps getting higher, many new unplanned features are added, and that is why things take longer than planned. You've got most of what I have done but there are some things on Eric's hard drive awaiting completion, and you'll get them when they are done. It's easier to release a half-baked code feature that works, but you can't release a track with some hills you can see under and cars with holes in them.

Anyone who thinks we should do better in a shorter time should present to us all their work that proves their point. Anyone who says we should change our way of working and turn LFS into a company with employees, I have a very short phrase for them but can't say it on a public forum.

Scawen,

With the utmost respect, I am purely pointing out the care that needs to be taken by someone in your position so as not to find yourself in sticky situations. As I stated there are several ways in which one can inadvertently enter themselves in to binding contracts. Concepts of "free" in one persons mind may well not be considered so under certain circumstances by a judge for example.

On a personal level I am happy with what I paid for, but I know enough about contract law to know it's never as black and white as it would appear and urge caution with regards to things said on public forums etc.