Guys, I figured out why people buy rFactor, now can you please stop going so off-topic .I sugest you make another thread called "General rFactor discussions" if you want to continue.

Haha, this is ridiculous.

You make a stupidly biased poll about rFactor, then there is an actual discussion about rFactor and now you complain about off-topic posts.

I bought rfactor because it is very very very very very very very good.

But the blinded LFS fanboys won't tell you that, so you really have to ignore their 'recommendations'. Most of them have never given it a fair unbiased chance.

LFS is boring me right now, mainly because the tracks are over-used and there's only so much fun you can get out of being flung into space after the slightest of touches with another car.

rfactor in a community environment gives some of the best, most fun and closest racing while still being a realitic sim with real cars and real tracks.

And here's the killer... once you get bored of 1 mod, you download another to the server - and the community downloads the same mod too, and you can have loads of fun all over again! It's like 100s of games in one!

Quote from mr_x :

And here's the killer... once you get bored of 1 mod, you download another to the server - and the community downloads the same mod too, and you can have loads of fun all over again! It's like 100s of games in one!

Well if I new rFactor existed before I bought GTR2, I would have bought it instead just because of that strong point.

Techade: Thanks for the tyre temp info. I was looking long time for it!

ajp71: Regarding Edwards, I seriously doubt that he doesn't know how rfactor treats physics! He's an rfactor... alien!

http://www.f1rst3.com/bmw/
http://www.f1rst3.com/lupo/
http://www.f1rst3.com/megane/
http://www.f1rst3.com/megane/2006/
http://www.f1rst3.com/pcc/2006/
http://www.f1rst3.com/pcc/

And I'm pretty sure he's setting up his rf cars by himself

Plenty of aliens who wouldn't mind driving a mod with tyres that are impossbile.. He's very good, both real and virtual, agreed, but that doesn't mean that a mod is realistic when he plays it.

That seems to be very hard to grasp for simracers who often think real racers are gods!

Quote from Niels Heusinkveld :

Plenty of aliens who wouldn't mind driving a mod with tyres that are impossbile.. He's very good, both real and virtual, agreed, but that doesn't mean that a mod is realistic when he plays it.

That seems to be very hard to grasp for simracers who often think real racers are gods!

Niels, please give me some credit here! I never said he is a god! All I said was he's the only rl driver I know who has proven in the long term he knows what he is doing in both rfactor and real life pcc and he was involved in the development of PCC FRance mod, which I also happen to enjoy driving (regardless its flaws).

Anyway, the dicussion got a bit twisted from suggested rf mods to sean edwards ability or not to judge a mod's handling... which is off topic I think.
No more Sean Edwards from me here

PS. LFS patch Z will keep me busy for a while

Well, I've had more success than yesterday

The issues from yesterday are'nt fixed, but i've got the 2005 F1 mod which is fun

I enjoy pwnting the AI around the Jacksonville speedway - they seem to use a crap set lol

I've just had a go with the mod around the Orchard Lake Speedway - got pole easily, but my engine isn't really very happy when it comes to the race - ive got it on the limiter the whole way round and i can't complete a lap before it blows lol

I've d/led the Megane mod - doesn't work

I'm also gonna try tomoz the Nordschleife that I've just got, aswell as the F1 79 and ChampCar mods, and maybe the V8 Supercar mod

Grab the BMW E21 320i and Niels Corvette.

Quote from ajp71 :

You're clearly not used to old 911s then, yes they can be tricky to drive and do have plenty of lift off oversteer and will bite if you try and throw them about but they are a joy to drive when you've got the hang of them. You are probably also using an unrealistically low steering ratio which makes them much more sensitive.

Picture this: 150 kph, on a very very very light turn, like a highway sloooooowly smoooothly turning. You are far far away from the grip limit, very safe...german autobahn. 5th gear, a bit more than half throttle.

Then your exit lane is not far anymore. You lift the throttle to slow down...and you are dead, because you forgot opposite lock. Haha. Opposite lock at 150 kph on highway. Are you sure? Is it not a tad too sensitive even for old 911s ?

And not all 911s from historix mod have this lift off oversteer. Why? And these 911s with lift off oversteer are almost unable to oversteer pushing throttle. Why? People are satisfied because it looks like 911 and sounds like 911. I can't help seeing what feels weird sorry.

Anyway, I am not a LFS fanboy. Most people will realise how wrong tyre model is in rFactor (and FFB in Simbin sims) when they try a new generation sim. iRacing, updated nkpro, and I hope Blimey sims will be good too. I think historix mod is a very good mod, and gets the best out of rFactor tyre model. But of course they can not solve the tyre model flaws.

New sims have a more stable tyre model. Small driving mistakes do not lead to catastrophic events like a total loss of grip, but simply lead to a loss of speed, different trajectory...etc. The tyre itself will handle small mistakes through flex, twist...etc.You have to make stronger mistake to reach the diverging area.

Old sims tyre models have a narrower stable area. With a very little mistake you reach the diverging area and you can't recover.

If you move quickly your wheel on a highway and come back quickly to center, the tyres contact patch will twist and absorb the entire move, and the car trajectory will not be changed at all (a friend car mechanic engineer show me that). And this is even more true with old tyres like these 911 had.
Try this in rfactor or a Simbin sim and you will understand that tyre models they use is unstable, diverging. The older the sim, the more unforgiving the tyres.

Quote from Juls :

Picture this: 150 kph, on a very very very light turn, like a highway sloooooowly smoooothly turning. You are far far away from the grip limit, very safe...german autobahn. 5th gear, a bit more than half throttle.

Then your exit lane is not far anymore. You lift the throttle to slow down...and you are dead, because you forgot opposite lock. Haha. Opposite lock at 150 kph on highway. Are you sure? Is it not a tad too sensitive even for old 911s ?

Far from the grip limit at low revs in 5th gear that won't happen (talking about the GTC76 porsches (2.4 / 2.8 /3.0). Before you know it in a sim you're at 80% of the limit, its easy to mis interpret!

Quote :

And not all 911s from historix mod have this lift off oversteer. Why?

Depends; the 2.0 (GTC65 class) was build by another physics man, I did the GTC76 porsches. Plus, there is a considerable difference in the GTC76 versions. There are:
- 2.4 , rear aero lift, good power to weight, skinnier less grippy tyres.
- 2.8 (all 2.8s are the same in the mod), radial slicks, more grip, less rear lift
- 3.0 even wider tyres at the back, and almost neutral or even a few kg of downforce at the back

The 3.0 should have the least lift off oversteer issues, the 2.4 is quite scary and you have to be really wary of it indeed. I find I have to be pretty abrupt in the 3.0 to get real lift off oversteer.

Quote :

And these 911s with lift off oversteer are almost unable to oversteer pushing throttle. Why?

Power oversteer depends much on how you drive them. Purely going straight there is too much weight and too much grip and not enough power to really spin the wheels in anything else but 1st gear. Its when you combine the power with smooth weight transfer (cornering) when you .. well I at least, do find subtle 'steering by power', or worse if you throw the weight around a bit more violently.

Sure, rFactor is limited in the core physics, like LFS is limited but in a different way. I wouldn't say the cars handle extremely realistically as some areas are simply not in our control.

The ''problems'' some people have with their handling is in part due to this, but perhaps in part not giving it enough time to get used to it. And of course a few things could still be sub optimal in the numbers used.

Its weird though that some can 4 wheel ''drift'' (that word lost all its pure meaning eh..) through the corners in full control of the slight slide and some go from extreme understeer to deadly oversteer. Such a difference in the way we all drive sims!

Yes, concerning this lift off issue, the 3.0 was the best for me. Do not misunderstand me. This mod is great and you did an awsome work.

I just think there is a problem with physics models in sims. Developers sometimes seem to think realistic means unforgiving. Because of that, catastrophic events like spin are too frequent in sims, and driving sims fast often means "finding the way to drive fast without spinning", whereas in reality it is more a question about proper trajectory, timing...etc.

I do not know if I manage to explain well. In real racing, spinning and crashing is far less present, and even at very high speed there is still a large choice of trajectories, possibilities, because tyres are more forgiving.
Punishment for a small mistake is a slight slide, loss of speed, wrong trajectory...and less frequently a spin or crash. It makes racing more enjoyable. (of couse we tend to go faster in sims but going slower does not solve the problem)

Recently there was another mod inspired by your work, the new version of caterham. It seems the author has worked a lot on the tyres curves using your tools and I enjoy it very much. It manages to give this large choice of possibilities even at high speed, like iRacing (from videos I have seen). For me this is the way to go.

(Yesterday I saw the curve of friction vs slip angle of a real tyre...after the peak, it just falls less than 10% and then remains flat! Self aligning torque falls, but certainly not friction...so many sims get this wrong)

Quote from Juls :

Yes, concerning this lift off issue, the 3.0 was the best for me. Do not misunderstand me. This mod is great and you did an awsome work.

Thanks!

Quote :

I just think there is a problem with physics models in sims. Developers sometimes seem to think realistic means unforgiving. Because of that, catastrophic events like spin are too frequent in sims, and driving sims fast often means "finding the way to drive fast without spinning", whereas in reality it is more a question about proper trajectory, timing...etc.

I absolutely agree.. The problem is that mods are made by people who have an idea how a car should handle and they tweak and notepad until they think the car handles like how they think it should (uhhh yeah.). Very subjective. While there is always some subjective aspect in the car setup, the main weights and tyre properties can only be slightly subjective; most of their main handling properties are known, or at least close enough.

Quote :

I do not know if I manage to explain well. In real racing, spinning and crashing is far less present, and even at very high speed there is still a large choice of trajectories, possibilities, because tyres are more forgiving.
Punishment for a small mistake is a slight slide, loss of speed, wrong trajectory...and less frequently a spin or crash. It makes racing more enjoyable. (of couse we tend to go faster in sims but going slower does not solve the problem)

Absolutely. The ''weird'' thing is, some find the Historix cars to be just like this: Push hard, silde around, but plenty of margin to stop you from crashing, but some have trouble keeping the car on the road when they start to push it. Perhaps the physics engine 'faults' make it harder to get a feel for the limit. There are certainly enough clues to make the driver aware of a possible problem in the very near future, but it appears that some find it hard to 'see' this.

It doesn't have to be simracing skills, it could be the still somewhat 'narrow edge' physics which they are by nature. Skill is always a part of it; there are those who struggle to go sub 10 minutes, some sub 9 minutes and some sub 8 minutes in Grand Prix Legends at the Nurburgring. A great example just how big the variety is between simracers.

Certain driving styles you can get away with in some sims might not apply to ''better'' rFactor mods, or at least not in the same way that you are used to. I for example can't understand how people can drive GTR1 and GTR2 as all logic simply doesn't apply and I'm left struggling. With the Historix I find the limit by going slightly over it and this can happen lap after lap. It is natural to me whereas to others, GTR1 is more natural.

All that stuff is subjective though and as said, those Historix are made along ''as objective as possible'' lines, so the handling is only in part the result of how I think the cars should handle. Its mostly the result of a collection of very reasonable tyres, aero, engines and car setup. Though the variety you can get within these reasonable limits is still pretty large.

Quote :

Recently there was another mod inspired by your work, the new version of caterham. It seems the author has worked a lot on the tyres curves using your tools and I enjoy it very much. It manages to give this large choice of possibilities even at high speed, like iRacing (from videos I have seen). For me this is the way to go.

Yeah was nice to see some of my (admittedly dated) tyre tools being used! The peak slip is a bit much though iirc (11 degrees) but I'm glad they're convincingly drivable for most!.

Quote :

(Yesterday I saw the curve of friction vs slip angle of a real tyre...after the peak, it just falls less than 10% and then remains flat! Self aligning torque falls, but certainly not friction...so many sims get this wrong)

Yup .. can you post that data perhaps? Always good to see more of it

rfactor's tyre model is known to be inferior to that of lfs, but it is not that bad as it may seem at first. As Niels already said and depending on the mod, it takes a little bit of time to get used to it. Once you do, you can have some real fun! For a start, try to turn-in earlier than you are used to by lfs

Quote from Niels Heusinkveld :

Thanks!
Yup .. can you post that data perhaps? Always good to see more of it

Found it in the browser history!
It is a curve in a ppt presentation from Michigan University.
http://www.mae.wmich.edu/facul ... ture%2003-Tires%20pJZ.ppt

Page 8. It shows tyre friction coefficient for slip percentage. I suppose slip percentage is tan(slip angle)...15% slip percentage 0.15m sideway for 1 meter straight->8.5 degrees of slip angle. It goes quite far...15 degrees slip or more, and there is not this infamous friction coefficient drop you can feel in most sims. The drop looks like 5% of the peak value, no more.
I know cornering force drops, but FFB should not drop a lot because the main force friction stays very important and we can feel this strong force through caster.

And intuitively it is correct. If you push a block of rubber on a concrete plane, it will stick very well and then start moving, with a huge drop of friction coefficient. A tyre is different...whatever it does, a part of the contact patch is sliding...so even in straight line or very little slip angle, it already has partially the same behavior than a slipping block of rubber. Hence friction coefficient peak is lower, and after there is less drop.

edit: my mistake, this curve does not concern at all lateral behavior, but longitudinal slip! But the same intuitive thinking applies
I should sleep more! Lateral force is later in the document but unfortunately curves do not go a lot further than the peak.

Finally, there is one interesting chart in this doc. Page 20 it shows lateral force vs slip angle, up to 16 degrees
And it shows several times this curve for different acceleration and braking slip ratios!
And there is almost no drop after the peak!!!!! Even less than longitudinal force! Whatever acceleration or braking conditions!
Haha, knew I did not dream! ISI default FFB setup is absolutely wrong when it removes all FFB as soon as you lose grip.

I do indeed have the Corvette mod and its great

Quote from Juls :

[snip]
Haha, knew I did not dream! ISI default FFB setup is absolutely wrong when it removes all FFB as soon as you lose grip.

The ffb is weakening when you loose grip under heavy understeering, as it should. But the default ISI values exaggerate very much on this effect! Fortunately, you can change it in the controller.ini file.

Quote from Juls :

Found it in the browser history!
It is a curve in a ppt presentation from Michigan University.
http://www.mae.wmich.edu/facul ... ture%2003-Tires%20pJZ.ppt

Thanks! Some charts there that I haven't seen yet, some come from popular websites (which comes from popular books probably ) cool stuff.

Force feedback is 'there' for a few reasons, tyre self alligning torque is only one of them. What feels like a pure self alligning torque based FF is GPL if you happen to have that installed and use a lowish max torque in the INI.

Suspension geometry (trail, caster) can add so much more force to the steering rack that you almost don't feel the pure aligning torque anymore. As usual, it all depends!

I'm quite amazed people think rFactor looks better than LFS. I have both and I hate rFactor's graphics engine, it's bloody awful. It is good fun however, and just about up with LFS on the physics side when you get one of the better mods.

The online code is door-bangingly excellent if you can get round the hosting pains.

And it sounds better than any other sim.

And it has the Nurburgring.

And this thread is ridiculous.

LOL and people call me a fanboy. some of you guys are ridiculous.

Quote from durbster :

I'm quite amazed people think rFactor looks better than LFS. I have both and I hate rFactor's graphics engine, it's bloody awful. It is good fun however, and just about up with LFS on the physics side when you get one of the better mods.

The online code is door-bangingly excellent if you can get round the hosting pains. +1

And it sounds better than any other sim. +0

And it has the Nurburgring. +2

And this thread is ridiculous. +10

look at videos on youtube, rFactor looks very fake.
it doesnt live, if you know what i mean

I tried the demo and I think it feels much better then GTR2. That complete loss of FFB on understeering is really not that exagerated in rFactor compared to GTR2 so it's ok.

Quote from evilpimp :

I tried the demo and I think it feels much better then GTR2. That complete loss of FFB on understeering is really not that exagerated in rFactor compared to GTR2 so it's ok.

The FFB in rfactor really depends on the mod you are playing and the values in configuration files. Some are better than others. Some mods use Realfeel plugin that really enhances the FFB experience, like the new Historic mod

just download the Real feel plugin... and the one that comes with the HGTCC mod is even better configured (at least i felt a difference)

they buy Rfactor, because they don't know LFS