ReportID:
14

Driver Name:
[SCVE]Red

LFS Licence Name:
redexplosion

Team Name:
SCV Exotics

Report Type:
Penalty Appeal

Evidence By:
[SCVE]Red

Report Details:
This is an appeal as to the end of race points deduction due to lack of following end race procedure.

Supporting Evidence:
First and foremost, this report is inconsistent in the simple fact that it warns me for the first offense, and then penalizes me for the next even though no new information was supplied to me in between the time of the two offenses. If you are going to give me a warning for something in order to inform me, then you shouldn't then penalize me before that warning is issued.

Secondly, I present the IGTC's rules.

"8) A race ends when the leader crosses the start/finish line after the 4-hour mark. Drivers must continue driving until the yellow FINISHED text is displayed at the top of the screen. Failure to do so will result in a DNF.

8.1) After completing the race, drivers should follow the SC queue back to the pit lane and park in a pit stall. The podium finishers must assemble at the start-finish line for a podium shot."

The after race procedure is clearly spelled out and is not thrown at the racer while they are in the car in a race. In addition, when presented with the fact that I must be on the podium post haste, I used to most expedient way to get there in trying to follow the race directors instructions. The race track was not open as the report deems as there are no cars in a race and there is a podium ceremony at the start finish line.

That is almost definitively a closed track. For real life evidence I direct you to the Monaco GP, where the podium session takes place on the down hill straight to the hairpins. When the podium ceremony is going on there is a red light on the track. If you are going to use this as the reason to penalize me then I must insist you penalize dbpFlip for todays race as he too reversed on the grid to correct his podium finish. This one is a no brainer.

You guys shafted me on race one when stoney forced me off in turn 3 even after i gave him room, and I accepted it and took my warning, even though I should be a position up (and on the podium). You shafted me on flip's ridiculous challenge in turn one in which the only possible outcome was flip running wide, and I took that penalty. The least you could do after those two (horrendous in my opinion) decisions, is give me 6 hard earned points back and a pole position due to a lack of information passing.

Date of Report:
Jul 3rd, 10:16 PM

Report above was submitted to RaceAlliance at the time stated in the report. There are several points i'd like to comment upon. And I do so within my capacity of Race Director NOT as anything officially to do with RaceAlliance.

Any driver in the series is encouraged to comment also.

As Race Director, I wrote the rules and regulations for the series. To this end, I feel I must point out the following:

1) IGTC Rules and Regulations do not apply in the case of the F504 FormulaBMW league. They have no official standing in any league other than their own series. I understand the comparison, but still, they have no meaning to me.

The main difference is:

The F504 Races DO NOT end when the the leader crosses the start/finish line. The races end when the last person has crossed the start/finish line, and All drivers are presented with a message to inform of the end of the race. The Session end countdown is also there to inform drivers that they are still under racing conditions till that session ends.

Your actions at the end of the Second race of the Third round of the series which saw you driving WD down the track.. were to me (as race director) unacceptable. It showed me a general disregard for the direction of the track. The quickest acceptable way of taking your place on the "podum" would have been to calmly exit the pitlane in the correct direction, and to have completed a lap of the circuit in the correct direction.

In the event of the track being closed or under red, there would be a clearly displayed "Red Flag" button on the bottom of your screen, which you may have seen during some system tests.

None of this btw has ever been a secret or kept from drivers. All drivers who attended the first session of the series were either told or briefed during that first time out. Im sorry that you wasnt able to attend those sessions.

If there are reports to be taken a look at, im positive RaceAlliance will do so, but generally, it is not your responsibility to tell anyone to penalize another. You can offer opinion, but RaceAlliance will make any final decisions. Each case is looked at case by case, as im sure would be expected.

Quote :

You guys shafted me on race one when stoney forced me off in turn 3 even after i gave him room, and I accepted it and took my warning, even though I should be a position up (and on the podium). You shafted me on flip's ridiculous challenge in turn one in which the only possible outcome was flip running wide, and I took that penalty. The least you could do after those two (horrendous in my opinion) decisions, is give me 6 hard earned points back and a pole position due to a lack of information passing.

Firstly, I love the personalization of the "you guys" thats really sweet. Secondly, there appears to be some inconsistancy in your description of things there.

Be careful how you write things Red, people may get the wrong impression of you, or through your actions, others.

In your Counter Report of that situation you stated:

Quote :

He runs wide and makes contact with me and I lose the position.

Yet in this one, you have changed your mind and stated:

Quote :

You guys shafted me on race one when stoney forced me off in turn 3 even after i gave him room,

Regardless of that, I notice generally, you're unwillingness to accept or even start to accept some fault. You say "flip's ridiculous challenge in turn one in which the only possible outcome was flip running wide,"

What would the outcome have been if you had have given flip some room rather than giving him the options of backing off or running down the grass?

We will never know.

Hey Ho! Just my thoughts on this report.

Quote from mkinnov8 :

You shafted me on flip's ridiculous challenge in turn one in which the only possible outcome was flip running wide, and I took that penalty.

WTF are you talking about?! Have you ever watched the replay? You clearly have no idea of what racing is about! In my opinion, your behavior on track and here qualifies you as some lower form of life, not even worth the time it took me to read your bullshit and write this reply.

Red, these type of report systems are set-up to provide a fair way in which to resolve issues without the need for a slanging match on the track. If the claims against you have been upheld, then I would suggest you look at where YOU went wrong. Take it on the chin like a man and stop trying to explain your errors away. For example, you comments on Monaco are pointless. F1 drivers NEVER Wrong Way Drive and even if they did, thats FIA F1 and this is Formula500 LFS. In entering this league you accept the terms under which it is run.

And just so you are clear on my opinion, your actions on the track are sometimes very close to what COULD be considered deliberate wrecking.

Haha, well apparently I need to do more explaining.

Quote :

The F504 Races DO NOT end when the the leader crosses the start/finish line. The races end when the last person has crossed the start/finish line, and All drivers are presented with a message to inform of the end of the race. The Session end countdown is also there to inform drivers that they are still under racing conditions till that session ends.

Apparently I didn't get all of what I wanted to say in here. IGTC is the top series in the land of LFS. They have a huge rule list because they want everything to have a clear and definitve place in the rules in order to make everyone happy. If I had read the rules the first day, which I did, and it stated end of race procedures we wouldn't be having this problem. I bring up IGTC because they are a great example of how to run a series.

Quote :

None of this btw has ever been a secret or kept from drivers. All drivers who attended the first session of the series were either told or briefed during that first time out. Im sorry that you wasnt able to attend those sessions.

I attended the first session and was never told nor briefed of end race procedures. I was just asked if I had read the rules (ironic). That race, I speced out after the race was over. No one had a problem. No one mentioned it. Then when I make it to the podium I do the same thing and it becomes an issue. I don't sit around after the race looking at cars. I'm adjusting the setup. I don't have a lot of time in the week to practice so that is why my first race is usually my worst. So I miss a lot of the post race stuff for the first race. I think Stoney, that you really misrepresent my position on this. I think you feel like you told me about end race procedure. You didn't. Now I know, and I follow that procedure. I'm not a rule breaker by nature.

Quote :

f there are reports to be taken a look at, im positive RaceAlliance will do so, but generally, it is not your responsibility to tell anyone to penalize another. You can offer opinion, but RaceAlliance will make any final decisions. Each case is looked at case by case, as im sure would be expected

Anything I write is my opinion, unless I give a source.

Quote :

Firstly, I love the personalization of the "you guys" thats really sweet. Secondly, there appears to be some inconsistancy in your description of things there.

It's really simple. Name removed (edit: sorry!) (Stoney) owns racealliance.com. Thats you guys (drivenbypassion). This is by nature a conflict of interest. The fact that you keep the ajudicators anonymous is ever MORE suspect. It's very much like Dick Cheney and Haliburton. He doesn't own any part of the company right now but people still think he is getting something because he used to be the CEO. In this case, this is such a massive conflict of interest and it is so easily solved by using a mediation service that is completely unrelated to dbp or racesim or you. As for you (Stoney) saying in a previous post that you just own the site and that its an ex-racer judging staff; I just don't believe you.

Quote :

In your Counter Report of that situation you stated:


Quote:
He runs wide and makes contact with me and I lose the position.

Yet in this one, you have changed your mind and stated:


Quote:
You guys shafted me on race one when stoney forced me off in turn 3 even after i gave him room,

How is this inconsistent. I can give room to someone who runs wide and forces me off. The simple truth of this one is that Stoney went in too hot. He had a good jump on me after the chicane I came out of a slid in the middle of the race track and stoney went to the inside. I used my one blocking maneuver and kept him on the inside. We ran close. There was contact initially (my fault) there was contact again at the kink in the straight (no ones fault due to the fact that I held in the middle of the track and Stoney thought I was going to head to the outside). We reached the braking zone of turn 3 and Stoney moved back in behind me and we started breaking. I started breaking earlier at this point because I thought Stoney was still on the inside going for the pass. I was planning on doing the old under over move if he got ahead. When I started to brake Stoney took the opportunity for the pass and moved for the inside. We both apex with no problem but on the way out Stoney understeers due to excess speed and he pushes me wide. On the whole it was a great passing attempt and it was exciting to watch even on the replay. Had it been cleanly done I'm sure Stoney could use it to pick up girls because it was so sexy. The fact remains though, that Stoney had room to make the pass, but just didn't brake enough.

Quote :

Regardless of that, I notice generally, you're unwillingness to accept or even start to accept some fault. You say "flip's ridiculous challenge in turn one in which the only possible outcome was flip running wide,"

What would the outcome have been if you had have given flip some room rather than giving him the options of backing off or running down the grass?

We will never know.

Quote :

WTF are you talking about?! Have you ever watched the replay? You clearly have no idea of what racing is about! In my opinion, your behavior on track and here qualifies you as some lower form of life, not even worth the time it took me to read your bullshit and write this reply.

I can sympithize with you on this Flip. You really think that pass is a pass. You tried another very similiar "pass" in yesterday's race. My opinion on it is this: stop trying to set yourself up on the outside of turns that are a world away.

Flip you catch a draft on me at the start. You go way into the pit exit zone thats technically off track. You make contact with me. I see you and wonder what you are trying to do out there. I keep driving. You push to get side by side but never really do. You run out of pit exit paved area and you have grass ahead of you. You make a split second desicion to jump back on the track. Your front right tire contacts my back left. You go off. Then ironically you never even think about hitting your brakes until you are into the cone things at pit out. You are still going for it. If you had tried to correct you might not have lost a position at all.

Lets say there was room for you on the outside. You and I would have gone into turns one and two at which point you either would be off the track at the exit of one or just barely holding on. Then you have a choice in 2 to set for three. You either brake before 2 inorder to get a good run at the straight after 3 or you throw caution to the wind and try and complete the pass before you enter 3. If you brake before 2 I get ahead of you for 3 and its a fight down the straight to pass in turn 4. If you go for it you either run into the tires at apex of 3 or I just repass you on the outside because my jump is so much better than yours. That is what would have happened.

In regards to yesterdays race, I tried to give you room. I still don't understand why would try and make that pass at the narrowest point on the track. We will see whats going on when that replay comes out.

As for my being a "lower form of life", think what you want. Racing isn't personal.

Quote :

Red, these type of report systems are set-up to provide a fair way in which to resolve issues without the need for a slanging match on the track. If the claims against you have been upheld, then I would suggest you look at where YOU went wrong. Take it on the chin like a man and stop trying to explain your errors away. For example, you comments on Monaco are pointless. F1 drivers NEVER Wrong Way Drive and even if they did, thats FIA F1 and this is Formula500 LFS. In entering this league you accept the terms under which it is run.

And just so you are clear on my opinion, your actions on the track are sometimes very close to what COULD be considered deliberate wrecking.

I know where I went wrong Pantera. In most cases it isn't thought of because most of my mistakes are small ones. You give me a situation where I delibrately wreck anyone and I'll eat some humble pie right here for all of you. These two reports mostly focus on people getting around me and not doing it the right way. These are situations outside of my control. I am not going to give my position away. I drive a wide car. The difference is that in LFS you can make stupid attempts that you would never try in real life. When I race I've been in situations like that and the drivers make the right decisions because the car is at stake. Stoney's incident was different because I think anyone would have tried that so I definitely don't care about that one, but in regards to Flip: he wouldn't try that move on a real circuit. I try and race in LFS like I race in real life (albeit I have a lot more planning and practice time in real life) I don't make gung ho video game passes. I dont risk the car to go as fast as I can possibly go in a race. That's a big reason why im in 4th or 5th most of the time.

As for my comments on Monico; you have taken these out of context. It's an example of a closed track with cars on it that would be allowed to WD. Yes, I realize there is a gargantuan difference between FIA and F500.

Ironically the terms of running in this league were reading the rules that the end race procedures weren't in.

In closing, I feel completely justified in my actions in the 3rd round. If its not universally recieved thats fine by me. Then my appeal goes away. Dazza, you and I haven't raced side by side yet but if we do I'm sure you will find that if you make realistic decisions we won't have any problems at all.

Christ thats a hell of a post to get through, but to me one major thing is apparent to me:

In none of this is anything Red's fault.

Im going to start with a warning (again).

Quote :

It's really simple. Kevin Higgens (Stoney) owns racealliance.com. Thats you guys (drivenbypassion). This is by nature a conflict of interest. The fact that you keep the ajudicators anonymous is ever MORE suspect. It's very much like Dick Cheney and Haliburton. He doesn't own any part of the company right now but people still think he is getting something because he used to be the CEO. In this case, this is such a massive conflict of interest and it is so easily solved by using a mediation service that is completely unrelated to dbp or racesim or you. As for you (Stoney) saying in a previous post that you just own the site and that its an ex-racer judging staff; I just don't believe you.

Believe me or not, thats your call. At the end of the day, what you read in the RaceAlliance reports are probably what will be will be etc. However, Dont use my name again in public. I hope you understand me.

1.) You even spelt my name wrong.. But dont worry, thats the last time you will use it here on these forums. I have not once used a read name to refer to anyone and I would be pleased if you would uphold that same moral standard.

2.) I am a driver for a team called drivenbypassion. I registered the domain name for RaceAlliance.net.

3.) (Ok, I said two mistakes, but while im here in list form, lets list the things we wont mention again huh Red). IGTC.. Do a superb job. Its clear that you reference them because you like thier rule set and the way the do things.. If you havent already, go sign up. I know the guys who run that series well, ive helped them out with their software and servers. However, as far as their rulebook goes... It DOES NOT APPLY TO F504. Period. End of this particular discussion, I see no reason for this to be mentioned again.

If you do not like that.. etc etc. End of.

Quote :

I attended the first session and was never told nor briefed of end race procedures. I was just asked if I had read the rules (ironic). That race, I speced out after the race was over. No one had a problem. No one mentioned it. Then when I make it to the podium I do the same thing and it becomes an issue. I don't sit around after the race looking at cars. I'm adjusting the setup. I don't have a lot of time in the week to practice so that is why my first race is usually my worst. So I miss a lot of the post race stuff for the first race. I think Stoney, that you really misrepresent my position on this. I think you feel like you told me about end race procedure. You didn't. Now I know, and I follow that procedure. I'm not a rule breaker by nature.

Fair play, hold my hands up here. I didnt notice you at the first session of the series. What you do after you cross the finish line, is your business. AFTER You complete the Session like the rest of the drivers. Being aware of what they are doing etc, you get me? Have you never wondered what the other drivers were doing after the race?

Quote :

How is this inconsistent.
-snip-

As this report has been closed for over a week, is there any chance you would let it die? Pretty Please?

Quote :

Had it been cleanly done I'm sure Stoney could use it to pick up girls because it was so sexy.

Ok, thats two things you have now posted that really have nothing to do with anything. Please dont give me a third.

Quote :

-snip-
Racing isn't personal.
-snip-

Then dont make it so.

(With regards to your reply to flip), can you tell me why it is that you cannot see how you yourself could have avoided an incident there? Not that you should have. Personally, im used to friendly racing, were people care about the quality of the racing they are giving others. I have to accept that not everyone is going to take to the track like that. But you know, there was once a time were people did care.

EDIT: Ive been through this reply and stripped out the bits I shouldnt have posted. Full results will be out by this time tomorrow. Agree with them or not.. This will be over then. I really dont want the conclusion of this series overshadowed by this crap or anything else. I want people to be able to race each other without thinking "oh no, something is going to happen again here".

This series was fun before that guy came in. There was never any problem, or any report. But now he's spoiling it all. Can't we just get rid of him? It's clear he's not going to change his behavior, so why the f* do we have to cope with this ****?

I think what it is more than anything Flip, is the non posting of the after race proceedure, which is causing most of this shit. - No one else has said a thing. After the first race, and the messages I posted to (complete the return to the pits).. Everyone, well almost everyone did.

And the real reason for it, is simply, if there was ever any highlights made of the series, its a nice way to end rather than with cars unrealisticly teleporting to the pits, or crashing as they do in pick up races.

The problem is with LFS, there are no built in consequences for after flag behaviour.

Perhaps if I appologise and reinstate Red's points, remove all the penalties etc, things will go back to being the way they were in the first two meetings of the season. Perhaps this really is a dummy thing.

Meh, each to their own. Simple fact is, its really not as fun as it was. When the fun goes, so does my motivation.

Now tonight, im out at a family thing. But before I leave, I think ill post the results.

Come on, Stoney, it's not the only thing! The guy thinks it's perfectly acceptable to crash someone in order to keep his position! And the way he justifies his acts demonstrates that he's either stupid (expecting me to jump on the brakes with two wheels on the grass at Blackwood, which would have taken out the both of us) or dishonest (claiming that the bridge is the narrowest part of South City when we all know that there's more than enough room there for two cars).

When you and I are alongside a car, we adapt our line and if needed our speed to take that other car into account and give it room, don't we? But he doesn't. He just keeps his line like he was alone on track, expecting the other car to do all the work to avoid crashing into him. And he's not even smart (or honest) enough to see (or admit) that this is blocking!

If I was driving like he does, I would have crashed him into the wall when he passed me on the outside of T1 in the first lap of the second race. Just imagine we all drove with his standards: no one would finish a race!

The funny thing Flip... well I dunno how funny it is, but late in the race, just after Red had put a lap on me.. He was very slow. Slow enough that I could and did catch up and repass. Of course, having to let him go again because of blue flags etc.

But at that same point where you and Red had an incident earlier, Red and I had one too.. Except, the funny part of this one was that Red drove into the wall to the right, Flipped his car over the top/front of mine and landed in the barrier under the bridge.

I had to stop my car, while he rejoined, very close to the path of the Leading car. Now, that would have been funny.

--

Regardless of all this, nothing I or anyone else says is going to change everything. Ive not yet heard back from RaceAlliance over the two reported incidents from Thursday's race, and as this Appeal is regarding last weeks racing, I believe its safe for me to assume that the outcome of said reports wont change any of the finishing orders from this week's results..

So im going to post them up before I go out. I'll add in the reports when I receive the data.

First, I'm sorry Stoney. Your name comes up with the emails so I didn't know there was an issue posting it. You have my apologies and an edit to take care of the problem.

I appreciate your candor, and I think you finally understand me. Racealliance is a mediation service. You mediated against my favor for the racing incidents. Thats life. Whether they are good calls or bad calls is irrelevant. That is why I didn't put in an appeal for either of them. The fact that the call was made is good enough for me, regardless of my opinion of them. You hit the nail on the head when you said it was about the post race procedure. I just feel robbed when I get penalized for something that wasn't really communicated to me. I only ask that whatever your post race procedure is it should be in the rules so that there is no misconception. I didn't really understand what you meant when you were speaking for changing things back to the first to sessions; I didn't even know there was a change. I may seem difficult but in reality I just fight for things that I don't think are justified. Lastly, this is a fun series and if it really irked me so bad about the judgments and the people I was racing with I wouldn't come back. But I do, so I give you my graciousness and respect that you take your time to run this series.

Flip,

I'm not taking this personally. I'm sure you are a pretty nice guy in life but I think that your maturity level is lacking. Your opinion of me really doesn't bother me. The fact that you can't look at these incidents that we've had from a purely analytical sense perplexes me. In any case, despite your general misgivings I will give you my best attempt at a reasonable explaination. You say that I'm stupid for expecting you to save yourself from a bad situation that you put yourself in. I guess I don't really understand why I would be the stupid one in that equation. You attempt an outside pass that can't work and drive off track in the pit exit area; yet you expect me to react to that lunacy? I didn't put your wheels in grass and you certainly had more than enough time to realize that your so called pass was doomed. As for the most recent race, I thought I gave you enough room to let you pass. I certainly tried. This computer simulation is difficult because it isn't very good for distance perception. If the replay comes up and there isnt a car length there, I will gladly take any penalty I get.

Back to Stoney: Trying to give you room. I just scrubed the wall. Thats a hard turn to take flat out on the inside so I was giving you as much room as I could.

Oh boy! OK, I didn't want to lose my time answering your bullshit point by point, but since you're insisting...

Quote from redexplosion :

Flip you catch a draft on me at the start. You go way into the pit exit zone thats technically off track. You make contact with me. I see you and wonder what you are trying to do out there. I keep driving. You push to get side by side but never really do. You run out of pit exit paved area and you have grass ahead of you. You make a split second desicion to jump back on the track. Your front right tire contacts my back left. You go off. Then ironically you never even think about hitting your brakes until you are into the cone things at pit out. You are still going for it. If you had tried to correct you might not have lost a position at all.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I catch you on the straight because I have a better exit out of the last turn. But you keep your line like I'm not there while approaching turn one. You force me to avoid contact a first time 15 meters before the grass starts:



That's when I get off track for the first time (that is I cross the white line on the left in order to avoid hitting you). Then, instead of giving me some room, so I can avoid the grass, you keep squeezing me to the left, and you even go off track yourself (across the white line and right along the grass) to make sure I stay on the grass.



Of course, once I'm on the grass, thanks to your maneuver, I don't have enough grip to turn the corner and I can't avoid hitting you, which sends me back onto the grass. I don't see what the pit exit has to do with any of that! Then, once I'm on the grass I release the throttle completely but I don't try to brake because that's a sure spin. Note that I decelerate rapidly anyway and there's no way I could even think about taking you on the outside of the right hander. It's only when I hit the tarmac again that I start braking and drift into the pit exit to make sure I give enough room to whoever is coming from behind.



You'll never have me to admit that the fault was mine, here. And obviously, RaceAlliance didn't think so either.

Quote from redexplosion :

The fact that you can't look at these incidents that we've had from a purely analytical sense perplexes me.

Oh yeah? Look who's talking! And while you're at it, look at those screenshots one more time, and tell me again that you didn't push me onto the grass!

Quote :

In any case, despite your general misgivings I will give you my best attempt at a reasonable explaination. You say that I'm stupid for expecting you to save yourself from a bad situation that you put yourself in. I guess I don't really understand why I would be the stupid one in that equation. You attempt an outside pass that can't work and drive off track in the pit exit area; yet you expect me to react to that lunacy?

Again you're talking complete bullshit! I didn't attempt any outside pass, I attempted an inside pass, which you countered by pushing me onto the grass. Maybe you're dyslexic too? That would explain a lot of things. The only bad situation I put myself into was thinking that I could have a clean race with you. Since the racing had been very fair and clean until you joined, I can't be blamed for assuming that it would remain so. But now I know what to expect from you and I'm not sure I'll take part in the next race. Maybe your behavior on track and here is good for your ego, but mine doesn't need that at all. It's only a loss of time to me.

Quote :

I didn't put your wheels in grass and you certainly had more than enough time to realize that your so called pass was doomed.

*sigh* Screenshots.

Quote :

As for the most recent race, I thought I gave you enough room to let you pass. I certainly tried.

You gotta be kidding me, here, right? Look at these screenshots!



There's room for six cars on your left, but still you're turning to the right when you should be going straight at best, FFS! Again, this is blocking.

And I didn't even talk about turn 1 on the first lap, where you hit me, causing me to lose 2 positions, when you had lots of room on your right!



I didn't invent any of this and the screenshots are here to prove it. And since I have absolutely no interest in arguing with you (nor even in discussing with you, now that I know you a bit more) I won't say anything else about these events. As I already said, you're not worth my time.

LMFAO you both made a drunk guy laugh/cry there thank you very much.

Case ****ing closed! haha

Well Flip if you don't really care about what have to say on the matter it saves me the time of showing you the screenshots that I believe prove my point. Agree to disagree.

In any case, has there been a ruling on this?

Not received anything as yet, when I do, I'll publish etc.

I've just been informed that RaceAlliance has made a decision over this matter, and so to this end I will close this thread and announce when I have published the related documentation.