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If Hitler Had Never Existed...
(54 posts, started )
Quote from Taavi(EST) :the genocide committed by Hitler was child's play

Typical

Everyone cries about Big Bad USSR that was "Terrorizing poor Estonians and Latvians and Ukrainians and everybody else", and nobody tends to think that their asses actually depended on Russians to save them from being wiped out during the war, and depended on USSR to feed them till '91...
I wouldn't be here reading something that wont ever happen.
Quote from somasleep :What's your scenario?

Charlie Chaplin wouldn't of been the last person on earth to be popular while sporting a toothbrush moustache.
Quote from squidhead :Everyone cries about Big Bad USSR that was "Terrorizing poor Estonians and Latvians and Ukrainians and everybody else", and nobody tends to think that their asses actually depended on Russians to save them from being wiped out during the war, and depended on USSR to feed them till '91...

That´s just utter bullshit. None (I mean not one single word) of what you just wrote is true. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Quote from Kalev EST :[/color] That´s just utter bullshit. None (I mean not one single word) of what you just wrote is true. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Uh huh... so you mean that Germany actually came to free you Estonians from... ehm... from what exactly? oh yeah... Independency
Quote from squidhead :Uh huh... so you mean that Germany actually came to free you Estonians from... ehm... from what exactly? oh yeah... Independency

What the hell?!?!?

It was the Russians who invaded us first. Then the Germans. And then the Russians again, then they occupied us for 50 years. And they (including you) have the nerve to call themselves heros and liberators. Estonia was economically equal to Finland before the war and look what a mess it was in the early 90´s. "Depending on Russians for food." Again what a load of bullshit.

It´s because the Russians invaded us longer and thus did much much more evil to us, we hate USSR more. They were both evil regimes and they should be both equally condemned. I can´t imagine anyone coming to this forum and defending the nazi regime. They would be banned instantly. And then you just stroll here defending the criminal USSR and noone in the Western world even lifts an eyebrow. Sad and sickening.
Quote from Taavi(EST) :While in Russia and the general public considers the people behind the soviet mass murders as heroes of WWII.

Winners write the rules...
Don't ruin an interesting topic guys keep the flames to low or none please I wanna hear more speculations and speaking of which changing a specific event in time or situations leads to the entire people to get affected All of you guys wouldn't have been born and we wouldn't even have this discussion. Stop and think now :P lol just kidding and yes we all are going to get affected.
#34 - Juls
Quote from squidhead :
Everyone cries about Big Bad USSR that was "Terrorizing poor Estonians and Latvians and Ukrainians and everybody else", and nobody tends to think that their asses actually depended on Russians to save them from being wiped out during the war, and depended on USSR to feed them till '91...

Pathetic to read such things from citizens of former USSR. You either did not have to suffer in your flesh from this regime, or you have to demonstrate something for (unclear) political reasons.
Or you are French.

Talking about Poland, over a population of 30 millions people, 5 to 6 millions died during the war, including 3 millions jewish polish citizens...while the country was half occupied by USSR. Where is the protection from USSR you are talking about?

Moreover, USSR took part in the slaughtering and destruction:
Here 1.5 million people were deported in 1940-1941 by USSR....when the "big bad" USSR was an ally of 3rd Reich and they were sharing the country. Many of those who came back came 10 years later, 5 years after end of war.
USSR slaughtered 24000 military officers to ensure the country would not be able to fight for it's independance after 3rd reich fall. This is known as Katyn.
When soviet troops came to conquer Poland (what you call free), there was an uprising in the capital because people wanted to take part to this fight and remain an independant country. Soviet troops waited 3 months on the opposite side of the river to be sure every fighter was killed by SS.
This is during this uprising that Hitler decided to destroy and burn every building of the city to give a "horrible exemple" for other cities. To have an idea of what happened, watch the movie "the pianist".
Civilians families were burnt in cellars with flame throwers.
From a 1 million population, Warsaw had about 10 000 inhabitants alive when the USSR troops arrived.

When USSR collapsed, the country was left with a destroyed economy, a destroyed environment, an average 65 years life expectancy.


It's totally unfair to say 7 millions people killed by Nazis were a child's play. There is no point comparing things like that. The truth is that Nazis commited horrible crimes all over Europe, and this is good it has been studied and revealed as clearly as possible. The truth too is that large scale slaughtering and crimes against mankind were commited too in USSR and China, and should be studied and revealed as clearly as the former ones. Your comment is the proof there is a lack of information and education concerning these crimes.
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(Juls) DELETED by Juls : dp
Quote from squidhead :Typical

Everyone cries about Big Bad USSR that was "Terrorizing poor Estonians and Latvians and Ukrainians and everybody else", and nobody tends to think that their asses actually depended on Russians to save them from being wiped out during the war, and depended on USSR to feed them till '91...

From Wikipedia:
Quote :
Soviet occupation

The Soviets reoccupied the country in 1944–1945, and further mass deportations followed as the country was forcibly collectivised and Sovietised; 42,975 persons were deported in 1949. Influx of labourers, administrators, military personnel and their dependents from Russia and other Soviet republics started, and by 1959 the ethnic Latvian population had fallen to 62%. During the Khrushchev Thaw, attempts by national communists led by Eduards Berklavs to gain a degree of autonomy for the republic and protect the rapidly deteriorating position of the Latvian language were suppressed.

I guess it was all peaches and cream for the the Latvians.
Quote from deggis :Winners write the rules...

yeah, thats why we sucked... twice..., ups sorry, the cold war was the third
#37 - 5haz
I'm pretty sure that things would'nt be too different if Hitler had'nt existed.

The treaty of Versailles peed off a lot of Germans, and it wasn't just Hitler that wanted Germany to rise up and get it's revenge, right after WW1 there were a lot of attempts to take over Geramny, not just Hitler, there were uprisings almost constantly in the early 1920's from both left ad right wing groups (Some parts of Germany were even taken over by communists at one point I think), so even if Hitler had'nt existed, I think there would have still been plenty of nutters who woul'd have started an uprising and taken over Germany and formed a dictatorship which would then starts a world war eventually, but not in the form of the Nazi party.

Perhaps, if Hitler hadn't risen to power, there might have been a communist uprising in Germany, eventually resulting in alliance with the USSR which probrably would have led to a longer cold war instead of a WW2.

Perhaps a civil war would have erupted in Germany in the early 1930's (due to the effects of the wall street crash causing problems for Germany, causing its people to turn to the extreme political parties), or early 1920's, as left and right wing groups struggled to gain power over Germany, perhaps Germany would split up as the states it was formed out of had uprisings and declared independance (similar to how Yugoslavia split up perhaps).

Technology would certainly not be as advanced, as said above in this thread, war drives the development of technology.

Aircraft would not be so advanced, jet engines would have taken longer to come into use, radar would also probrably have taken longer to develop, and the atomic bomb probrably would'nt have been develped so soon.

I reckon that the moon landings would probrably not have happened until the 1980's or later even.

Perhaps also, if WW2 had not occured, then the USSR would not have occupied Eastern Europe as the Red Army pushed the Germans back Westward, perhaps that would then mean that the Warsaw pact would not have been formed.

Perhaps Italy under Musolini would have started WW2 instead of Germany.

Who knows, there are so many different things that cause events in History to happen, so what would have happened is anyones guess.
Quote from squidhead :Typical

Everyone cries about Big Bad USSR that was "Terrorizing poor Estonians and Latvians and Ukrainians and everybody else", and nobody tends to think that their asses actually depended on Russians to save them from being wiped out during the war, and depended on USSR to feed them till '91...

You are right, that is the usual bullshit. But i wasn't implying anything about the occupation. The free market between Russia and the Baltic States/Eastern Europe during the soviet union really was good, the only bad thing about it was that it had no aim, nothing would have ever came from it, no progress, the collapse would have came anyway. If Russia would open the double customs now then the co-existing of the countries now with borders in place would be good for both sides.

What i was saying in my original post, was that everyone is talking about Hitler as he was the only bad guy throughout the 20th century and everything else was peaches and cream.
Edit: Let's not make this history lesson.
In short: If Germany would have never rose to military power it was during WWII, I'd be speaking russia right now.
Quote from Crommi :
I'd be speaking russia right now.

How does one speak a country?
#42 - Juls
Quote from Taavi(EST) :The free market between Russia and the Baltic States/Eastern Europe during the soviet union really was good, the only bad thing about it was that it had no aim, nothing would have ever came from it, no progress, the collapse would have came anyway.

For example, here we had the largest steel factory in Europe during USSR time (Nowa Huta). All steel produced here was going straight to Russia by train, and we received entire trains of mayonnaise or other useless things as payment. People here were dying of heavy pollution caused by steel factory, and nobody could find steel to make roofs. Only ***** mayonnaise, entire shops full of mayonnaise and not much to eat with it (most valuable goods were going to Russia too).

This is what you call good free market? looks very much like creative history.
Compare eastern european countries during USSR and now. Everything has improved dramatically as soon as USSR ceased to exist. Life level, health, environment...every single thing. And improvement came far before European Union integration.
There is absolutely no way someone can logically write USSR was helping eastern european countries. It is plain nonsense.
Quote from Juls :There is absolutely no way someone can logically write USSR was helping eastern european countries. It is plain nonsense.

That is very true, but it is giving a interesting history lesson of during/post WW2
Quote from Klutch :How does one speak a country?

In Soviet Russia, country speaks you.
As a german with grandparents from eastern prussia (Königsberg, today part of Poland) and as being related to Georg Elser (the brave man building the bomb in Munich before WWII began) I don't want to think about what could have been if Hitler got killed.
Some of you guys have good points, some of the stuff written here is utter crap and should be deleted immediately... e.g. the sh*t under the Rammstein post.
Fact is that in a way we still suffer from what our regime has done to people 65 years ago. Another fact is that several countries have not yet learned from the mistakes we've made. Germany has become a country that really tries to solve conflicts on a non-violent base (sometimes too fiffy soft for some other countries), we are tought to believe in everyone's dignity and treat everyone the same way. Sure, that doesn't work out all the time... but seeing the rise of right-wing pseudo-christian or muslim regimes in Poland, Italy, the USA and elsewhere makes us wonder if people from abroad still have the cruelties of several wars in mind...
Last but not least many countries have killed millions of people. China and America still kill people by stupid laws, Russia still kills people, look at Tibet and the British Colonies and South Africa and........... the list is endless.

I can't even say "don't let this kind of intolerance come to reign again", because it IS happening right now.
Only this time Germany is not THAT involved.

greetz

der butz
Quote from Xaid0n :We'd never have had the VW Beetle, or the Autobahn

This is too bad to think about! but maybe Ferdinand Porsche would of created something like this anyway? (VW)
I think the only like substantial difference would be that the persecution of the jews was a personal ambition of Hitlers, so whilst it's likely that there still would have been a war in Europe due to the political and social/economic situation in the various countries, it's far less likely that the holocaust would have happened. The biggest likely impact of that is that there would almost certainly be no state of Israel and therefore no middle east conflict and very likely no Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda. Or at the least it would have been far less likely to happen
Quote from gezmoor :it's far less likely that the holocaust would have happened

Maybe not exactly the same, but Europe in a whole was already saying "jews go away" (ironic - "jews go to Israel" it was then, "jews get out of Israel" it is now) - the levels of antisemitism in Stalin's Soviet Russia were escalating exponentially.

Quote from gezmoor :The biggest likely impact of that is that there would almost certainly be no state of Israel and therefore no middle east conflict and very likely no Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda.

Actually, there was conflict in the middle east before the creation of Israel. Quite a lot of it in fact - and at the time the UK was at the forefront of it.
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(MonkOnHotTinRoof) DELETED by MonkOnHotTinRoof
Quote from MonkOnHotTinRoof :Is it even possible to be quilty of anything in predetermined universe ?

Only if one is determined to be.

Guilt however is not a universal concept.

If Hitler Had Never Existed...
(54 posts, started )
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